Author Topic: NRA gone too far?  (Read 1507 times)

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Offline Mike in Virginia

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NRA gone too far?
« on: September 25, 2012, 06:28:57 AM »
 I think about stuff too much.  Some of you probably get one of NRA’s magazines.  Mine is American Rifleman.  Within the first few pages of each issue, we see an article called “The Armed Citizen,” which reports factual cases where homeowners and shopkeepers have protected themselves from felons by the use or display of firearms.  In recent months, I started noticing that of the several instances cited in each issue, the writer reported the action during the scary encounters and then stated “the perpetrator was held at gunpoint until police arrived. ”
So I thought about that too much and ended up writing a letter to that particular department of the publication, and explained that perhaps such a well respected and powerful organization should refrain from similar statements, because lots of people hold the NRA in high esteem as the protector of their firearm rights.  Should the NRA, I asked, be reporting the incidents where subdued and unarmed felons are held at gunpoint by citizens?  Most of those incidents involved break-ins by armed bad guys, and upon the display of a weapon by the intended victim, and in sometimes the actual shooting of the bad guy, he is subdued and “held at gunpoint pending arrival of police,” or some such wording.  Although it might be argued that NRA is only reporting and not promoting holding a person at gunpoint.  But I think they are promoting it, albeit vaguely.  They are saying as much as possible to impart the need for the citizens to have guns, without actually saying it directly.  “Gunpoint” is powerful language, and it imparts a visual message to the reader, and if the reader holds the NRA in high regard, as I do, he might say to himself, “Good for the victim.  He turned that situation around with the use of his gun.  He made a citizen’s arrest and kept the bad guy at gunpoint.  That’s what I would do in a similar circumstance.”
Now the question I fixated in my brain I can seem to rid myself of is, what if the subdued and now unarmed felon being held at gunpoint, says, “Things ain’t working out to well for me today.  I don’t think I’ll wait around here for the police to come and take me away.  Later dude.”  At that point he turns to leave. 
What to do?  Was the holding at gunpoint merely a bluff?  Fine when it works, but what about when it does not work?  Do you shoot the felon who has already stopped being a threat?  In many of the cases the victim would have been justified to shoot earlier in the situation, but that moment has come and gone.  No threat, no shooting.  Or maybe I read too much into those scenarios.  Maybe the bad guy had refused to leave and the gunpointing was necessary to stay safe until police arrived. 
It’s a little different when an officer makes an arrest.  He (the police) is already there.  Upon disarming the bad guy, he goes into the restraining mode by whatever means necessary. 
Anyway, I got no response to my letter to NRA; however, I’ve noted they stopped using that terminology.  Now they say, “the perpetrator was detained until police arrived.”
Just a little of the rambling activity that runs through my brain.     

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 07:02:35 AM »
IF I were holding someone at gunpoint' it would be because I had good reason to. If they move in a way that is threatening or other than I tell them, and that could in any way endanger me, I'll be In Fear For My Life and they'll probably get shot several times.
 
works for the cops, always. would it work for me, too?
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline mechanic

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 07:49:05 AM »
I think you are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.  If holding someone at gunpoint until the police arrive works, so be it.  If they run, they run.  In either case, the victim being armed turned them from being a victim to controlling, as best they can a bad situation.
 
Would I shoot a fleeing robber?  Nope, but thats beside the point.
 
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Offline Silvertp

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 08:18:05 AM »
Mike in Virginia

I think you did a good job describing what could happen in a home invasion, and eventually came up with a correct answer.

Due to your firearm / training you successfully stopped what was likely a frightening and dangerous situation.  Until the police or reinforcements arrive, you are pretty much bluffing.  I think a call to 911 while describing in bad guy will up the odds he will be captured if he decides to walk away.

If the fella that broke into your house decides to finish what he started and threatens you then its time to protect your family and yourself.

Silvertp

Offline Land_Owner

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 03:09:37 AM »
Unlawfully and forcibly attempting to or entry into my FL home, car, or office (same goes for 22 other States), and "The Castle Doctrine" < http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html > asserts that the Perp is "presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence" and the use of force, up to and including deadly force, is authorized.  "Stand Your Ground" is paragraph (3) of the linked "Castle Doctrine" statute and asserts you are not required to retreat and may meet force with force, even up to and including deadly force.

Most folks seem to use the gun for lawful defense, up to "brandishing" force, and the result for them is acceptable.  EVERY INSTANCE IS DIFFERENT.  I have never been confronted by unlawful or forcible entry.  I can't tell you how I acted or may act.  I hope I am 1.) never confronted, and 2.) never placed in the position to make that split second decision.  As for the actions of others, that is for THEM to decide for themselves.   

My Orlando Office (RS&H, Inc.) has already been the site of deadly work place violence with 4 wounded and one dead when a former Intern, that my Associates had initially hired and subsequently determined the man was not capable of performing the work, let him go, returned after two years to shoot them.  Many internal security changes have occurred since then.  My close friend from 7 years in the office right next to mine, and Associate permanently reassigned by request to work in that office, was THE target of the shooter for having hired and fired him.  My friend escaped being shot by the slimmest of margins squeezing between two file cabinets. Twice the shooters shoes were seen under the desk looking for him during the rampage.

Offline m-g Willy

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2012, 06:17:14 AM »
In my state we have the castle doc.
BUT !!!
If you come home and catch a bad guy beating your wife with a ball bat and he happens to turn and attack you with the bat,,, and after taking 5-10 hits all over the body you manage to get your hands on your gun.
The bad guy sees the gun, drops the bat and turns to run.
So once the bat was dropped and bad guy turned.....
( LEGALLY) =  ,, homeowner has no right to harm Mr. Bad Guy.
(LEGALLY) =homeowner can not phyiscally detain Mr.Bad Guy.
(LEGALLY) = all homeowner can do is watch Bad guy walk away.
 
 

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2012, 08:42:18 AM »
Willy, I don't think you would be breaking the law if you detained a person who'd tried to harm you in your home.  If he turns to flee and is no longer armed, I see no reason why you couldn't hold on to him.  That would be Gomer Pyles "citizeds arrest," and okay with the cops.  But such a detention by force would be difficult at best.  If you decided to hold him at gunpoint and he complies, all is well.  But if he doesn't comply, you wouldn't shoot at him because he's not a threat.  He is merely a felon. 
I think if you point a gun at a person, you should intend on shooting him if the threat doesn't end immediately.  If the threat is gone, the gun should point some other direction or be put away.  No threat, no shooting allowed.   

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2012, 08:56:16 AM »
Mike:
"I think if you point a gun at a person, you should intend on shooting him if the threat doesn't end immediately.  If the threat is gone, the gun should point some other direction or be put away.  No threat, no shooting allowed."
 
I agree with the first part (I would have no problem protecting myself or others) but not the second.
 
If the threat is gone that doesn't mean it can't arise again in a split second of inattention.
I think I would choose to keep the gun pointed in his direction until he is either gone completely or the police arrive.
I am not sure how many would chance walking away with a gun pointed at them.
 
 
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Offline Land_Owner

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2012, 10:25:51 AM »
In a reality where NOT running from the police in certain neighborhoods is considered by the Court as "inconsistent behavior", the pointing of a gun at a fleeing felon should be considered as "inconsistent behavior" NOT to shoot.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 10:58:28 AM »
If someone causes me to pull a gun then i fear for my life or safety or that of a loved one or one I am obligated to protect. If said bad guy commited a felony and I witnessed it then and only then can I arrest him as a citizen. I only have a right to protect myself otherwise. If bad guy says I'm out of here he can go. As long as he is not going in a direction that he can arm himself ot at me. I don't care if he goes , so much the better IMHO . Let the cops do their job.
As for the NRA they reprint not compose the story. I believe their point is to show the legal use of guns save lives.
 I would add in cases where a felony might not have happened holding someone aginst their will is kidnapping in some places .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline finisher

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 10:14:16 PM »
In my state we have the castle doc.
BUT !!!
If you come home and catch a bad guy beating your wife with a ball bat and he happens to turn and attack you with the bat,,, and after taking 5-10 hits all over the body you manage to get your hands on your gun.
The bad guy sees the gun, drops the bat and turns to run.
So once the bat was dropped and bad guy turned.....
( LEGALLY) =  ,, homeowner has no right to harm Mr. Bad Guy.
(LEGALLY) =homeowner can not phyiscally detain Mr.Bad Guy.
(LEGALLY) = all homeowner can do is watch Bad guy walk away.
****************
You bring up an interesting point and it has been the issue in question in many cases that are similar though not identical. The Trevon Martin fiasco comes to mind.


My advice to anyone that has doubts about such a situation is to take a criminal justice course in Technical Report Writing and and one that covers in detail, the legal use of deadly force and all the elements that must be be present in order for you to justify such force, in other words: not get charged.


The report writing class will teach you how the cops get away with murdering and assaulting  people by the skilled usage of wording in their written reports. Once you've learned to master it in written form, then, teach yourself how to apply these skills verbally.
It's not about right or wrong or even principle. It is about the interpretation and manipulation of the law, and it is what will make or break you in the police interview and in the court room.

Offline finisher

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 10:27:09 PM »
Mike in Virginia; don't ever let anyone raz ya for thinking too much. There is not enough broad minded, and deep thinking to go around these days. Seems to be in very short supply.


As long as you're willing to stand up to fire for what you believe while backing it up with fact, reference, and logic (minus the emmotional BS), there will always be some one who will listen, even if you don't see them.


You keep on looking deeper and broader and what you will see is the bigger picture and how we're all tied in in some way. Many cannot handle this picture because it can be intellectually and psychologically overwhelming.


Just don't spend too much time thinking if you ever do have to shoot someone.


Keep 'em coming.  ;) 8)

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2012, 07:54:06 AM »
castle doct. and stand your ground laws did not change what a citizen can do. What they do in most cases is restrict what police can do. They must have proof that the citizen did something illegal before arresting them. Before many citizens were arrested and drilled intio confessing or getting mixed up from abusive interrigation.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2012, 09:22:39 AM »
Willy, I don't think you would be breaking the law if you detained a person who'd tried to harm you in your home.  If he turns to flee and is no longer armed, I see no reason why you couldn't hold on to him.  That would be Gomer Pyles "citizeds arrest," and okay with the cops.  But such a detention by force would be difficult at best.  If you decided to hold him at gunpoint and he complies, all is well.  But if he doesn't comply, you wouldn't shoot at him because he's not a threat.  He is merely a felon. 
I think if you point a gun at a person, you should intend on shooting him if the threat doesn't end immediately.  If the threat is gone, the gun should point some other direction or be put away.  No threat, no shooting allowed.   
He moves, he dies.
Or as in other reports, often printed, is arrested at the hospital seaking service.
 
They have been writing those for decades, you are picking at a zit on a gnats buttocks.

Offline Squib

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2012, 07:30:43 PM »
I do see your point, it's a valid question because the liberal types would call it a dishonest kill, once unarmed.

my answer:  if they're getting up (against orders) after being "held at gunpoint", due to circumstantial necessity (the perp/s broke into your home) it is a matter of fighting for control of the weapon if the shot isn't fired.  why assume the terd/s wouldn't just beat the hell out of the person/s armed in self-defense, then take the weapon?  the better answer is to just kill the offender/s immediately, but if mercy is a must for someone's conscience, strike two should quelch that.  you cannot fire a warning shot at someone who isn't scared, and shooting to wound is not productive, death is the answer. 

you could sit on the offender to "control" them and then if the perpetrator tries to get up it's a "physical altercation" and therefore a fight for control of a firearm, and therefore a green-light to shoot for sure BUT it's a risk to the defender to get within arm's reach. 

THAT'S WHY THE CASTLE DOCTRINE IS IN PLACE!  I think that the NRA gets too "pristine" in how it's sometimes worded though- probably to keep us all from being so easily branded as gun-toting psychos. 

Offline jimster

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2012, 11:06:29 AM »
In the State of Michigan a citizen has the right to stop a fleeing felon, it doesn't matter what anyone else says, it's the law. This means the bullet can enter the backside and come out the front.  It was reported in our press this is exactly what happened a couple years back when a guy got a 12 ga. load fired into his back while trying to get out of the house after getting hit in the front once already, and again before that a year earlier a thug took a hit in the backside while trying to run away from a home they just broke into, no charges filed in either case, the felons were shot in the back while trying to flee, all legal here. Just make sure it's a felon who just commited a felony.
Not all states have this law, but this one does. You don't have to take any risks, but it's nice to know you'll be fine with the law if you don't want a bad guy roaming the neighborhood either that you just caught being a felon. Arrest them if you can, shoot them if you must, but don't let yourself get hurt or take any risks either...it's pretty much up to you in this state how you handle it.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 03:50:50 AM »
I do see your point, it's a valid question because the liberal types would call it a dishonest kill, once unarmed.

my answer:  if they're getting up (against orders) after being "held at gunpoint", due to circumstantial necessity (the perp/s broke into your home) it is a matter of fighting for control of the weapon if the shot isn't fired.  why assume the terd/s wouldn't just beat the hell out of the person/s armed in self-defense, then take the weapon?  the better answer is to just kill the offender/s immediately, but if mercy is a must for someone's conscience, strike two should quelch that.  you cannot fire a warning shot at someone who isn't scared, and shooting to wound is not productive, death is the answer. 

you could sit on the offender to "control" them and then if the perpetrator tries to get up it's a "physical altercation" and therefore a fight for control of a firearm, and therefore a green-light to shoot for sure BUT it's a risk to the defender to get within arm's reach. 

THAT'S WHY THE CASTLE DOCTRINE IS IN PLACE!  I think that the NRA gets too "pristine" in how it's sometimes worded though- probably to keep us all from being so easily branded as gun-toting psychos.
It's in place to make police have proof of wrong doing before an arrest in no way does it give a citizen the right to shoot someone. If you are legal in shooting someone before the law you still are if not then you still are not.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ironglow

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 04:23:18 AM »
  I  can see your point Mike....liberals will make hay over any possible smear they can create..  As far as the NRA..I think they just reprint and not rewrite, the stories.
  One thing to remember is if/when you have a perp at gunpoint...don't be too cool.  Perps are generally people who use psychology to abuse the innocent..they play those games regularly and have done so much of their lives. If you are too cool and composed they will probably figure you are a "thinking" type person..so are not likely to shoot them in the butt if they turn and leave..
   On the other hand, if you act as if you are hysterical..gun shaking so bad that it may just "go off" at any moment..they may just freeze where they are....too scared to move.  You can go back to "cool and collected" after the cops arrive.. ;)
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Squib

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2012, 06:47:15 PM »
reaction gap

thinking versus reflex, and an animal (violent perp) is not thinking (especially if drugged).  they just go for the gun and shoot if they get it, while you're thinking of the legal ramifications, safety of bystanders, etcetera.  whether you're fast or not the reaction gap will most likely get you.  if you don't understand what that means, read some massad ayoob books.

Offline ironglow

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2012, 12:27:27 AM »
Squib;
  What would you suggest in such a situation?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Squib

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Re: NRA gone too far?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2012, 05:20:31 PM »
shoot, examine, call the cops, open a diet coke, file a report, oil gun, go back to sleep