454 Casull vs 475 Linebaugh or ?

[cobrad]

Bought my FA Premier 454 early in the fall. This beast is a handful. My previous big bore experience was with a Dan Wesson 44 mag. I'm currently loading the Casull down to full house .44 mag levels.
Question is this; I recently read a comment that the 454 is suitable for everything, including elephants. Cool, but I'm not an elephant hunter. I plan to use it for elk next fall.
The thing I seem to be reading a lot about lately are the Linebaugh's, and the 50 Wyoming and A&E. Again, I have read that the Casull recoils as much as anything, and more that most, and that if one is accustomed to shooting the Casull, the Linebaugh's, for example, will fell more manageable.
I would like to hear your comments on this.

[ole 5 hole group]

I own and shoot a few cannons and they are all pretty nasty when loaded over the top hot.

I’ve found the 45 Colt with a 5-shot cylinder to come real close to 454 performance and both are a handful at full throttle. I have both calibers and both revolvers have a 5-shot cylinder. I use cut down 460 brass with a large pistol primer for my 454 case – just cus.

The 475 Linebaugh is a mighty fine cartridge, as is the 480 Ruger and they can be either nasty or pleasant, depending upon how you want to load them. I have the 475 Linebaugh and find that a bit more pleasant with 400 grain bullets at just over 1,100fps – now if you want to go with a 420 grain bullet at 1,400fps you can feel the pain and decide for yourself which is better.
 
The 500WE has a partner called the 500JRH – both have the same ballistics but the 500WE is a proprietary belted cartridge, whereas the 500JRH is not and is a whole lot less expensive in the BFR frame. I have the 500 JRH and shooting 440 grain bullets at 1,150fps is pleasant but going over 1,400fps doesn’t meet that description of “pleasant”. 500 grain bullet at 1,200fps is fairly pleasant but 1,000fps is a whole lot better.

The 45 Colt is a fine elk cartridge and the 454 will extend your range a bit – the 475 Linebaugh and any of the 500’s are both bigger and better at the job of killing big game but your 454 will get the job done in spades.

Now, to answer your question “that if one is accustomed to shooting the Casull, the Linebaugh's, for example, will fell more manageable” the answer to that in my experience is hell yes, if you compare full-house 454 loads to medium heavy 475 Linebaugh loads. The very top-end heavy loads on both are nasty but in my opinion the 454 has a more violent twist recoil to it than the 475L.

If you’re going to take that kind of punishment on a fairly regular basis then I’d recommend you go to the 500 JRH and if weight and size doesn’t bother you, then the 500 Smith or the 500 Linebaugh Long (Max) is about as “big bore” as you would probably want, as the 50 Alaskan is just a little over the top for most mortal humans.
 
The 500 JRH gives you a lot of options, as it is very pleasant at 900 to 1,100 fps with 440 grain bullets and is a big barrel of whoop arse if you decide to load it up. Shooting 350/375 grain bullets at moderate velocities is very similar to top-end 44 Specials. Good luck on next year’s Elk hunt.

[Ken ONeill]

Perceived recoil is a very personal thing, varying from person to person. In my experience (20 years with .454's, nearly 14 with .475's, and over 7 with .500 WE's), full house loads can  be very heavy recoilers with all 3.
With similar barrel lengths, and gun weights, I find the recoil to be similarly heavy with all of them ... with different barrel lengths and scopes vs irons changing the perception of recoil within the same caliber, as much as or even more than the difference between the calibers.
Any of the three can kill anything. My favorite for big heavy critters is the .475, but for a bit more distance on somewhat smaller animals, I like the .454 (this is by far the most popular FA caliber).
For plain ol' fun, I like the WE with 325 cat bullets and 1100 fps loads.
The simple answer to your question is: yes, experience with full house .454 loads will help you master .475 and .500 loads.

[gjn]

I shoot the 454, 475 and the 500 Wyoming Express. Personally I have found no use for top end loads and have been very happy shooting mid to heavy weight bullets in the 1100 to 1150 fps range. Recoil is not objectionable and there is nothing I'm going to shoot that those loads won't work on. I shot an elk with the 500 using a 450 grain cast flat point at 1100 and dug the bullet out of the dirt on the other side of the elk. It only went 30-40 yards and fell over. I agree you just have to determine your own level of recoil tolerance, practice to determine to what range you are proficient and hunt within your limitations. For each person that will be different.

[mk454]

yes and no, i have all of the FA calibers for the big boomers and i like the 454 and 475 best.  the 454 can be loaded to a higher pressure by far and so it can in fact deliver a heavy recoil pulse.  it kills as good as anything.  it shines better with expandables and for elk on down a 454 with a barnes xbp or swift aframe 300 or 325 gr bullet kills as good as absolutely anything out there.  475 shoots a bigger cast bullet.  i've got loads that are as fast as 340 gr hardcast over 1800 fps in the 454 and if i use beartooth bullets they hold together well.  475 is more on the side of  a bigger bullet but not as fast but imho it ends up being the same in the end.  the people i see that say the 475 recoils less are people that run medium loads.  top loads are brutal and if loaded to be more powerful than the 454 they are more brutal as well.  not much is gained.  imho the 475 shines with 400 or so gr bullets around 1100 to 1200 fps.  healthy but not painful, i load my 454 to 335-360 gr cast bullets at about 1300-1450 fps and it's quite tame and kills anything i shoot as well as anything else i have.  if ya have a hankering for something bigger you'll only really see much of a gain going to a 500 smith and even at that the difference on game is not very noticeable.
i recently had a discussion with a fairly prominent handgun hunter on 454 vs 475 on elk.  he prefers the 475 says it kills better but he's not shot elk with anything larger than a 260 grain bullet which kinda nullifies the argument.  i've shot em with both a 475 and 454 with a variety of loads and can't tell a diff and neither can anyone else that was there.  same with bison. 
if ya want a nice 454 load.  get some beartooth 340 or better yet the 280 gr bullets they sell.  huge meplat and run them with hs6 powder to 1400fps.  very mellow with great accuracy and hits hard.  my daughter shoots them and shes 100 lbs soaking wet.  she's gonna use em on bear this year.


the short answer is what ken said above.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive owned 3 454s 2 475s and 3 500 linebaughs. Ive shot them mild and wild. All of them kick like a mule when loaded to the max. Ill say this though and its just my personal opinion. Loaded to the max with heavy bullets the 500 is the worse followed by the 475 and then the 454. Is there enough differnce to make a differnce? probably not. You wont notice the differnce unless you have them all at the range the same day.
 
 But just for an example between the 500 and the 475. Push a 420 grain bullet at 1300 fps out of both and the 475 will feel a bit sharper in recoil but thats about a max load for the 475. Step up to a 480 grain bullet out of the 500 at 1300 fps and it will defineately get on you more then the 475. Its just physics. Push a heavier bullet at the same speed and burn more powder to do it and you have more recoil. Now the 454 is scetchy in this arguement because its more designed to shoot lighter bullets at warp speed. But ive found that if comparing to identical guns, say two 83 fa guns that the 454 is heavier due to the smaller holes in the barrel and cylinder. enough that you can notice a differnce in ballance in your hand. Weight absorbs recoil. I think the main reason guys will shoot a 454 and THINK it recoils more is muzzle blast. Light bullets and lots of powder make for lots of flame and noise. Dont get me wrong muzzle blast is just as much of a detrimant to mastering a gun as actual recoil is and that more then anything makes the 454 hard to master. But if a typical load (at least in mine) for a 454 pushes say a 320 grain bullet at 1500 fps and you compare that to a 500 shooting a 480 at 1300 the 500 is going to have more push in your hand. Again its just physics. Now before someone jumps in and corrects me a 480 at 1300 is more of a load then is recomended in a 500. Most loading recomendations will stop you at about 1200 with the same bullet. Believe me when you get up to that level a 100 fps defineatly can be felt. Ive shot my 500s alot with those loads and have a buddy that will push the envelope even a bit higher with 500 grain plus bullets but that takes the 500 out of the enjoyable range for me and puts a bit of sweat on my brow. Now if you owned all three and only bought factory ammo the gap closes up fast and the 454 is everything the others are. But how many big bore pistol shooters shoot factroy ammo. Youd have to sell your home to afford to get proficient with one.
I cant comment much on the 500we or 500 jdh ive never shot the jdh and have only shot maybe 500 rounds through a we but it seemed to me anyway to kick a bit less then the 500 linebaugh. Closer to the 475 in felt recoil with top end loads. But then i havent shot anthing heavier then a 420 grain bullet out of one of them
 
Ive shot game as big as 1300 lbs with all of them and will say this, again its a subjective opnion. Bigger is better. Sure they will all kill about anything you hit in the vitals but you could add the 45 colt and 44 mag to that list too. But with truely large animals the 500s tend to slap them down faster.
Im down to 2 500 linebaughs and one 475 linebaugh right now. Finances have made me part with my 454 and 475 fa guns. But if i was looking to get another new FA right now id be looking hard at the 50we. It kind of sits in the middle of two of the finest big bore rounds the 475 and 500 line. It kind of gives you a compromise between hitting power, penetration and recoil.

[mk454]

the other thing i'd ad is to make sure ya chrony the rounds before ya compare recoil.  the boxes velocity is more of an estimation.  on my 454, the hornady standard 240 gr loads kick like hell, but velocity is not 1900 fps, it averages 2034 fps.  the federal barnes xbp loads, kick a bit but near as bad but it seems to be more recoil than a 250 gr bullet at 1530 fps (box velocity) should have but on every box i've ever chrony'd of the federal loads the average velocity is 1750 fps.
when my son was trying out his 500jrh he had some buffalo bore ammo and some grizzly ammo.  the buffalo bore load was listed at 420 gr at 1350 fps it recoiled like all hell.  actual velocity was 1480.

[RockCreek]

Not trying to oversimplify things, but I prefer my 475 Linebaugh loaded under full versus loading a 454 Casull wide open. I occasionally shoot my 7.5" SRH 454 with top end loads with a 360 Gr. cast bullet and I flat out do not like it. I plan to trade or sell it first chance I get as I have not liked it since shortly after I bought it. My 454 Casull loaded wide open kills on both ends. Too much blast, too much recoil, too much twist, etc.......Not pleasurable at all to target shoot or hunt with. This will be pretty much the case with any of these big bore handguns loaded at or near max. No fun to deal with......On the other hand, a 410 Gr. WFNGC @ 1100 fps on my 475 Linebaugh is not as uncomfortable to shoot plus you get the hunting benefit of a larger caliber. For hunting, you absolutely do not need to run these heavy cast bullets over 1200 fps, in anything. What's the point when 1150-1200 fps with a heavy cast bullet will shoot through practically anything walking? A 475 Linebaugh at 1100-1200 fps will do anything you want to do. While I wish I had a M 83 chambered exclusively for a 45 Colt, I do not (yet), but I do have a fine FA M83 475 Linebaugh which I enjoy shooting and prefer over my Casull by a wide margin. Load 'er down a bit with heavy cast bullets so you can stand to shoot it and let the large caliber do it's work. Just my two cents worth......

[Lloyd Smale]

even to defend a 454 fa gun ill say ive had 3 of them and there great guns. Thing is you dont have to run them wide open either. A good 300-350 grain 45 bullet at 1100-1200 fps will kill anything that walks and is pleasant to shoot.

[RockCreek]

Lloyd Smale, I couldn't agree more with what you say. I should have elaborated more. No doubt that any good 300-350 grain cast bullet at 1100-1200fps will throttle anything walking.....none. I have been a proponent of and saying that for longer than I can remember. That was my point and reason for an earlier post I made when I expressed a desire for a FA M83 chambered exclusively for a 45 Colt. With the longer cylinder of a M83, I would be able to seat a Cast Performance 335 Gr. cast bullet at the COL out where it should be w/o having to deep seat the bullet or excessively trim the case. Either one of which encroaches on the volume of the 45 Colt, playing havoc on pressures as they climb excessively at a sharp rate rather than the normal, progressive rate that pressure should climb when performing as it should. Cannot do this with the shorter cylinder of a FA M97. With my 45 Colts, I can get this 1200fps with a 335 Gr. cast bullet while staying a tick under 28,000 CUP and I can get 1100 fps under 20,000 CUP!! And, as you correctly noted, the same thing can be done with the 454 Casull by loading down a bit making it much more pleasurable to shoot and will kill anything walking. I just see no need for my 454 Casull since my 45 Colts will do anything my Casull will. No malice intended specifically toward the 454 Casull......And for larger calibers, same rule...1100-1200fps and just let the larger caliber do it's job (which it does very well). No substitute for caliber.........

[zac0419]

I've only been shooting a 475 FA for a few months and I can't tell you how happy I am. I loaded a 385gr at approx 1100fps (no chrony) and the recoil is no worse IMO than the 45 Colt Ruger shooting 335's at 1200.

Now saying that, and knowing how wary I was to make the jump to the 475 in fear of the recoil, I would have bought a 45 Colt had it been available. But between the 454 and the 475 I think I made the right choice for me yrmv.

[rs10mx]

Fired my new model 83 475 linebaugh 4 3/4 inch today for first time. Shot Buffalo Bore's 420 Gr. at 950 fps and Hornady 400 Gr. at 1300 fps. The Buffalo bore I thought was about like a factory 240 Gr. 44 mag load, the Hornady load would put the gun straight up above my head if I sqeezed the trigger properly and didn't antisipate the recoil. But the recoil didn't cause any pain to my hand or knuckles. It was actually quite fun to shoot. If you can shoot the 454 you shouldn't have any problems with the 475, now if it was loaded to the gills with a 420 Gr. bullet I can't commet on yet but the loads that I shot will cover any of my shooting needs.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have nothing but good to say about FA guns with one exception. I just cant see why at one point or another in there production Bob didnt do a bit of redesigning and make it so a bit longer cylinder would fit. Its allways been a stuggle with the 83s and 97s with the exception of the 44 special 97 to find GOOD bullets that fit those short cylinders.

Lloyd Smale, I couldn't agree more with what you say. I should have elaborated more. No doubt that any good 300-350 grain cast bullet at 1100-1200fps will throttle anything walking.....none. I have been a proponent of and saying that for longer than I can remember. That was my point and reason for an earlier post I made when I expressed a desire for a FA M83 chambered exclusively for a 45 Colt. With the longer cylinder of a M83, I would be able to seat a Cast Performance 335 Gr. cast bullet at the COL out where it should be w/o having to deep seat the bullet or excessively trim the case. Either one of which encroaches on the volume of the 45 Colt, playing havoc on pressures as they climb excessively at a sharp rate rather than the normal, progressive rate that pressure should climb when performing as it should. Cannot do this with the shorter cylinder of a FA M97. With my 45 Colts, I can get this 1200fps with a 335 Gr. cast bullet while staying a tick under 28,000 CUP and I can get 1100 fps under 20,000 CUP!! And, as you correctly noted, the same thing can be done with the 454 Casull by loading down a bit making it much more pleasurable to shoot and will kill anything walking. I just see no need for my 454 Casull since my 45 Colts will do anything my Casull will. No malice intended specifically toward the 454 Casull......And for larger calibers, same rule...1100-1200fps and just let the larger caliber do it's job (which it does very well). No substitute for caliber.........

[RockCreek]

As Lloyd Smale said, cylinder length has been a thorn in the side of FA M97 handgunners forever and a day. I want a FA 45 Colt so bad I can taste it, but given a choice, I would rather have the M97 instead of the M83 because of the considerable weight savings. A M97 45 Colt sure would be a lot easier to carry than the M83. Since most shooters of the 45 Colt are not stoking the loads up over 28,000 CUP, the extra mass of the M83 to withstand very high pressures is not needed. A M97 would do just fine for the 45 Colt, if the cylinder was a tad longer. A 300-335 gr. cast bullet for a 45 Colt just needs 1000fps-1100fps for just about any practical hunting purpose. If a person was so inclined, they can easily load a 45 Colt to the 1200fps area while still staying under 28,000 CUP which will shoot through anything in North America. These pressures are no issue for the FA M97, nowhere near the 50,000+ CUP some shooters generate through their M83's. But cylinder length certainly is a M97 issue, no doubt about that.......... I have a fine M83 475 Linebaugh (which I absolutely love), but I do not come even close to approaching those 50,000+ pressures......no need to. Just 1100-1200fps and let the large caliber 410gr. WFNGC cast bullet do the rest.
 
At the considerable personal risk of being flamed by all those that are caught up in all the hoopla generated by the big-bore, high-volume case, magnum crowd, there are many amongst us that are totally clueless about the full capability of a 45 Colt. I either own, have owned, and/or shot them all......If I could only own, shoot, carry, and hunt with one handgun, zero doubt about my choice........the 45 Colt. This is one fine round.
 
So, things are as they are and I shoot the 45 Colts I do own......
 
I do not think lobbying for a "45 Colt only" M83 will change the current state of affairs but I do think Freedom Arms is missing a large market by not making the cylinder a tad longer for the 45 Colt in a M97.
 
RockCreek

[ole 5 hole group]

A M97 would do just fine for the 45 Colt, if the cylinder was a tad longer.
A 300-335 gr. cast bullet for a 45 Colt just needs 1000fps-1100fps for just about any practical hunting purpose.
I do not think lobbying for a "45 Colt only" M83 will change the current state of affairs but I do think Freedom Arms is missing a large market by not making the cylinder a tad longer for the 45 Colt in a M97.RockCreek

Don't let the cylinder stop ya from purchasing it - you might say the M97 was designed around the small cylinder and you just have to make due.  I've got the 97 and have found plenty of bullets that fit that cylinder from 250 grain XTP's to 325 grain cast from beartooth bullets.
 
If you cast your own, just get a dual crimp ring mold and you're home free.
 
My problem with the M97 is the twist rate.  I couldn't get the 325 grain under an inch until I went 1,125fps, which isn't full-bore but it's close to getting your attention.  You can push it to 1,300fps or better - I have, but it's not a user friendly environment and the groups opened to 2.5" and better.
 
A very pleasant load that I found that consistently shot under an inch was from 9.2 grains of VV N340 behind a 255 grain cast SWC (keith style) and that usually gave me between 0.5" and 0.75" depending upon my wiggle & wobble from 25 yards rested - sometimes I'd get 4 in or under 0.5" and then one would make it an inch or better but that's just me doing what I do best - messin' up a fine group.

[RockCreek]

ole 5 hole group, I checked the twist rates listed on the Freedom Arms website. The M97 chambered for the 45 Colt is listed as having a 1-24" twist. The M83 chambered for the 454 Casull is also listed as having a 1-24" twist. Of course, you probably know you can order an extra 45 Colt cylinder for the M83 454 Casull. I occasionally shoot my friends M83 with his 45 Colt cylinder. I am shooting Cast Performance 335gr. cast bullets at around 1100fps with H-110. I have not noticed any accuracy issues with his FA M83 revolver with the 1-24" twist. Do you think the M97 chambered for the 45 Colt would benefit from a faster twist?

RockCreek

[Lloyd Smale]

no doubt true and ill throw my favorite the 44mag in the mix too. Ive owned and shot the big guns for close to 30 years now. Ive ownd in that time 500s 475s 454s 45colts 44 mags ect and id say 90 percent of the game ive taken with handguns up to the size of buffalo have been taking with 44 mags. Most days if you find me in the woods theres a 44 of some sort on my hip. Truth be told if it cant be killed cleanly with a 44 or 45 using heavy cast bullets youd better put your bigger guns in the holster so you can run a little faster. I still enjoy hunting and shooting the big guns but when i reach for a tool it usually has 44 on it somewhere. [quote author=RockCreek link=topic=270085.msg1099637972#msg1099637972 date=1357486.
 QUOTE
At the considerable personal risk of being flamed by all those that are caught up in all the hoopla generated by the big-bore, high-volume case, magnum crowd, there are many amongst us that are totally clueless about the full capability of a 45 Colt. I either own, have owned, and/or shot them all......If I could only own, shoot, carry, and hunt with one handgun, zero doubt about my choice........the 45 Colt. This is one fine round.
 

 
RockCreek

[ole 5 hole group]

Do you think the M97 chambered for the 45 Colt would benefit from a faster twist?RockCreek

I think a faster twist rate like a 1:16 or a 1:18 would be about right.  Linebaugh uses a 1:18 on his 45 Colts, I think Ruger uses a 1:16 and S&W uses a 1:18.5 - I think some of the other custom boys use a 1:18.  No clue as to why FA choose the 1:24 but both the 83 and 97 shoot mighty fine when you find their sweet spot.
 
With a faster twist rate you can run accurately with all bullet weights at slower speeds - that's a general statement and doesn't work in all cases.  When I first owned the 97 I called FA and spoke to John about my accuracy concerns and he told me what the FA test load was and that puppy was pushed close to warp speed, so in a nut shell, the 97 has to be pushed pretty hard for great accuracy.  To me, great accuracy from a revolver is from 0.5" to an inch at 25 yards and right at 2" at 50 yards rested with a 5 shot-group.