45-70 FTF....

[cwlongshot]

I got a call Friday from a good old friend. He bought a H&R a couple years back on my suggestion.  Its a very pretty stainless Cinn thumb hole 45-70.

Seems he has been having occasional failure to fire problems since day one. Seems it was the last straw when a nice buck stepped out on the last day of the season and he had three clicks and watched the deer walk away...

 He dropped it off yesterday for me to look at...
First off, I tired a couple primed cases, sure enough just click. (Very light hits) Then I checked head space by feeling and looking at the case fully seated in the chamber. It was about .002-.003 below flush, so a little deeply chambered. I then checked the proper function of the disconnector. (transfer bar) It was standing tall and even tryng to short pull the trigger it was working just fine. Next I checked pin protrusion. It was .025. Again, a lil short... I tore the action apart. In doing so I found the latch barely engaging the shelf... I am talking about 15-20% engagement. First I took .020 off the hammer face to allow the firing pin more travel. I re assembled the action with a bit of anti sleeze and a Wolffe HD spring.  Then I looked at the barrels shelf. I stoned the shelf square and re checked engagement. It was a bit better but still only at about 25%. So, I filed off a couple thousandths more and stoned flat and square again. Now I have about 60-65% engagement, much better.

I sized and primed six more cases and test fired, every one went bang and was left with a positive deep firing pin strike. 

I called my friend back and explained what I found. He stopped by today and picked it up, he was happy as my first thought was a disconnecter. I did not think I had any, but I did find a couple of them. Just did not need them. 

ALL FIXED!

CW

[gcrank1]

My UH may be from the same batch, the purchase time sounds close. I had short F-Pin protrusion too (fixed that) and ultimately the ocassional FTF became most of the time; that promted my long treatise (you may recall) on addressing the whole T-Bar function. End game was the Striker portion was too short and my mods did keep it high long enough, but the 'timing' had to be perfectly set up. Trials were positive, though not a lot of rounds before receiving a new, current production T-Bar. It looked so much better that rather than risk a failure in the field I installed it straight away and solved my issue for sure.
It is a fine shooter now  .

[bucmeister]

gcrank1,

Could you remind me where you got your striker from, was it Numrich or directly from H&R. 

[gcrank1]

 A friend sent it to me.
BTW, you may not get the currently used production one from Gun Parts. Im not sure they know the difference either.

[revbc]

Had the same problem on a used one I bought.  Got a good price on it because of the FTF.  Brian sent me all the internals to solve the problem.  Shoot great now.

Bobby

[bucmeister]

gcrank1,

I do believe you are correct.  My FIL bought a Handi in 35Whelen yesterday and dropped by my office to show it today and there is definitely a difference in the striker assembly when compared to mine.  First it does not have the sloped off aspect to the hammer side, which the one I received from Numrich also did not, however one very distinct difference I noticed was how much higher the striker sits when the hammer is at full cock and timing gap between the hammer dropping the lifter and the trigger extension catching it is almost imperceptible plus the extension holds the lifter higher as well.

revbc,

How did you directly contact Brian to get him to send you the parts?  I would much prefer to get some parts to drop in and take my chances versus having to ship the whole gun back in again.   What all did you get from him, obviously a current production lifter/striker assembly, anything else?  Thanks, buc 

Also, what did you figure out on the gun you were having issues with, something about the hammer would not cock back or the latch would not release??  Don't remember the details just not sure I ever saw the resolution.

[gcrank1]

IMHO, if the Striker/Lifter is the proper one the orig. Trigger Extension will likely be fine. You should check the F-Pin protrusion (only as far as the hammer & Striker make it protrude) and depending upon breech fit and rim cut will influence if you should change it or not (do not do this unless needed and there is a max protrusion for CFs) .
My guess is that the too short Striker is squirting out from the hammer blow, thus not imparting the pin to primer hit hardly at all.

[revbc]

Buc,

Contacted Brian here by PM.  If I remember correctly I received the hammer, spring, striker lifter, and trigger.

[bucmeister]

Buc,

Contacted Brian here by PM.  If I remember correctly I received the hammer, spring, striker lifter, and trigger.

Thank you for the information.  Will give that a shot.

[cwlongshot]

Too funny...

I composed this post first and formost for information on fixing handis yourself. Hopefully it will help others with this fairly common issue.
 Secondly and to a lesser degree, to show that its NOT always a transfer bar causing these issues.
Its well known H&R uses crappy springs! Well what happens... Everyone posts up and tells there transfer bar FTF problems and fixes.
I'm twisted sometimes, I know, I find it ironic and amusing its become all about the transfer bar again. But it's all good, because my first intent was to be informative and helpful and with all the posts I think we have accomplished this!

Kudos brothers,
CW

[quickdtoo]

Thanks CW, it's all good and another welcome addition to the FAQs.  Personally I think misfires are a the result of a combination of issues, the perfect storm for misfires if you will, deep chamber, weak hammer spring, bad t-bar/or timing, insufficient pin travel, all on top of the fact that the pin isn't in line with the bore, it strikes down at an angle which can further complicate the issue. 

Tim

[bucmeister]

I don't mind doing my own work, just want to be able to get the correct part.  My particular gun has the shiny silver striker that has the angle cut on the top with the slope to the hammer side, the problem with that striker, which I believe gcrank1 diagnosed correctly, is that the cut and angle contributes to the striker not getting a full impact (if) the trigger extension does not hold it up quite high enough.  He likened it to a water melon seed squeezed between one's thumb and finger.  It appears on the new 35 Whelen that my FIL bought has a taller blued steel looking striker that has more of a flat top with slightly rounded edges similar to the front side of my striker and it definitely sticks up higher when the hammer is cocked and when the trigger releases the hammer and hold the striker up with the trigger extension it stays further up for a more solid engagement with the firing pin. 

I think I have the near perfect storm described by quickdtoo, a hammer that needs more of the face cut down for pin protrusion, which I can fix with a diamond stone and a bit of time, it also has a short striker with an angle cut on the back side which can possibly be overcome by adding some metal to the lifter portion of the hammer because the one I received from Numrich is even shorter and would not cause the firing pin to protrude when I held the hammer back pulled the trigger and eased the hammer down.  Also an improved version of the trigger extension because mine seems way short causing a big gap in the timing between hammer release and extension getting into position. 

Hopefully, I can get some current parts like revbc did and resolve the whole issue vs having to spend a good bit of time doing trial and error fitting.  Only up side I can see to sending the whole rifle back is to have that odd ring just in front of the throat looked at by Brian56.  Though for the few shots I have made it does seem to be fairly accurate.  Hard to separate whether it is the barrel or my tenseness over having to snap the trigger to get the extension into place fast enough.

And guys, thank all of you for your input and willingness to let me prattle on about this issue.  Your patience is appreciated.

[Little Doc]

hello, I have ftf on two handi's. one is a .223 the other is 45-70. after reading this i think the timing to keep the trigger extension in place longer is the major problem. although the lifter is short and beveled to the hammer side as described here. the lifter in the 45-70 was sloppy and i peened it as recomended on another thread, this put it back to firing but if pointed down the lifter in this gun catches on the rear of the firing pin if held up it falls back and does not catch. i tried peening the lifter in the .223 and it did not want to tighten up so with more work it did and is a little stiff now. it still will not shoot. even if you hold the trigger and manually hold the hammer back and release it. looks like i need parts. who is Brian? from above post i can't know. hesitate to order from numrich for reasons described above. any help will be appreciated.
m

[bucmeister]

On the H&R Centerfire Rifles main page in the sticky subjects at the top you will see a thread titled  "Thanks to Brian56"  that will clue you in on who they are referring to.  Bottom line, he works for H&R/Remington and has given much help to many on Graybeard Outdoors and I am sure many others.

[Little Doc]

thanks bucmeister
still trying to find my way around here.
m

[bucmeister]

thanks bucmeister
still trying to find my way around here.
m

Glad to help, I am still relatively new here myself and I've got to tell you that these guys have been great about helping a newby out by sharing their collective wealth of knowledge and experiences with these rifles. 

[gcrank1]

CW, you started out with huntin' wabbits and then, like so often here, we got to other critters; just like a bunch o' boys around the fire after a day on the range........
Its all good though, any of this workin' through problems. The thing we all got to watch out for is that dang 'assumin'; each part has a function and they all work together, but working on the wrong part or out of sequence for total function has resulted in more than a fair bit of frustration (never been there myself, of course...just speculatin'.... )  .

[blind ear]

CW, don't do that to me. I been feared to look at this post since it came up. I imagined a problem that you couldn't fix. Gave me a bad feeling in my stomech. Glad that I was wrong, again. Thanks for the good instruction and interesting posts. ear