Deer Hunting with Cast Bullets Questions

[jpuke]

I have been hunting deer for only the last six years, didn't start until I was 30 so I'm not experienced with a large number of cartridges or rifles.  I got my first two deer with a 30-06 but I had a real desire to get one with a bullet that I'd made myself so I picked up a 45/70 (Ruger #1) and proceeded to take three deer with it using the RCBS 45-405-FN bullet cast of near pure lead and paper patched.  The results were terrific:  45 cal entry hole and about a 1.25-1.5" exit on all three deer, only one shot required. 

I went back to the 30-06 for a season but realized how much meat I was losing after comparing the results to the deer harvested with the 45/70 in the previous seasons.  Last year I went back to a 45/70 (Marlin 1895) and shot three deer with it, same paper patched bullet reloads but this time the alloy must not have been right because I got virtually no expansion. However, the results were the same:  three dead deer, three shots, but I didn't like that the bullets didn't expand. 

Here's the actual question: Do those of you that hunt with cast bullets think expansion is necessary for deer?  I want to hunt this year with a plain cast bullet rather than the paper patched because they've gotten to be more work than I have time for.  I'm planning on loading the same RCBS 45-405-FN bullet to 1600-1700 fps with a gas check.

[jhalcott]

 I KNOW accuracy trumps expansion, so I try for the most accurate loads I can get. As far as expansion goes, it IS HELPFULL in dropping your deer QUICK. A nice flat point or hollow point can work towards this end. Another trick is the 2 part bullet where the nose is considerably softer than the base. I have killed a lot of deer with cast bullets and jacketed. Calibers from 22-250 thru the 45-70. Lots of deer with cast in .30-30, 308 and 30-06. IF (BIG IF) I am on public or crowded land, I generally use a jacketed bullet.I do NOT want to argue with some one about MY deer.
  A cast slug will penetrate more(usually) than a jacketed one and expand much less. That's why the old guys said you can eat right up to the hole! The bigger calibers(45-70 etc.) can work better with cast,BUT the 30 and 35 calibers do excellent work in MY hands. Try the 311041 cast of straight wheel weight alloy in your 30-06. Gas checked and loaded to about 2000/2200 fps. With this bullet I get exits about 1 inch in diameter out to about 150 yards. I also like high shoulder shots on deer or a perfect heart shot (rarely given).

[Graybeard]

I don't reckon anything I've shot with my cast bullets ever knew they didn't expand but I can tell you for sure they did not as my alloy is way too hard to expand at the velocity I run them. Just use a bullet with a decent meplat and expansion is not needed.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive havent seen many paper patch bullet designs that were good game bullets. Most are made for target and long range shooting. A good game bullet in the 4570 will have a decent metplat. It doesnt have to be huge but it needs at least some kind of a flat point design. Ive shot quite a few game animals with 4570s using cast. It allways did real well even cast hard.  A good lfn design is ideal but even the 405 rcbs round flat gas check bullet has put quite a bit of meat on my table. Ill say this. If you shoot something with that bullet and it doesnt die you did something wrong not the bullet. Ive fooled some with casting two part bullets with hard bases and soft noses and even hps in the 4570. they may give you a few more dead right there hits but ive yet to loose a deer bear or pig shot with a hard cast bullet.

[Nobade]

Here is a PP bullet with a good meplat:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-400P-D.png

I shoot lots of these, cast at .442" and patched to .449", in both my 45-70 rifles and 45 caliber muzzleloader.

Cast from 30:1, they expand very well at 1250 -1300 fps that I can produce with black powder and are extremely accurate to at least 300 yards.

For smokeless shooting, sizing that 30:1  RCBS 405 to .454" and patching it to .460" will allow it to be driven close to 2000 fps if you really want the recoil, but when it hits it expands violently and ends up looking like a silver dollar before penetrating very deep. But if made from air cooled wheelweights it will expand like a jacketed game bullet and penetrate very well though the nose will sometimes shed some pieces since WW metal is more brittle. Still kills things very well though.

[twoshooter]

I have killed a bunch of deer with 245 gr SWC flat base (Lyman 429421) and the Lee 305 gr GC in the 444 and a 457322 330 gr HP in a 45/70, all in the 1500 +- range, never had a problem. Cast from WW and quenched. No appreciable expansion. If it were a 30 cal you might worry, a 45, nah.

[Rooterpig]

Have shot a few deer and a boatload of pigs with a 300 grain non  expanding , flat point , water dropped cast bullet out of a 444 marlin. Hammers the deer and pigs. With a liver shot pig , I will find the pig within 20 yards. The three deer I shot with the 444 went from 0 to 30 yards.

[BBF]

Beartooth bullets casts a GC 30 cal 140 grainer with a good meplat.

[srussell]

a soft lead bullet , pure lead are 30-1  paper patched. will expand and flat stomp a deer. round are flat nose. i mean 60 million buffalo cant be wrong. on the other hand Veral Smith at LBT moulds makes a 400 grain bullet just for lever actions rifles with a large metplat. thats great for deer

[kbstenberg]

Why do you have a question! A. The deer died quickly.  B. 1 shot kills  C. I assume there was no lost animals  D. Minimal meat loss with front shoulder hit. (meat of lesser quality than hind)
If meat loss is a concern. You will have to go for a shot that looses less meat. Head or neck shot. I accept the meat loss factor for the front shoulder shot, versus the smaller aiming area for a head or neck shot. The only time I tried for a head shot I blew the jaw off of a deer. The sights and sounds of that animal haunt me to this day.

[jpuke]

I guess my question is more a matter of confidence.  Last year I thought I was hunting with softer bullets than I had but the results were still very good.  I had the question because I'm was wondering if a harder cast bullet (intentionally harder this time) would have a similar result. 

I haven't lost any animals yet with this cartridge.  (I might have lost one a few years back that I shot at with a handgun but I never found blood, animal, etc.)  At the very end of shooting light last year I took a buck that I thought was quartering away but he was actually quartering towards me.  The shot went straight behind the shoulder and rather than hitting the off shoulder as I had planned, it passed straight through the stomach/liver area.  That deer went farther than I would have liked and I had a little trouble tracking him in the dark but he was still recovered easy enough. 

[lrrice]

45 cal bullets are pre-expanded.  Look at an expanded 30-30 and its still smaller than an unexpanded 45-70.  In my experience animals shot through the vitals with a 45-70 don't take very many steps before they fold up regardless of bullet hardness.  The last elk I shot with mine walked about 5 steps and had a thumb size enter and exit wound behind the front shoulder.  The bullet broke one rib on the way in cottage cheesed the lungs and broke one rib on the way out.  The elk never even flinched.  Just took a few steps and collapsed.

[kbstenberg]

J   Fact; most if not all of your bullets have been through and throughs with soft bullets that have expanded. Correct. If you shot a harder bullet at the same velocity you would still get the th. & th. with LESS expansion which puts less shock into the animal and passably a lost animal because of the shock affect. just my 2 cents  Kevin

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Used to be all that was had was had with cast bullets, hence the heart shot and tracking skills.


I've killed deer with Pure Linotype 150 gr bullets in .308 from a 30-30.  I know there was no expansion. 


Alan