Author Topic: fiscal cliff  (Read 1909 times)

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Offline The Hermit

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2012, 12:36:18 PM »
jimster, sadly enough, you are absolutly correct. There is $ 17 Trillion in UNFUNDED liabilities facing us today. This will ultimately destroy the US dollar through inflation. Russia and China have taken steps to insure the survival of the ruble and renabi. They have passed laws in their countries to allow the MARKET value of gold to replace the "old" worlds reserve currency, the US dollar. This in effect, shores up their currencies, making US dollars less attractive worldwide.
The only weapon left in the Fed's arsenal is QE to infinity. Ben Bernake is printing dollars as fast as he can, folks !
 
Richard, this fiscal cliff was caused by the HUGE losses sustained by the derivative markets which were carried on the banks books as having actual value, instead of being worthless. In order for the banking system not to collapse, the taxpayer in effect bought these worthless assests. By the way, no individual responsible for this mess has been charged.
 
The Hermit

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2012, 01:45:54 PM »
SOMEBODY'S taxes are going to go up. We got a couple of wars to pay for. Now, the people who make 95% of all the money can have higher taxes, the 98% who make the other 5% of all the money can have higher taxes, or everybody can have higher taxes. Those are your only three choices. The Republicans want the 98% to take a bigger percentage hit on their income to pay down that debt which means it will NEVER get paid down; meanwhile the rich get richer. "Do the arithmetic."
OK, I did the arithmetic...there isn't enough wealth in the country to even make a dent in the interest if you took it all, let alone tax it more...
Now what Mr. Wizard?
Do you know what 17 trillion means?  I realize some astronomers do....but I don't think you get it.  Taxes won't do squat, that's just symbolism over substance.  In order to fix this mess all spending in all directions must be slashed drastically, and that too much substance for the lefties to swallow.

That's simply wrong. Goldman Sachs ALONE has $49 trillion just in their derivatives holdings. As to "defaulting on what we owe the ChiComs," that would take care of less than 10% of the total owed. Over 2/3 of that money is owed to the US citizens. Now, if we just "default" as has been suggested, on the one hand the average American would (Theoretically) be looking at 40-50 years of 0 taxes. Also, NO Social Security, NO Medicare, NO Armed Forces, NO government whatsoever--- road maintenance, gov't loans of all kinds, federal law enforcement, All of that would just be gone. For 40-50 years. Think of military coups, think of NO border control, think of foreign powers. The US would be carved up like a turkey. And, whether those who take over are foreign or domestic, they are not going to be ok with your guns. You might last a while, until you starve or scratch yourself and die from infection, unless a bigger group with more guns decides what you have is theirs. Those corporations the right supports? They will be the biggest threats; not some other country.

Understand what is happening here--- this debt was GIVEN to the US citizenship BY THE CORPORATIONS. THEY OWE US THE MONEY NOW. The present situation is the best argument for socialist style takeover of those corporations in history. We need to hit the "reset" button. Dismantle them, reinstate the antitrust laws, and yes, seize their assets. They're ours anyway.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline blind ear

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2012, 02:38:49 PM »
probably going to be lots of confiscation going on. ear
Oath Keepers: start local
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“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
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An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
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everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
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Offline jimster

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2012, 02:37:14 AM »
Boy ChunDoQuan...I don't know what you been readin...but it borders on science fiction...But one thing is for sure in my opinion, you don't belong in this country. You need to go to another all things you want are already fully in place.
Goldman Sachs don't have nothin....they got paper...they needed to be bailed out...cause they had nothin...they still have nothing but paper.
Anything you think you can take from them,,,is just paper

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2012, 02:56:29 AM »
The big money corps and Wall Street spent like there was no tomorrow. The US taxpayer got the corporate debt dumped in their laps--- that is where the debt came from. We taxpayers are the ones who have nothing. Those corps are the ones who really piled on the debt, the part not directly due to GW's wars. By rights they SHOULD pay it. We should increase their tax rate to 50% of their earnings until it's paid. Those are the people the right defends.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline jimster

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2012, 03:22:13 AM »
I'm having trouble following you here...
I work for a global corporation...they deal in office furnature and employ about 8000 employees at this time. We run on cash, have never ran in the red, do not have to borrow money to pay employyes or vendors...and we all pay gobs of taxes. So the message I'm getting here is you want to take our money and put us all in the red or out of business so I can join the ranks of unemployed which leads to less people paying taxes, and more government debt. Do I have that correct?  So the corporation I work for did not contribute to anything you claim, yet you want their money and don't work there...what's up with that?  Or do you just want a piece of the bad corporations? How do you do that with the bozo's in Washington?
The main reason we had a problem in the first place was people buying things without money and could not pay it back...so the bad debt was bought up...bad idea....but the fact remains it was "people" who did not live within their means, government intervention helped them walk away from their responsibilities, the government also does not spent within their means because the same people who like to spend more than they have elect the same type of people. That is really the problem. People are idiots...they elect idiots to bail them out, blame anyone or anything they can, create enemies where there were none. The Corp I work for owes nobody anything...but listening to the left wing media and your posts, we are all evil...somehow. Well..take what our corporation has by force, and see where it gets you...less government income.
Worse yet....you would have government be the controllers of fixing the problems....when they are worse and more corrupt than any coporation I have heard of.  No matter what you allow your government to "seize"....you will not see one penny of it...I would think you might have figured this out already. Government does not redistribute anything...they use it to grow bigger and have more power. You'd be better off to put up with a few bad corporations than to slam dunk all of them.
 

Offline jimster

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2012, 04:22:59 AM »
Here is a real life story. I lived next door to a couple that worked at GM for a number of years. They each had new trucks, they each had nice motor cycles, they both had snowmobiles and trailers for all, and they had a nice big boat. And a great big house and mortgage. I know what they made, they did not make enough to have all this stuff, they borrowed the money.  The company they worked for ran in the red for many years, and finally went bankrupt. they both lost their jobs, they lost all their stuff, and the house...I don't where where they moved to but...I had to support them, and their banks that lent them the money, and their place of business... with my money.  I never lived that way, I only bought what I had cash for my whole life, but yet I had to support all the crap they did to themselves. Now somehow, since I lived my life conservatively and waited for everything I bought till I could afford it...I am somehow shunned as a conservative person, and I have to pay for all the people, the banks, and the places of business that went bankrupt due to their own bad judgements.
That ain't right no matter how you cut it. My enemies are not corporations, or banks, or even GM...it is the people themselves who who do not use good judgement, a government who lives the same way and promotes this way of life and points at me as a conservative bastard for saving money I worked hard for.  In my opinion a large portion of the American people are not good stewards of their money, they buy things that can't afford, and there is also a large portion of people who want what I have just because I have it....it ain't right that I lived without for many years and used good judgement and have to now be looked at as a source of income for all those who did not. Every problem we have started with the people themselves...until we realize this and people change and live within their means...nothing will ever change, and everyone will need an enemy to point at.  I have survived not because of my government and people like this, I have survived in spite of all of them, and it's getting harder being a conservative and labled the problem, when in fact I am actually holding up all their flawed way of life. They should be thanking me instead of pointing at me and the place I work for. But that's human nature...use up all your supplies and grab someone else's. The American Peoples attitudes are the real problem. Or at least a large portion of them. What made this country great was the effort it took to get somewhere in life, and the chances you took to get there, and the going without until the right time. Now everyone needs enemies and I happen to be one I guess.

Offline Anna

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2012, 05:09:33 AM »
Guys CDQ does a very good job of playing devils advocate. And that term has nothing to do with
Lucifer. A lot of the data he recites comes from facts compiled from places like the Pacific Rim.
And I have found in the past a lot of that data is factual coming from the Nicki average stock reports.
We here are quoting data compiled from the WSJ that is handed down as we see it and not nessasary
the way it is. I will have to give him credit on that, it took me some time but once I looked at the
Nicki vs what he is saying it was aparent where he is getting his numbers. Or at least a reprint of
them from a different web site . Otherwise he is not pulling these numbers out of thin air .

Offline JonnyReb

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2012, 05:41:34 AM »
What leadership ? All we have now is a three ring circus where all the clowns are trying to become
the head BOZO !

aint that the durn truth?we are being ruled by a bunch of freaks that look like the star wars bar scene.

    ;D. Haha that's the funniest thing I've read today for sure.  Heard the music soundtrack playing in my head and yup, they were all there. :o
Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2012, 01:10:07 PM »
Guys CDQ does a very good job of playing devils advocate. And that term has nothing to do with
Lucifer. A lot of the data he recites comes from facts compiled from places like the Pacific Rim.
And I have found in the past a lot of that data is factual coming from the Nicki average stock reports.
We here are quoting data compiled from the WSJ that is handed down as we see it and not nessasary
the way it is. I will have to give him credit on that, it took me some time but once I looked at the
Nicki vs what he is saying it was aparent where he is getting his numbers. Or at least a reprint of
them from a different web site . Otherwise he is not pulling these numbers out of thin air .

 ;)

As some really smart guy once said, "Trust but verify." Sometimes it takes some digging to figure out who you trust TO verify...
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2012, 01:15:55 PM »
Boy ChunDoQuan...I don't know what you been readin...but it borders on science fiction...But one thing is for sure in my opinion, you don't belong in this country. You need to go to another all things you want are already fully in place.
Goldman Sachs don't have nothin....they got paper...they needed to be bailed out...cause they had nothin...they still have nothing but paper.
Anything you think you can take from them,,,is just paper

That's pretty well what anybody has these days, isn't it?  :)
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2012, 01:29:18 PM »
By the way, Obama was on Meet the Press today. He laid out his plan to deal with the fiscal cliff--- pretty well what I predicted he was going to do (I didn't say I back the plan; I just saw it coming.) I mean, this is the third (at least) budget battle they've had. The right has dug in, holding its ground. Digging in only works if the other side can't flank you. Water is soft, but over time the waves wear stones smooth and break rocks on the shore.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Anna

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2012, 02:29:49 PM »
Old Chinese proverb CDQ ?  ;) 

Offline Mikey

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2012, 02:56:32 PM »
This is the part I love, proverbs put to politics, quite the thought, but a government shutdown, no.  Military shutdown, no.  The spending cuts that will affect the states and state run federal programs in health, social services, medicaid and others will see some cuts and in democratic or more liberally run states is where the taxes will go up, to cover lost federal funding.  Some government shuffling is always in order but the basics will continue.  Retirees, social security recipients, disability recipients will continue to receive their income, but they will pay more local and state taxes.  We have seen this before when the federal goverment had to shuffle $ quickly to keep the administration functioning, and you see some states having this problem too.  This means that state governments will have to use federal monies paid directly for programs, for those programs only and not toss the $ into their general funds which payes for state specific social services and other spending programs, so the $ to cover those losses to the state run programs, the state and local taxes will go up to cover it.  That I believe is the fiscal cliff .....

Offline scootrd

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2012, 06:39:53 AM »
I also agree , there is no fiscal cliff. However , if that's what they want to call it ..

Personally as painful as it might be I'm all for going over this fiscal "cliff" . I hope no deal is struck.  Let all bush tax cuts go by the wayside. Let sequestration kick in and all automatic spending cuts begin at midnight tonight. Then these idiots can come back to Washington in 2013 and pass meaningful Legislation , True tax reform, common sense regulation,  and start working for "majority" of Americans again. .  If not well then 2014 elections will help vote out obstructionists. Washington has forgotten their primary job is working for the people not corp lobbyists , Norquist idiots, special interests, and campaign fund raising.

What cracks me up most is how bi-polar these new far right extremist's are that are holding the adult common sense republicans hostage.  These idiots don't want tax increases yet they are more than willing to hold 100% of Americans hostage and not vote on tax cuts below a negotiated threshold. All just to use the majority of Americans who will be hurt by inaction as pawns and leverage to barter more cuts for top 2%. 

They claim they want deficit reduction yet are not willing for sequestration (which they voted for but are now against) Why ? because they want deficit reduction but only through means of cutting disproportionately those areas that affect poor and middle working class working households. IF no deal is struck I cant wait to see the McConnells of the world go back and explain that to their constituents over the Holiday.  These folks are so bi-polar they don't even know when to say yes.

Me thinks a lot of these far right nut jobs will be looking for new Jobs in 2014. I hear Wall Mart is hiring. But then again they couldnt afford to pay for HC on what wally world pays in wages.


- TM7 This is a factual statement, I concurr

The only people that need to go off the fiscal cliff are politicians in Washington busy making day trades and crooked bankers across the world looking for another “bail out” aka hand out.
 






Semper Fi.
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2012, 09:01:26 AM »
Let Obama have his way. Totally!! The Republicans should just pack up and go home. Lets go over the cliff, with Obey leading the way. Only way to cure a drug addict sometimes is to go cold turkey. Time for a purging is at hand lets do it. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline scootrd

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2013, 03:37:52 PM »
the CEO's from the business community are telling the Eric Cantor Tea Party types (who owe their souls to wall street business)  to not let the markets open tomorrow morning without a bill passed in the house. They fear a sell off in markets tomorrow if bill is obstructed and not passed.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline scootrd

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2013, 05:13:17 PM »
257 - 167 Bill passed . 23 hours into the new year.
Tax cuts for middle class remain in affect. 620 billion in new revenues gained .

Boehner and Ryan  and 86 republicans voted yes , Cantor voted No.

I swear Cantor has been trying to tank Boehner behind the scenes as he wants the speaker Job.

DOW up 13104.14+166.03

will see how markets open and react on the news of the new deal
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2013, 02:46:49 AM »
Cantor voted like most from Va. did. BTW everyones taxes will still go up  ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline jjas

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2013, 03:33:01 AM »
BTW everyones taxes will still go up  ;)

I assume you are talking about the 2% Social Security tax cut that expired......(A 2%age point temporary cut in the Social Security payroll tax, originally enacted two years ago to stimulate the economy, expired with the end of 2012. Neither Obama nor Republicans made a significant effort to extend it.)
I'd rather my taxes go up by 2% than 6%.  Now let's see if these bozos (from both parties) cut spending. 
BTW, (like many) I wonder how long it will take Cantor to try and take over Boehner's speakership?

Offline scootrd

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2013, 03:45:59 AM »
Amazing what a little stability in the Business world helps accomplish.

Dow rallies more than 200 points after passage of 'fiscal cliff' plan

Dow +258 at present


That's what these congressional leaders in our do nothing congress don't seem to grasp. The only Poor decision is no decision and inaction. True leaders understand if something doesn't work you can always tweak and try anew, but to not try anything  creates chaos (in this case man made artificial chaos).

Business models can adjust to anything except indecisiveness.

* I also think Cantors been plotting a mutiny.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: fiscal cliff
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2013, 05:00:54 AM »
BTW everyones taxes will still go up  ;)

I assume you are talking about the 2% Social Security tax cut that expired......(A 2%age point temporary cut in the Social Security payroll tax, originally enacted two years ago to stimulate the economy, expired with the end of 2012. Neither Obama nor Republicans made a significant effort to extend it.)
I'd rather my taxes go up by 2% than 6%.  Now let's see if these bozos (from both parties) cut spending. 
BTW, (like many) I wonder how long it will take Cantor to try and take over Boehner's speakership?

yes cut spending !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !