Author Topic: Empire of the In-Between  (Read 676 times)

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Offline two-blocked

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Empire of the In-Between
« on: November 02, 2012, 04:30:19 PM »
As anyone who rides Amtrak between New York and Washington knows, the trip can be a dissonant experience. Inside the train, it’s all tidy and digital, everybody absorbed in laptops and iPhones, while outside the windows an entirely different world glides by. Traveling south is like moving through a curated exhibit of urban and industrial decay. There’s Newark and Trenton and the heroic wreckage in parts of Philadelphia, block after block of hulking edifices covered in graffiti, the boarded-up ghost neighborhoods of Baltimore made familiar by “The Wire” — all on the line that connects America’s financial center and its booming capital city.
 
The weirdness of this juxtaposition is hardly acknowledged anymore, because we’ve all had a few decades to get used to it. But for most of the 180 or so years of the train line’s existence, the endpoints of this journey — New York and D.C. — were subordinate to the roaring engines of productivity in between. The real value in America was created in Newark’s machine shops and tanneries, Trenton’s rubber and metal plants, Chester’s shipyard, Baltimore’s steel mills. That’s where raw material was turned into valued products by hard-working people who made decent wages even if they didn’t have a lot of education. Generation after generation, and wave after wave of immigrants, found opportunity along the corridor. Washington collected the taxes and made the rules. Wall Street got a small commission for turning the nation’s savings into industrial investment. But nobody would have ever confused either as America’s driving force.
       
This model was flipped inside out as Wall Street and D.C. became central drivers, not secondary supports, of the nation’s economy.Now, on its route between them, the train passes directly through or near 8 of the 10 richest counties in the United States, but all of this wealth is concentrated near the endpointsof the journey: Manhattan’s satellites in northern New Jersey and the towns where lobbyists and government contractors live in suburban Virginia and Maryland. This is a geographic representation of a telling contradiction. For the past 30-plus years, through Republican and Democratic administrations, there has been much lip service paid to the idea that the era of big government is over. Long live free enterprise. And yet in the case of those areas surrounding the capital, wealth has gravitated to the exact spot where government regulation is created. Why? Because many businesses discovered that renegotiating the terms between government and the private sector can be extraordinarily lucrative. A few remarkable books by professors at N.Y.U.’s Stern School of Business argue that a primary source of profit for Wall Street over the past 15 to 20 years could be what I call the Acela Strategy: making money by exploiting regulation rather than by creating more effective ways to finance the rest of the economy.
       
But how do we make sense of what has become of the in-between? That was the challenge we posed to the South African photojournalist Pieter Hugo. This fall, Hugo spent two weeks documenting life along the corridor, focusing his gaze on what can be found roughly within sight of the train tracks. That was our animating idea and organizing principle: to stop and look carefully at what can be glimpsed only fleetingly from a passing train.
       
Though industrial decline can have a perversely romantic appeal, we weren’t especially interested in rehashing the sad state of old factories. Instead, Hugo sought out the everyday life that dwells in these fissures of the American economy: the retired factory worker still making his home in a neighborhood that has decayed around him, the kids playing on blown-out streets, the store that sells used tools.
       
This is an economy changing too fast for the residents to keep up. For many who live along the corridor, the central theme is the decline that’s all too visible. The old brick factory buildings with huge windows that gave workers light and air in a pre-air-conditioned world are boarded up, crumbling or, in a few of the luckier spots, being converted into condos. There’s also another, somewhat more hopeful story on display, though you have to look a little harder to see it. These are the decidedly unromantic houses of modern production: short, vast complexes, built without any nod to aesthetics. There are few windows in these buildings, because precision machinery operates best without the fluctuations in heat and humidity caused by exposure to the sun. They are one story high, because it’s too costly to build a second or third floor capable of withstanding the weight and pounding of massive machinery. There are some workers inside — there to make sure the machines keep running — but not many. These jobs, which go to people with advanced, post-high-school training, typically offer a good-enough wage to afford a house in the suburbs, far from the industrial zones that hug the rail line. The people who do make their lives right next to these factories — in Elizabeth, N.J., or Chester, Pa., say — generally can’t afford the technical schooling that would qualify them for jobs inside.
 
The atrophying of the country’s ability to “make real things” has been much lamented, but the truth is that U.S. manufacturing has never been stronger. While there are no universally accepted numbers, the United Nations Statistics Division calculates that the dollar value of goods made in America is at an all-time high of $1.9 trillion, just about even with China. The catch is that the number of American workers needed to create all thatvalue has dropped steadily. In the mid-1940s, more than half of the New Jersey work force was in factories; today around 7 percent do. Thereare the same number of manufacturing jobs nationwide as there were in 1941, when the country was just more than one-third its current population. For much of the 20th century — and especially in the boom decades of the ’50s and ’60s, when U.S. factories had little global competition — manufacturing provided something that simply doesn’t exist anymore: a job for anyone willing to put in a hard day’s work. The Boeing plant making Chinook helicopters outside Philly, the Johnson & Johnson campus in New Brunswick, N.J., the Merck plants in Rahway, N.J., and Fort Washington, Pa., and the acres of chemical and natural gas refineries throughout New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Delaware — they all tell the same story: a handful of highly trained workers guiding machines that return huge value to shareholders while all the time finding ways to produce more goods with fewer workers.
 
That doesn’t stop both presidential candidates from constantly invoking the magnificent working-class economy we once had and can have again, if only we give them our vote. Manufacturing nostalgia is as powerful as ever. But one more look out the Amtrak window reveals something else: the shiny new buildings that are actually filled with workers have nothing to do with manufacturing. They’re in the broad service sector, in the anonymous office centers that bloomed out of nowhere — near Metropark Station in New Jersey and in Claymont, Del., and Aberdeen, Md. — to hold law firms and engineering companies and I.T. firms. For people with advanced training, the service sector means an above-average wage, a below-average risk of unemployment and days sitting at a desk. For those with only a high-school degree or no degree at all, far fewer jobs are available, and the ones that are pay poorly and disappear quickly. Calling for a return to the days when everybody who was willing to put in a hard day’s work could make a good living at the factory is a fantasy, maybe a lie and certainly an implicit acknowledgment that nobody has any idea what to do with the underemployed in the slums of Trenton, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Southeast D.C. It’s safer to talk about Pakistan.
       
The contradictions along the line converge near the center, in the city that is arguably the most representative of our new and confusing economy. Wilmington, Del., has become wildly successful as the place where Wall Street and D.C. meet. In 1981, Gov. Pierre S. du Pont, who got to office, in part, because of his family’sold-economy wealth, pushed through the Financial Center Development Act, which led to the state’s new economic engine: regulatory arbitrage. For large financial firms, the state offers uniquely compliant rules (European politicians and economists talk, with horror, of the Delaware effect, which will inevitably lead toward ever-looser regulation). The state’s Web site claims that 63 percent of Fortune 500 companies and half of all publicly traded companies are legally incorporated in Delaware — “because we provide a complete package of incorporation services including modern and flexible corporate laws . . . [and] a business-friendly state government” — and yet only two have their headquarters there: DuPont and, notably, Sallie Mae, technically a private firm but one that owes its existence and profit to government guarantees. The rest of the buildings house tens of thousands of highly paid lawyers, accountants and other specialists engaged in the arcane work of taking advantage of flexible, business-friendly corporate laws.
       
After all those workers return to the wealthy suburbs at the end of the day, what’s left behind is one of the most dangerous cities in America, its unemployment stuck stubbornly two points above the national average. For those who live there, the future is grim. As DuPont’s C.E.O., John Challenger, who might as well have been speaking at any point in the past 30 years, said the week before last, the recent announcement of 1,500 layoffs “may be a harbinger of things to come.”
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/magazine/amtrak-industrial-corridor.html?pagewanted=1&smid=fb-share&_r=0

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 06:50:09 PM »
A Swedish millionaire sat next to an American millionaire on a plane. As they got to talking, they discovered that both of them were making about $1 million a year. The American asked the Swede what his overall tax rate was.
    "Around 54%," the Swede answered.
    "Good lord!" the American said. "How can you stand to pay so much tax?"
    "The taxes go for things like public healthcare and education," he explained. "Also for housing programs for the poor and disabled. It's for the public good."
    They talked more during the flight, but the American kept coming back to the Swede's tax rate, telling him he should be outraged. Finally, the Swede answered him again, saying, "In my country, my kids can go to public schools without bodyguards. I can walk down the street at night without much chance of being mugged. I much prefer the safety of a well supported society than to pay less in taxes and be a rich man surrounded by poor people--- that is a very dangerous situation!"

(From a news story on NPR.)
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

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Offline magooch

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2012, 07:16:05 AM »
 Yeah, if I were a liberal socialist, I'd be checking out Sweden.  Load Sweden up with a bunch of illegal invaders, welfare queens and drug pushers and then tell us what a utopia it is.
Swingem

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2012, 07:48:57 AM »
 
   I don't mean  to pile on Mr. Chung, but it is laughable to compare Sweden (or any of the Norwegian countries) to the U.S.  The  Norwegian countries are virtually countries  of one race, one religion, and one culture.  They also have among the best educated populations of the world.  They do NOT allow just anyone to become immigrants or citizens, and they do not have over 10 million illegal aliens sitting in their countries.  They do not, and never have, characterized themselves as "a melting pot of the world." 
 
    As previously noted, drop about 10 million illegal aliens in their countries, of different culture, and about 20 million professional welfare abusers and criminals, and see how long they and their dream system would last.  About 6 months, . . . maybe.
 
   The same goes for Australia, Canada and Japan.  Extremely strict immigration laws, rigorously enforced.  Virtually counties of one race, one religion, and one culture.  (Except of course, up to 50 years ago, the Canadians thought that they had real problems because Quebec was, oh my gosh, French and Catholic!)
 
   Mr. Chung, you are certainly free to emigrate to those peaceful paradises.  Oh wait, you can't own a handgun in any of those countries, and rifles are extremely restricted in all of them as well.
 
   And by the way, go ask the Germans whether they would like to send back the tens of millions of folks they let in from Turkey before and after WWII, who have failed to "blend" and have a different religion and culture.
 
  Best Regards, Mannyrock
 
     

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2012, 12:44:18 PM »
 America has chosen a different path. We celebrate the individual not the collective our system is based on the freedom to live as well as you are able.
 
 It stands to reason that those who are of average abilities should lead average existances. Those who are of limited ability are given limited resources. Which, by the way, could be counted as extravigant in most parts of the world,  though not all. I see no reason to treat everybody to the same life experience.
 
I should not be compelled to the same guilt ridden existance as you CDQ. If you feel compelled to help those less fortunate , God Bless You, the world is a better place because of your work. Sleep soundly knowing you have done your bit to make the world better. You should not however extend your philanthropy to include the fruits of my labors. My business is absolutely none of yours, sir. I shall support what I choose to, at the rate at which I choose to do so.
 
Why should there not be a place that chooses to not be just like X where they give away milk and honey for the low low price of personal liberty?  God Bless America and no one else.
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Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2012, 01:29:13 PM »
Assume you make a million dollars a year in profit.
Now assume you have to pay 50% tax. That would leave you with $500,000.
If you had 5 employees making $20,000, That means each one made you $200,000.
Now, since employee's salaries are a business expense, say you hired 5 more. That would give you more deductions equaling $100,000--- your $500,000 after taxes just became $600,000, and next year your pre-tax income would be $2 million. Your business grows, you give twice as many people jobs--- because it's more profitable for you.

That's the setup that made America great. That's what does not happen with trickle down economics, because the tax breaks and lower taxes for the rich have removed any incentive they ever had to create jobs. It's that simple. Raise the taxes on the top 2% and the country's economy will start to grow again. Do the math.

"I could double these figures and it would still be a fact."  Samuel Clemens
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Casull

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »
Quote
It's that simple. Raise the taxes on the top 2% and the country's economy will start to grow again. Do the math.

 
 
 
Now that is funny.  I don't care who you are.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Casull

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2012, 02:22:56 PM »
Quote
Now, since employee's salaries are a business expense, say you hired 5 more. That would give you more deductions equaling $100,000--- your $500,000 after taxes just became $600,000,

 
 
That is pure nonsense.  Yes, you have $100,000 more in deductions, but you also have $100,000 more in EXPENSES.  It would NOT increase your after tax income by $100,000.  With economic thinking like that, is it not apparent why liberals are in government, rather than in business.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2012, 03:57:15 PM »
Point is, if you can make a million clear with 5 employees, you can make 2 million clear with ten. You're trying to introduce imaginary figures .
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2012, 04:05:01 PM »
Point is, if you can make a million clear with 5 employees, you can make 2 million clear with ten. You're trying to introduce imaginary figures .
If that sort of math held true you would be a dumb SOB to not hire tens of thousands of people. You are trying to introduce imaginary figures as well sir.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2012, 04:13:57 PM »
It's obvious you never ran a business.  If there are no customers to by your goods, or services, you can't just hire people.  To clear $1, this particualar business probably had a gross income of $10 million, with $9 million being expenses, for salaries, taxes, purchases needed for the business to operate.  The feds and the liberals look at the $10 million, not the $1 million profit.  That is only a $10% profit.  Apple computer made about 400% profit last year, yet they make their phones and computers in China.  No one rags at them, because they were ran by a liberal owner.  Same with GE, the largest manufacturer in the world, yet paid NO taxes in America.  Keep on blaming the rich, and you run them to some Carribean island where there is no taxes.  Flat taxes with no or very limited deductions are the only FAIR taxes. 

Offline mechanic

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2012, 04:26:16 PM »
If you can make a million clear with five employees, you are a drug lord.  If you are a business man, say in a business like I work in, you might gross a million with five employees, but you would be lucky to make a profit at all.  You would have to pay the local gov. about $25,000 per yr. for a business license.  Every forklift you own to rent to other people, would set you back $750.00 per yr. in local taxes.  That delivery truck with the rollback on it?  It eats diesel fuel like the desert eats water.  And, it cost a bunch in taxes every year to own and use it.
 
You will have to have insurance, garage liability.  Most companies require at least 5 mill. in coverage to work on their premises.  Add a $100,000 per yr. insurance premium.  That, by the way doesn't cover your vehicles, or your business against fire or theft, etc.  Thats even more.
 
Lease purchase a new lift truck to a customer?  Looks good, except you owe the full load of taxes over the five year lease...THIS YEAR.
 
I could go on, but if you get lucky you might get to pay yourself a 40,000 salary after worker comp, 11%, state fuel taxes, state sales taxes, federal taxes...
 
Well I'm not done but I'm tired.  There's your millionaire Chung.  Tax his a$$ some more.  Then he will close the doors so folks like me won't have to set an alarm in the morning.
 
Ben
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Offline m-g Willy

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2012, 04:35:42 PM »
Yeah, if I were a liberal socialist, I'd be checking out Sweden.  Load Sweden up with a bunch of illegal invaders, welfare queens and drug pushers and then tell us what a utopia it is.

You're to late.
The story about the swed bragging about his great country is either a very old story ,or a lie.
Google( rape in sweden) for info about how muslims are invading sweden  crimes like rape ,murder as well as slums are on the rise.
 

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2012, 06:45:56 PM »
You are all missing the point. WHATEVER the expenses are, if you end up with a million in profit, it's a million in profit. Higher taxes on that profit, with deductions for reinvesting or expanding, would encourage the owner to reinvest or expand. Period. You're wasting time looking at the finger that's pointing at the moon.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2012, 11:12:04 PM »
You are all missing the point. WHATEVER the expenses are, if you end up with a million in profit, it's a million in profit. Higher taxes on that profit, with deductions for reinvesting or expanding, would encourage the owner to reinvest or expand. Period. You're wasting time looking at the finger that's pointing at the moon.
That is just plain silly, all that would do is cause the wealthy to do what the Kennedy's did and shove money in trust funds and to hell with creating jobs.

When the government tries to force people to do things they either leave the country in droves as the Brits did or find other ways to tell the government to shove their heads up their butt hole.

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2012, 01:10:34 AM »
Let 'em leave. Then, make them pay such large tariffs on the things they made offshore that, when they try to import them to sell here, it negates the cost advantage of moving overseas. In short, make those goods so expensive nobody would buy them. Also, we need to do like other countries do--- when a corporation closes a facility, they have to provide lifetime pensions for everyone they are going to put out of work, or they can NOT do business in this country. I'm saying we need it to HURT if they move out of the country, not reward them. Sure, some might put their money  into trust funds, but then, all they can do is spend it--- they can't make more if their manufacturing has moved to other countries. That means that someone else will have to start making things here to fill the market needs, and the old guard is effectively put out of business.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2012, 02:49:56 AM »
Chung,
 
It sounds like you are saying, in total, take anyone who makes any money, squeeze him dry, (business tax's on SMALL business already EXCEEDS 54%, it's more like 60)..then if he tries to do anything about it, such as hunt a more tax friendly place, tax him some more with tariffs.
 
Why not just take all his money?  Even better, just let the government take over and take the whole business.  They do such a good job with money anyway.
 
You have studied too many economic models, and not enough real life.  That guy that runs your little local auto shop, flower shop, etc. is slowly going broke.  People like that, if all tax's are counted, already pay in excess of the Swedish model you mentioned.
 
Ben
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2012, 05:11:52 AM »
I have never said take all their money. I do believe that the sector that makes 95% of the money SHOULD pay 95% of the taxes. $500,000 a year still makes you wealthy.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2012, 05:33:32 AM »
I have never said take all their money. I do believe that the sector that makes 95% of the money SHOULD pay 95% of the taxes. $500,000 a year still makes you wealthy.
I believe you are correct. ::) 
 
Now will you agree to run this government on that amount of money? Promise? Cross your heart?
 
How about this, confiscate everybit of wealth from the top 6% thats right an extra 1% cause you are such a good idiot er commie er guy . But only if you agree to live within those means. Now that you have impoverished an additional 5% of the countries population are you finally happy? 
 
Since they once were wealthy why not kill them all, as they did in Soviet Russia? We wouldn't want them to once again amass wealth would we? It would stand to reason to remove anyone who has demonstrated they are exceptional, lets say the top 5% of every pursuit. The top athletes and actors would already be gone so lets start with scientists, roofers, painters, truck drivers, chefs, school teachers, fire fighters, docters, movie projectionists...  Why this could end unemployment could it not.
 
Your ideas taken to their logical conclusions are pure genius.  :o  It is a wonder it has not been tried before now.  ::)  Certainly you possess mental capability in the top say....... 5%. Hang on a minute there Mr. Smarty Pants. There is someone who needs to speak with you.
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Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2012, 01:31:11 PM »
One thing's for sure: you can not show that raising the taxes on the very rich has any effect at all--- the top 2% have ONLY HAD TAX DECREASES SINCE 1950. Add to that the fact that in the '70s and '80s most families became two paycheck families without stopping the decline of the middle class.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Larry L

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2012, 02:20:08 PM »
Your commentary in regards to Sweden sounds real good but is totally wrong. Take Swedens healthcare system. The Gov't controls most of it. So if you are a doctor, you more than likely work for the Gov't...at Gov't wages.....which will not pay for your education in a lifetime. A Gov't doctor makes about the same as anybody else which is the whole idea behind Swedens socialist job market. Yeah, you can have a private practice, but the Gov't tells you how many patients you can see per year and then you're finished until next year. I have a lady friend whose dad is a doctor in Sweden. He works his practice from January 1 to the end of April usually. Then he opens his bed and breakfast until September and takes the rest of the year off. To get an appointment to see a surgeon may take 2 years and another to 2 years to get the surgery scheduled. Sweden was not a good choice for your analogy.


I think we have become a nation of disposers. Everything is disposable. Back when I was a kid we had milk bottles, pop came in a bottle, and they all were returned and reused. Now when we are finished with our consumption, we just throw away the container  These areas you speak of Two Block are the same- they are disposable. When we are finished with the building, we drive off. So the low lifes come in, the neighborhoods suffer from the low lifes, and it ends up in what you see along the railroad tracks. But in most areas of the country we are seeing a resurgence in the old areas. In my town, areas where the old houses were selling for under $20,000 are now selling for ten times that number and the neighborhoods are be revitalized. My girl bought a house that 6 months ago appraised for only $60,000 in old Knoxville. It now appraises for over $250,000 and the area is also seeing the revitalization. You'll probably see these areas along the tracks come back. Just takes someone with vision to start a local trend. Could be you.

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2012, 03:10:03 PM »
Let 'em leave. Then, make them pay such large tariffs on the things they made offshore that, when they try to import them to sell here, it negates the cost advantage of moving overseas. In short, make those goods so expensive nobody would buy them.
ROFL-- As Count Floyd used to say-- "EEEEWWW--That's real scary."

Nobody would buy them anyway as there would be so many unemployed with little money.

It is amazing, well not really, you are a liberal, you say do this, this or this and either are ignorant or do not give a damn on the effects it would have on the average citizen.

Offline briarpatch

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2012, 05:58:38 PM »
Let me give you a stat cdq,
The population of sweden is around 10 million The US is 300 million. With their health care system they have twice the deaths from prostrate cancer than the US.
Every category you look at is the same if not worse. Do you want this? You have google, go search these countries with paid health care and see what the death rates are for every type of problem and you will be amazed at what you will learn.
Should you ever have a prostrate operation be sure to ask those around you when you go back for a visit where they are from and dont be surprised if they are from Britian, Sweden, or any other countries that have health care and they tell you, it would be almost never before they could be taken care of.
I am guessing but may be wrong and I hope this dont affend you. I think you are either still in high school or just out of school. By your post, you have not had much experience in the world but you will if you keep thinking the way you do.
I suggest you study up on the rest of the world before you try to sell it. 

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2012, 09:33:08 PM »
Sweden's single payer plan is administered through county councils, with the patient paying a token out of pocket fee for using either a primary care facility or emergency room, where the cost is higher. Overall life expectancy is higher in Sweden than the US. Sweden is number 9; the US is 37. The wait times have grown for some procedures ever since the conservatives gained a seat in the Swedish parliament in 2006. 
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline briarpatch

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2012, 04:14:58 AM »
I EMPLORE EVERYONE BEFORE YOU GET ON THE BAND WAGON THAT THERE IS SUCH A THING AS FREE HEALTHCARE AND BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE,.,... RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH. WHEN YOU ARE THROUGH RESEARCHING, THEN....RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH.
DONT DO AS polisi, o, reid SUGGESTED.. SIGN FIRST THEN WE WILL LET YOU SEE WHAT IS IN IT. RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH...

I worked with 3 guys from the UK and 1 from Canada. I got guite a lesson in free healthcare. You can do the same just ask.


IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT?


http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_Health_Care.html


Sweden's Single-Payer Health System Provides a Warning to Other Nations

 by David Hogberg, Ph.D.

 

Sweden is a country of about 9.1 million people on the Scandinavian Peninsula of Northern Europe. Geographically, it is slightly larger than California.  It is by any measure a first world country, with a labor force working primarily in industry or the service area, a GDP per capita of about $31,600 and an unemployment rate of 5.6 percent.1

For much of the 20th century, Sweden had a single-payer system of health care in which the government paid almost all health care costs.  Like other nations with a single-payer system, Sweden has had to deal with the problem of ever-growing health care expenses causing a strain on government budgets.  It has dealt with this problem by rationing health care - instituting waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery.

Sweden stands not merely as a warning about single-payer systems, but also as an example of what happens when market-based reform of such systems do not go far enough. 

In the 1990s, Sweden set about reforming its health care system by introducing aspects of privatization.  These reforms were limited, however, and the old problems with waiting lists and rising costs had re-emerged by the beginning of this decade.

The experience of Sweden demonstrates that when a nation adopts market-oriented reform for its health care system, the reforms will fail if the market is not permitted to work.

Structure

For much of the last fifty years Sweden has had a heavily socialized health care system.  Almost all of the funding comes from government revenue, and most aspects of the health care system, such as hospitals, primary care centers and prescription drugs, are controlled by the government.  Doctors could still have a private practice, although by the 1960s about 80 percent of doctors worked in government-run hospitals.2

The Swedish Parliament first tried to provide comprehensive national health insurance in 1946 with the passage of the National Health Insurance Act.  Because of financial restraints, it was not actually implemented until 1955.  Since that time, that national government has given increasing authority and responsibility for the health care system over to county governments (commonly known in Sweden as "county councils") to the point where they now have more power over the health care system than either the national or municipal governments.  Nevertheless, the national government still plays an important role.

At the national level, the agency with the most authority over the health care system is the Ministry of Health and Social Affairs.  It is responsible for ensuring that the health care system runs efficiently and supervises the health care activities of county councils.  It also provides research and advice to the Swedish parliament on legislation and policy matters regarding health care.  National legislation sets the goals and ground rules for the provision of health care in Sweden.

There are a number of boards and institutes at the national level that focus on health care, but they have little more than advisory or research roles.  The three exceptions are the Medical Products Agency, the Pharmaceutical Benefits Boards and the National Corporation of Swedish Pharmacies.  The Medical Products Agency regulates the manufacturing and sale of drugs and other medicinal products.  Before a drug (including natural remedies) can be sold in Sweden, the Medical Products Agency must approve it.  The Medical Products Agency also provides information about medicines and gives permission to conduct clinical trials.

The Pharmaceutical Benefits Boards is charged with deciding whether a drug is included in Sweden's pharmaceutical benefits scheme and setting the price.  The primary factor that the Pharmaceutical Benefits Board considers when deciding whether to approve a drug is the drug's cost effectiveness.  If the Pharmaceutical Benefits Board does not approve the drug, then people who use it will not be reimbursed by the government.

Also at the national level is a state monopoly known as the National Corporation of Swedish Pharmacies.  It owns all of the pharmacies in Sweden, which enables it to maintain a countrywide distribution system.  It runs both community and hospital pharmacies.  It is responsible for supplying drugs at uniform prices throughout Sweden.

The next level of government in Sweden is the county councils, which are run by elected members.3  County councils are responsible for operating most of the health care delivery system, from primary care to hospital care.

County councils have complete authority over hospital structure in Sweden.  Either an executive board or an elected hospital board at the county level determines the management structure of hospitals within its county.  County councils have similar authority over primary health care centers, which differ from hospitals in that they are responsible for providing most outpatient care.

While physicians can practice privately in Sweden, county councils heavily regulate the establishments of new private physicians.  They regulate the number of patients that private providers can see in a year.  Private physicians must also have an agreement with the county council in order to get reimbursed by the government.  If a physician does not have an agreement, then the patients will have to pay the full charge of the physician.

County councils also have the responsibility of providing dental care through the Public Dental Service.  Dental care is also provided by private dentists.

Municipal governments are left with the responsibility of overseeing patients who have been discharged from a hospital and need public nursing homes or home care.

Financing

In 2004, Sweden spent about 9.1 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care, which is slightly above the average for nations that belong to the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development.4  The largest share of funding for the Swedish health care system comes from taxes.  Both county and municipal governments have broad authority to levy income taxes.  Since 90 percent of county revenues are expended on health care, a breakdown of the sources of county revenue give a roughly accurate picture of the revenue sources for health care provided by county councils.5  In 2003, 72 percent of the revenues for county councils came from taxes, while 18 percent came from grants from the national government, three percent came from user-fees, and the remaining seven percent came from other sources.6  Municipal government generated about 69 percent of their revenues from local taxes in 2003, and 20 percent of their revenues are spent on health care.7 

Patients in Sweden pay user fees (similar to co-payments in the United States) that are set by county councils.  The fee for seeing a primary care physician varies from 11 to 17 kronas (the Swedish unit of currency; $1 U.S. equals about 6.90 kronas), while the fee for seeing a specialist ranges from 22 to 33 kronas.  While county councils have discretion in setting user fees, the national government limits the amount of total user fees paid per patient at 100 kronas annually for physician and specialist visits.  The maximum user fee for hospital care is nine kronas per day.

For prescription drugs, patients pay no more than 200 kronas annually.  Payment for prescription drugs is set on a sliding scale, in which patients pay 100 percent of the first 100 kronas charged, 50 percent of the next 89 kronas, 25 percent of the next 178 kronas, and 10 percent of the next 111 kronas.  After that, the state pays 100 percent of the cost for drugs.

County councils provide dental care without charge for patients under age 20.  For the remainder of the population, the national government sets fixed subsidies for dental care, and patients must pay the difference between the subsidy and what the provider charges.  Municipalities set the user fees for nursing homes and home health care, although the national government limits such user-fees to no more than 175 kronas per month.8

Private funding, beyond user fees, plays a small role in Swedish health care.  Only about 2.3 percent of the population has supplementary health insurance, and the primary benefit of it is the ability to avoid waiting lists for treatment.9

Reform

During the 1990s, many county councils adopted market-oriented reforms of the health care system.  This reform wave had its roots in an attempt in the 1980s to control the burgeoning cost of the Swedish health care system.

By the early 1980s, with an aging population and increasingly expensive health care technology, the system had become unsustainable.  In a ten-year period from 1972-1982, the health care portion of Sweden's GDP grew from 7.2 percent to 9.3 percent (see Figure 1).10  Until 1985, the national government reimbursed county councils for health care expenses on a fee-for-service basis.  The Dagmar Reform of 1985 changed the reimbursement formula to one of "capitation," in which counties were reimbursed for the number of patients served.  This led to "global budgets" - a fixed amount that each county could spend annually on health care services.




Global budgeting would prove to have serious consequences for Sweden's health care system, most notably expanding waiting lists.  Waiting lists for surgery and other procedures had long been a problem in Sweden.  Like most government-run systems, the Swedish health care system was already plagued by declining productivity - a consequence of which included delays in care.11  Global budgeting, however, worsened the problem of waiting lists.  With county councils now operating with fixed budgets and citizens facing few restraints on demand for health care, county councils needed to ration health care services.  An increase in wait times was the result.  By 1988 the wait time for an angiogram - a heart X-ray - was up to eleven months.  The wait time for bypass surgery could be an additional eight months.12

Although the Dagmar Reform had some success in containing health care costs, the rationing that resulted from it led to public outcry over waiting lists that grew throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s.  During the 1990s, the national government shifted responsibility for funding of health care to county councils but also gave counties more freedom to structure health care delivery.  This led to a number of market-oriented experiments by county councils.  Of all counties, Stockholm County engaged in the most aggressive reform regimen.13  Under this reform, which became known as the "Stockholm Model," the county council still provided the funding, but health care providers could be owned by private individuals or companies.  The initial results were impressive.  Stockholm County encouraged doctors, nurses and private companies to take over the operation of primary health care centers.  Over 60 percent of primary care centers were run privately by 2002.  Costs declined, particularly for laboratory services, which dropped by 30 percent.  Stockholm also privatized one of its seven hospitals, St. George's.  St. George's Hospital began running a profit in 1994, and 90 percent of patients were satisfied with the care they received there.

Other county councils followed suit and initiated a purchaser-provider split, in which the government would continue to pay for health care, but the provider would become a private entity.  The county council would contract services out to primary health care centers and other private providers.  Providers would be paid on a "per-case" basis, and, thus the provider would be able to make a profit based on his ability to attract patients while also holding down costs.  Additional reform at the national level created circumstances in which a patient could go to any hospital of his choice, even one in another county.  This reform was the Patient Choice and Guarantee of 1992, which required patients to be treated within three months of diagnosis.  According to Swedish economist Ragnar Lofgren, "The logic behind this reform was to let the money follow the patient.  This approach would give hospitals and doctors a strong incentive to increase efficiency in order to attract patients from outside their hospital's catchment area and avoid losing patients to other hospitals."14  These reforms at the national and county levels had some early success.  Waiting lists dropped by over 20 percent from early 1992 to late 1993.  Furthermore, health care expenses did not increase, as health care as a percent of GDP held steady during the 1990s. 

Unfortunately, waiting lists began to increase in 1994 and in late 1996 the Patient Choice and Guarantee was abandoned.15  By the early part of this decade, most counties once again faced a problem with waiting lists.16

Worse still, costs have clearly been on the rise again, as demonstrated in Figure 1.  Part of the recurrence of these problems stems from the purchaser-provider split, or lack of one.  First, a majority of county councils did not implement a provider-purchaser split based on a per-case payment basis or did so only partially.17  Thus, there was not sufficient pressure on providers to attract patients for fear of losing funding.  Second, the split was weak to begin with.  As one study of the split policy noted, the contracts between purchasers and providers often amounted to little more than "letters of intent," and the "escape route back to traditional planning and management was always open to the central county-council administration."18 

Another problem was that although patients were free to choose which hospital in which they could get treatment, there were few penalties on providers that failed to attract patients.  For example, in Stockholm, the county council did not permit any emergency hospital - public or private - from shutting down.  Additionally, market-reform initiatives were vulnerable to the whims of politicians.  In 2004, the left-leaning Social Democratic coalition, which controlled parliament, banned the privatization of hospitals and forbad the practice of private patients buying their way past waiting lists.19

One of the underpinnings of any successful market is that entities that do not adequately satisfy consumers eventually go out off business.  The greatest failing of the market- oriented reform of the Swedish health care system is that they did not permit private providers to, in essence, "fail."  As a result, one of the hallmarks of single-payer systems, waiting lists, are again plaguing the Swedish patients.

Waiting Lists

Görann Persson had to wait eight months during 2003 and 2004 for a hip replacement operation.  Persson was not considered to be a very pleasant person to begin with, and he became even grumpier due to the pain he endured while waiting for his operation.  As a result, Persson walked with a limp, reportedly used strong pain medication and had to reduce his workload.20

What made Persson unique was not his wait for hip surgery.  Despite the government promise that no one should have to wait more than three months for surgery, 60 percent of hip replacement patients waited longer than three months in 2003 (see Figure 2).21  Rather, Persson stood out because he was Prime Minister of Sweden at the time.  Persson could surely have used his position in the government to gain access to private care, essentially jumping the waiting list.  Yet Persson stated that he planned on waiting for his surgery like everyone else.

Whether Prime Minister Persson did this out of benevolent motives is an open question.  His party, the Social Democrats, have used the phrase "equal access to health care" to attack the center-right parties on the issue of health care for many years.  Persson would have greatly undermined the effectiveness of that attack had he jumped the waiting list.

Figure 2: Percentage of Swedish Patients
Who Received Treatment Within Three Months



In practice, the political notion of "equal access" actually means "restricted access."  Swedes who do not have private insurance must wait, often for months, for treatment.  For all Swedes who needed an operation in 2003, slightly more than half waited more than three months (see Figure 2).22  The situation continues.  Moreover, patients often wait in great pain and distress.

Researchers studying Swedes waiting for hip or knee replacement concluded that "almost every aspect of daily life is affected by the indeterminate wait for surgery and the related experiences of pain and disability.  The respondents express a deep sense of lost dignity, powerlessness and frustration."23  One patient complained that the pain had gotten so bad that she "had no quality of life."  "I can't participate in anything," she said. "I can't go for a walk, I can't do anything, so why on earth do I need to wake up in the morning!"24  Depression and hopelessness were other common symptoms.  Another patient complained, "I feel as though I've lost my human dignity. You get depressed and fed up with the pain.  Still I try to be patient.  But you lose the desire (to live)."  She further complained of her treatment by the clinic where her surgery was to take place.  "I felt so neglected, you get treated, yes, worse than an animal because you can take an animal to the veterinary... I feel so powerless."25

Pain and anxiety are also common problems for Swedish heart patients waiting for surgery.  One study found that more than half of patients waiting for heart surgery experience chest pain daily, and longer wait times were associated with increased nervousness.26  Another study found that 88 percent of patients waiting for heart surgery reported chest pains that limited their daily activities.  It also found symptoms of anxiety and depression to be strongly associated with the pain.27 

While rationing may permit the government to save on costs and thereby restrain health care budgets, putting patients on waiting lists is not cost-free.  One study that examined over 1,400 Swedes on a waiting list for cataract surgery found that 5.2 million kronas were spent on hospital stays and home health care for patients waiting for surgery.28  That was the equivalent of what it would have cost to give 800 patients cataract surgery.

A recent study that examined over 5,800 Swedish patients on a wait list for heart surgery found that the long wait has consequences far worse than pain, anxiety or monetary cost.29  In this study, the median wait time was found to be 55 days.  While on the waiting list, 77 patients died.   The authors' statistical analysis led them to conclude that the "risk of death increases significantly with waiting time."30  Another study found a mean wait time of 55 days for heart surgery in Sweden and a similar rate of mortality for those on the waiting list.31  Finally, a study in the Swedish medical journal Lakartidningen found that reducing waiting times reduced the heart surgery mortality rate from seven percent to just under three percent.32

Sweden is one of several nations whose practices offer proof that single-payer health care systems lead to the proliferation of waiting lists.  It also shows that waiting lists have adverse and sometimes tragic consequences for patients.

Conclusion

While Sweden is a first world country, its health care system - at least in regards to access - is closer to the third world.  Because the health care system is heavily-funded and operated by the government, the system is plagued with waiting lists for surgery.  Those waiting lists increase patients' anxiety, pain and risk of death.

Sweden's health care system offers two lessons for the policymakers of the United States.  The first is that a single-payer system is not the answer to the problems faced as Americans.  Sweden's system does not hold down costs and results in rationing of care.  The second lesson is that market-oriented reforms must permit the market to work.  Specifically, government should not protect health care providers that fail to provide patients with a quality service from going out of business.

When the United States chooses to reform its health care system, reform should lead to improvement.  Reforming along the lines of Sweden would only make our system worse.

# # #

David Hogberg is a senior policy analyst at the National Center for Public Policy Research




Footnotes:

1 "The World Factbook," Central Intelligence Agency.

 2 Unless otherwise noted, the source for the section on the structure of the Swedish health care system used in this study is Anna H. Glenngard, Frida Hjate, Marianne Svensson, Anders Anell and Vaida Bankauskaite, "Health Systems in Transition: Sweden," European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies, 2005, p. 21, available at http://www.euro.who.int/document/e88669.pdf as of March 5, 2007.

 3 This includes 18 county councils, two regional bodies that are comprised of multiple counties, (Vastra Gotaland and Skane) and one municipal government (Gotland).

 4 "OECD Health Data 2006 - Frequently Requested Data," available at http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,2340,en_2825_495642_2085200_1_1_1_1,00.html as of March 19, 2006.

 5 Ibid.

 6 Anna H. Glenngard, Frida Hjate, Marianne Svensson, Anders Anell and Vaida Bankauskaite,  "HiT Summary: Sweden, 2005," European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies, 2005, p. 4, available at http://www.euro.who.int/observatory/Hits/20060601_1 as of May 14, 2007.

 7 Ibid, and Anders Anell, "Swedish Healthcare Under Pressure," Health Economics, 2005, vol. 14, S237-S254.

 8 See Anna H. Glenngard, et al, "Health Systems in Transition: Sweden," p. 48 for a breakdown of user fees.

 9 Anders Anell, "Swedish Healthcare Under Pressure," Health Economics, 2005, Vol. 14, S237-S254.

 10 Data for Figure 1 from "OECD Health Data 2006 - Frequently Requested Data," available at http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,2340,en_2649_37407_2085200_1_1_1_37407,00.html as of April 3, 2007.

 11 Anders Anell, "Swedish Healthcare Under Pressure," Health Economics, 2005, Vol. 14, S237-S254.

 12 Annika Schildt, "In Sweden, Equality Is Tinged With Inefficiency:  Long Waits for Heart, Hip Surgery Spark the Introduction of Private Clinics in a Socialist Nation," The Washington Post, August 16, 1988, p. z08.

 13 For an extensive treatment of the Stockholm reforms, see Johan Hjertqvist, "The Health Care Revolution In Stockholm:  A Short Personal Introduction to Change," Timbro Hälsa, 2002, available at http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/health/pdf/75665263.pdf as of March 6, 2007; and  Johan Hjerrtqvist, "The End of the Beginning:  The Healthcare Revolution in Stockholm," Timbro Health Policy Unit, 2002, available at http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/health/pdf/TheEndOfTheBeginning.pdf as of March 6, 2007.

 14 Ragnar Lofgren, "The Swedish Health Care System:  Recent Reforms, Problems, and Opportunities," Public Policy Sources, No. 59, July 2002, The Fraser Institute, p. 15, available at http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=440 as of February 26, 2007.

 15 Ragnar Lofgren, "Health Care Waiting List Initiatives in Sweden," Public Policy Sources, No. 62, August 2002, The Fraser Institute, available at http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=443 as of February 26, 2007.

 16 Anders Anell, "Swedish Healthcare Under Pressure," Health Economics, 2005, vol. 14, S237-S254.

 17 Ibid.

 18 Ibid, p. S246.

 19 Jane Burgemeister, "Sweden Bans Privatisation of Hospitals," British Medical Journal, February 28, 2004, available at http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7436/484-c as of March 22, 2007.

 20 Waldemar Ingdahl, "His Hip, Hooray!" TSCDaily, June 4, 2004, available at http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=060404D as of March 5, 2007.

 21 Pia Maria Jonsson, Agneta Ekman, Bengt Göran Emitinger, Örjan Ericsson and Stefan Håkansson, "Health Care.  Status Report 2003," The National Board of Health and Welfare, 2003, available at http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/NR/rdonlyres/1DA644DE-5036-43C5-A186-3DC31171F021/2519/summary.pdf as of March 20, 2007.

 22 Ibid.  Data for Figure 2 found on p. 13.

 23 R.N Mats Sjöling, R.N. Ylva Ågren, Niclas Olofsson, R.N. Ove Hellzèn and R.N. Kenneth Asplund, "Waiting for Surgery; Living a Life On Hold - A Continuous Struggle Against A Faceless System," International Journal of Nursing Studies, 2005, Vol. 42, p. 544.

 24 Ibid, p. 543.

 25 Ibid, p. 542.

 26 A. Bengtson, J. Herlitz, T. Karlsson and A. Hjalmarson, "The Epidemiology of a Coronary Waiting List.  A Description of All of the Patients," Journal of Internal Medicine, March 1994, Vol. 253, No. 3, pp. 263-269.

 27 A. Bengtson, J. Herlitz, T. Karlsson and A. Hjalmarson, "Distress Correlates With The Degree of Chest
 Pain:  A Description of Patients Awaiting Revascularisation," Heart, 1996, Vol. 75, pp. 257-260.

 28 U. Stenevi, M. Lundstrom, W. Thorburn, "The Cost of Cataract Patients Awaiting Surgery," Acta ophthalmologica Scandinavica, December 2000, Vol. 78, No. 6, pp. 703-705.

 29 H. Rexius, G. Brandup-Wognsen, A. Oden and A. Jeppsson, "Mortality on the Waiting List for Coronary Artery Bypass Grafting:  Incidence and Risk Factors," Annals of Thoracic Surgery, March 2004, Vol.7 7, No. 3, pp. 769-774.

 30 Ibid, p. 774.

 31 H. Rexius, G. Brandup-Wognsen, A. Oden and A. Jeppssom, "Gender and Mortality Risk on the Waiting List for Coronary Artery Bypass Grafting," European Journal of Cardio-Thoracic Surgery, September 2004, Vol. 26, No. 3, pp. 521-527.

32 Rolf Ekroth, Folke Nilsson, Sveneric Svensson, "Förbättrade Resultat Vid Hjärtkirurgi. Kortare Kölistor Minskade Mortaliteten," Lakartidningen, 1994, Vol. 91, No. 20, pp. 2051-2052.

 
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Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2012, 05:19:40 AM »
A blog posted by a "conservative think tank" Is necessarily biased towards the conservative point of view. When you check the sources, listed in the footnotes, you see that they are all right wing conservative, too. I'll ask one question: If the healthcare is so bad, why do the people not ask to change it? In a referendum in 2010, less than 1% of Swedes surveyed said they wanted to change to a for profit health care system like what we have in the US.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline briarpatch

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Re: Empire of the In-Between
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2012, 05:54:13 AM »
Once you teach a dog to wait on you for food, he waits. Humans are no different. socialist nations dont have independent thinkers, they have followers. I would like to see how the question was phrased when they were asked, if in fact they ever were.
Your information is more biased than any I have. Every publication has been swayed by the elite to sell this lie.