For The Love of a Schuetzen Rifle !

[John Boy]

When the former owner passed the rifle to me, the 1st thing I did was drop the finger lever to determine the caliber ...

... A Big Hole, Caliber Unknown

Then I looked the rifle over more closely because it sure was much nicer than the picture which enticed me to buy it ...


OH NO - No Rear Sight!

A Tyrolian Bavarian Rollover Cheek Piece and of German Vintage.  The butt plate was not a double hook which is the Swiss style

A Martini Falling Block Action, not of the German System Aydt Design

A finely designed double set trigger assembly - later determined that the trigger pull is less than 2 ounces

Left receiver engraving - the German Beer Lady, known as Schuetzen Lisle 

Right receiver - the mythical boy known as Pan


A beautiful rifle, including a bright mint bore but... so much to do in order to be able to shoot it:
* Caliber - determined from the barrel marking that it was a 375 caliber.  then slug the bore from the breech and muzzle to exactly determine the land/groove dimensions finding out the barrel has a tapered bore!
* Chamber Cast - needed to determine exactly what 375 caliber.  Based on the cartridge dimensions of the cast, it is a 9.5X47R.  An obsolete blackpowder caliber designed in 1880 of which there are RARE loaded rounds in any cartridge collections or for sale from cartridge vendors.
* Brass - For the cases, had 2 options: reform them from 11mm Lebel or search the Internet for available obsolete brass.  BERTRAM! From 3 different vendors, found the last 80 cases in the US at an average price of $3.90 per cartridge.  When I slid the 1st empty case into the chamber and closed the block ... Perfect! 
* Reloading Dies - Only source for this caliber is CH4D.  Called and Mrs Davidson said - 'We have 2 sets in stock."  Sold and very happy.
* Find a diopter rear sight - Call Bill Loos!  He is a German sight collector.  Bill, said - send the receiver to him because he will have to modify the foot - elevation screw adjustment - and platform to the rifle.  Off it went and here is the original German rear sight diopter that I chose ...




* Bullets:  There are no current bullet pictures - no bullet makers and no mold makers of the 9.5X47 in existence in current times!  It is an 1880's short life span blackpowder bullet and very few Schuetzen rifles in existence of that caliber.

Now, discussing the caliber on the ASSRA forum, one of the members searched through his reference books and found a 1914 bullet catalog with pictures and dimensions of the bullet - all in German and millimeters!  So, the next step was translation!  In addition, one of the ASSRA members has the software to diagram bullets.  We are presently in the process of exactly calculating the bullet dimensions to the chamber cast of the rifle.  When satisfied - have a custom mold made   

Then finally - cast some bullets - make the reloads with blackpowder and off to the range to shoot the rifle ... which probably hasn't been fired in close to 100 Years!  Todate, putting all the items together for a complete rifle, except the reloads has been 4 months!

For The Love of a Schuetzen Rifle !

[Ranch13]

There's a small gathering of schuetzen shooters here that might get a real bang out of your rifle..http://historicshooting.com/mybb/forum-29.html

[BBF]

All that should have been a good sized hit in the wallet." Ach du Lieber" !!  Loose Trans.  "Oh my Dearest."

[John Boy]

BBF, yes there is some money invested in the rifle and the accessories.  But I spent substantially less than it would cost me to have just the butt stock alone duplicated with the configuration - checkering and carving
I view the rifle as an appreciable investment and don't have doubts it won't be a good shooting rifle also

[BBF]

JB:
 
I love beautiful gunwork as well. There is a point with me where I would not take the firearm outside much less hunting because of the value.

[John Boy]

For the First Time on the Internet ... And in this Century
Fully Loaded 9.5X47R Loaded Rounds 

[/b]




Details:
* Bertram 9.5X47R Head Stamped Brass
(Annealed - Chamfered ID and OD)
* Accurate Mold Bullets - 210.gr
* Primer - CCI BR2
* Powder - 46gr KIK FFg, lot 2010 ... filled to 1/2 of neck length and vibrated to settle
* Compression - 0.01
* Loaded rounds seated perfectly in chamber
* Head space - Zero with closed action

Preparation of rounds had one glitch: the CH4D seating die plug put a ring on the bullet nose.  So ... filled the plug cavity with Hot Glue and while warm turned the bullet nose into the glue - Perfect Fix!

Next objective - Range Test ...
Now, need advice for a smokeless reload using this bottle neck case - case capacity, 56.98 gr water volume and the 210gr bullet?  Only loading data source anywhere is in Donnelley's Cartridge Conversion Handbook by the author:
175gr Lead - 25.5gr IMR 3031

[Ranch13]

John find you a Speer #7 reloading manual and read George Nonte's chapter about loading for the old timers.. It gives the formula there for safe loads with 2400 and 4198.

[Lead pot]

My log on minutes ran out since the winter of 2002 and had to get a new pass word, couldn't remember it 
But I just had to get on here to complement John on his fine new toy.
I always thought about this caliber being a fine mild recoiling caliber with the large volume base and long neck but I stayed away from it because of the old Mauser and Maynard head it has.
John keep us updated on your progress on this caliber. I always have had a soft spot for the old bottle neck cartridges.
 
Kurt

[John Boy]

Kurt, thanks for the kind words and Yes, I'll update this thread as events progress.  As nice as the rifle is and the work to get to the point of a loaded round ... if it doesn't shoot good, a good bottle of Scotch - off to the basement and cry my eyes out!  Wall hangers are not in my vocabulary!
BTW, if the head goes south on these cases I'm out $3.90 each!  And there are no more Bertrams available.  Add, the reforming work using  43 Spanish brass is a pure PITA process

Don, Nobad on Cast Boolits has the QUICKLoad software.  He said the caliber database has the 9.15X47R in it.  He graciously offered to work up a load in 3031 and 2400.  So I sent him the details to do the calculation.  One reference I thought would have data would be Sharpe's Handbook - NADA.
In the meantime, the caliber was a 1880 BP round and I have no trepidation shooting it as such now too.

[Ranch13]

John you can also go with a 35% of the bp charge as maximum for 5744.

[Lead pot]

I wouldn't put to much faith in Bertram brass. I never had much good luck it holding up.
I dont know what the rim thickness is but Huntington has .44 basic brass with the correct base diameter of .512" and maybe you can work with the cartridge shoulder for the head space. The .44 basic rim thickness will be about .080" thick.

[Ranch13]

What aabout the Jamison C sharps 44-90 brass? Wouldn't that have the .080 rim thickness?
I had some Bertram for the 8x58r dane and every other case split length wise.

[Lead pot]

My Jamison .44-90 BN ran .078"
The .44-77 Jamison brass I just finished shooting for the first time ran from .076" to .081"   I don't know if it was the first batch I got from them that had the variance or the second batch. WHen I shot the first time using it I could not close the breach.11 out of 100 I could close the breach.
I had to work down the head, some of the head stamp was almost off before I could close the break. But yes the .44-77 brass would work for the base diameter but I doubt the Mauser head is to thick and the 77 brass would give him a lot of head space and pull the brass in two.

[rctsat]

It appears I have this same rifle but only very minor engraving on the metal on mine.  I have been researching it for a while.  Does  your have the gunsmiths name on it.  Mine has K. Stiegele and if you hunt around you can find some interesting information on him. Luckily mine has the rear sight, it has unusual method of adjustment. He was a very famous gunsmith of the time.  Made double rifles as well for high ranking customers.  Now I have to see if I can find some brass or form some for myself.  How does yours shoot, I would love to see one of the targets.

[rctsat]

Sorry that is the best photo I have at this time I inventoried my guns not to long ago and that's where the photo came from.  Thanks

[John Boy]

It appears I have this same rifle but only very minor engraving on the metal on mine.

Meaning a German Schuetzen rifle or the same caliber -9.5x47R?
The name M. Gruny is on mine from Inglestadt Baveria

[rctsat]

From looking at your loaded rounds and the cast of my chamber I made they look the same.  I Wrote to Bertram two weeks ago and they have the brass in stock I think it's around 38.00 per twenty and they said the shipping would be about 28.00 for up to 100 rounds.  Have you shot yours yet, what were the results, I'd love to see the targets

[John Boy]

Have you shot yours yet, what were the results, I'd love to see the targets

rct, I'd love to see some targets also.  Unfortunately, experienced a major set back ... Super Storm Sandy!