Good Day

[Hairy Chest]

Good Day means at 8 p.m. last night before my plumber went, I asked, "Do you have any lead?"  He says Yes.   So he reaches in the back of his, shall we say, well stocked vehicle and gives me a 5# octagon.  Up and bright in the a.m. I set up the casting equipment and drop in the ingot.  Today, here is what I made.  They are BH of 30 and pushed through a Lee sizer with LBT Soft.  I could have loaded them today if I wanted to.  As for the messy lube, don't worry.  These pistol rounds will be dropping soup cans at 100 yards. 

[Lloyd Smale]

I cant imagine what kind of lead a plumber would have that is 30bhn. Thats monotype hard! Id guess what he gave you if it truely is that hard is some kind of  high tin content solder and if it is its sure a waste to use straight in the pot to cast bullets with.

[Hairy Chest]

I cant imagine what kind of lead a plumber would have that is 30bhn. Thats monotype hard! Id guess what he gave you if it truely is that hard is some kind of  high tin content solder and if it is its sure a waste to use straight in the pot to cast bullets with.

It was a pure octagon. I of course added a few ingredients.  They are harder today!  We'll see.   

[mdi]

The Water Utility Workers' trucks that I repaired/serviced always had a dozen or so of those ingots (octogon) laying around (a large city Water & Power department). All those I encountered over 25 years (borrowed?) were pure lead...

[Hairy Chest]

The Water Utility Workers' truck that I repaired/serviced always had a dozen or so of those ingots (octogon) laying around (a large city Water & Power department). All those I encountered over 25 years (borrowed?) were pure lead...

Yes they are.  It doesn't take much to bring them up to speed really.  It's easier to make alloy from pure than it is to flux a pot.  You may not think so, but that's really the way it is.  Both bullets yesterday shot 1 moa from two guns.  I shot 120 rounds of slugs weighing 265-450 grains and I've got another 180 to load.  And all that from my plumber reaching down in his bin and saying, "Here, #$%hole."   

[theratdog]

nice find buddy happy shooting

[Lloyd Smale]

My guess is what you have there isnt plumbers lead but is solder of some sort. Probably a high tin content solder and thats why you bullets are so hard. Just for grins cast one out of that alloy and one out of pure to see what the differnce in weight is. Plumbers and utility workers use solder. you may be casting bullets out of an alloy thats way to valuable to use like that.

[mdi]

Nope, the ones used by L.A. Department of Water and Power are lead. Lead is used to seal seams on cast iron water pipe joints...

[Lloyd Smale]

i gurantee you that if those bullets are 30bhn its sure not pure lead he has. Even lynotype isnt that hard. You have to get into alloys like monotype in lead to get that hard. Plumbers do not carry around type metal. If its harder then pure and a plumber has it its a tin solder alloy of some type. I even have to question that as even babbit isnt that hard. About the only alloy i know of that will give you 30bhn is foundry type. Its pushing it with most alloys to even get 30bhn water dropping bullets. What are you testing your bhn with? If it is truely the lead that is used to seal cast iron pipes it should be pure or real close to it and shouldnt be testing any higher then 6bhn. Like i said even solder alloys dont test that high. About the only way to get hardness like that is by adding antinony to your alloy. Plumbers would use it because it would be so brittle that there solder seams would crack and leak.

[Hairy Chest]

i gurantee you that if those bullets are 30bhn its sure not pure lead he has. Even lynotype isnt that hard. You have to get into alloys like monotype in lead to get that hard. Plumbers do not carry around type metal. If its harder then pure and a plumber has it its a tin solder alloy of some type. I even have to question that as even babbit isnt that hard. About the only alloy i know of that will give you 30bhn is foundry type. Its pushing it with most alloys to even get 30bhn water dropping bullets. What are you testing your bhn with? If it is truely the lead that is used to seal cast iron pipes it should be pure or real close to it and shouldnt be testing any higher then 6bhn. Like i said even solder alloys dont test that high. About the only way to get hardness like that is by adding antinony to your alloy. Plumbers would use it because it would be so brittle that there solder seams would crack and leak.

The bullets are hard, BH 30, but they are ductile.  The best of both worlds.   

[Land_Owner]

How was BH# ascertained?  Testing device?

[Hairy Chest]

How was BH# ascertained?  Testing device?

I use the Lee tester.  I measured once when they were casted but no need to keep checking.  All my bullets are hard but ductile.  That is the way we want them, so we can push these bullets to their top potential.  It is working because all loads are max loads and there are no pressure signs, like would be if I was using a soft bullet.  Soft bullet swells in bore increasing friction.  Same problem can be had with wrong lube. Harden the bullet and use a good soft lube, like LBT soft, and there is no need to reduce performance, but increase it. 

[Lloyd Smale]

id sure like to know the alloy? This isnt my first rodeo, ive been casting for over 30 years and have never seen an air cooled alloy other then monotype that gave 30bhn and ive yet to see in my life any alloy that was that hard and still ductable whether that 30bhn came from air cooled or heat treated alloys, and have never seen anything a plumber would have that was near that hard other the solder and even solder doesnt test that hard on a tester. Something is amiss as youve got something there that no caster has ever seen. Ive been given many of those oct. shaped igots form plumblers too and for the most part they were pure lead that tested about 7 bhn on my tester. Must be something majic in those ingots. My guess your lead tester is way off in its readings or im missinterpeting something in this post but theres just on alloys short of monotype that test 30bhn air cooled unless you have cadium or zinc. Just sizing bullets that are truely 30 bhn is a chore. I know a ton of casters that would pay some pretty dammed good money for a bunch of alloy like that.

[Hairy Chest]

id sure like to know the alloy? This isnt my first rodeo, ive been casting for over 30 years and have never seen an air cooled alloy other then monotype that gave 30bhn and ive yet to see in my life any alloy that was that hard and still ductable whether that 30bhn came from air cooled or heat treated alloys, and have never seen anything a plumber would have that was near that hard other the solder and even solder doesnt test that hard on a tester. Something is amiss as youve got something there that no caster has ever seen. Ive been given many of those oct. shaped igots form plumblers too and for the most part they were pure lead that tested about 7 bhn on my tester. Must be something majic in those ingots. My guess your lead tester is way off in its readings or im missinterpeting something in this post but theres just on alloys short of monotype that test 30bhn air cooled unless you have cadium or zinc. Just sizing bullets that are truely 30 bhn is a chore. I know a ton of casters that would pay some pretty dammed good money for a bunch of alloy like that.

I don't excited about hardness.  It is just what is.  Why would anyone pay a lot of money for it?  I know my bullets are harder than Montana Bullet Works.  Those tested out at BH 21 as advertised.  Over time his became softer BH 18 after one year.  I think he uses tin.  But mine are really up there.  I explained my recipe.  Let's not get bent out of shape about it.  Everybody already agreed each person has their own personal preference for how they do things.  Right?  I add antimony and water drop.  You keep referring to 'air cooled'.  Why?  I've been making bullets with a BH of 30 for 3 years now.  I think maybe the problem people have is they don't hold the press handle steady, so they get a bigger dimple.  My hand is very steady so maybe that is it. 

I've got an idea.  I can test a store bought bullet and mine.  I just don't have a store bought bullet, but when I get one, I'll make a dimple, then do one of mine and post a picture.  OK?   

[FPH]

Nice find on the lead, and nice casting.

[FPH]

Water quenched or air.....I missed that.

[Lloyd Smale]

well that clairifys it a bit if your water dropping or heat treating. What is you hardness with that alloy if your not water dropping? Why do you feel you need to water drop. I cant really see a need in a bullet that hard unless your trying to shoot cast in a rifle at jacketed velocitys. Granted i would probably be the first one to say it sure doesnt hurt anything to run them that hard but water dropping adds work and I only do it when i cant put together an alloy hard enough for the purpose im going to use a bullet for.

[dakotashooter2]

Nope, the ones used by L.A. Department of Water and Power are lead. Lead is used to seal seams on cast iron water pipe joints...

If they are they must be very old.................... I can't imagine CA, as regulated as they are, allowing the use of lead to seal seams even as a repair measure on older water pipe.. Something with high tin content would make more sense. According to CA you can die from lead just by looking at it...................

[Hairy Chest]

well that clairifys it a bit if your water dropping or heat treating. What is you hardness with that alloy if your not water dropping? Why do you feel you need to water drop. I cant really see a need in a bullet that hard unless your trying to shoot cast in a rifle at jacketed velocitys. Granted i would probably be the first one to say it sure doesnt hurt anything to run them that hard but water dropping adds work and I only do it when i cant put together an alloy hard enough for the purpose im going to use a bullet for.

How does it add work?  The bullets fall into a bucket.  Bucket gets dumped and bullets dry on a towel. 

[Hairy Chest]

Nope, the ones used by L.A. Department of Water and Power are lead. Lead is used to seal seams on cast iron water pipe joints...

If they are they must be very old.................... I can't imagine CA, as regulated as they are, allowing the use of lead to seal seams even as a repair measure on older water pipe.. Something with high tin content would make more sense. According to CA you can die from lead just by looking at it...................

The law was passed in 2009.  It prohibits lead where it could result in human consumption.  So, there is still plumbers lead in California.  But who's complaining?   All the non-Californians.   

[Hairy Chest]

well that clairifys it a bit if your water dropping or heat treating. What is you hardness with that alloy if your not water dropping? Why do you feel you need to water drop. I cant really see a need in a bullet that hard unless your trying to shoot cast in a rifle at jacketed velocitys. Granted i would probably be the first one to say it sure doesnt hurt anything to run them that hard but water dropping adds work and I only do it when i cant put together an alloy hard enough for the purpose im going to use a bullet for.

OK, here's a new batch.  I let the first bullet drop onto the table.  The rest went into the bucket.  I then did a BH test with Lee tester, 1-2 hrs later. 

Left:  Air Cooled BH 12.1
Right:  Water Dropped BH 27.2.



 

[Lloyd Smale]

your majic alloy is probably wheel weight. Those are about spot on with what i get with it. Air coolded 10-12bhn (ww varies quite a bit batch to batch) and water dropped 25-30. I have no clue what a plumber would be doing with an alloy like that though. Nice thing is thats a decent alloy for shooting. Air cooled it would be good in about any handgun load and water dropped it would work eaisly up to 2000 fps in a rifle. If its ductible like you said my guess is someone added some tin to the mix along the way. If your tin percentage is higher then your antimony you usualy get a ductable bullet. Normal ww has more antimony in it then lead and can be brittle when water dropped.

[Hairy Chest]

your majic alloy is probably wheel weight. Those are about spot on with what i get with it. Air coolded 10-12bhn (ww varies quite a bit batch to batch) and water dropped 25-30. I have no clue what a plumber would be doing with an alloy like that though. Nice thing is thats a decent alloy for shooting. Air cooled it would be good in about any handgun load and water dropped it would work eaisly up to 2000 fps in a rifle. If its ductible like you said my guess is someone added some tin to the mix along the way. If your tin percentage is higher then your antimony you usualy get a ductable bullet. Normal ww has more antimony in it then lead and can be brittle when water dropped.

The alloy is 50/50 with no tin added. So you are right in a sense.  It is more ductile than fragile WW's but not due to tin. I just didn't add antimony like I added to the plumber's patty, and with both I came close to the goal, which was a ductile but hard alloy. 

[Lloyd Smale]

is your alloy a 5050 mix of the plumbers lead and ww? If so thats a real good alloy water dropped and will give the performance your talking about. Its a bit more ductable then straight ww when warter dropped. Only thing is ive never gotten that alloy to 30bhn. At least not on my lbt, seaco or cabintree tester. Id say it goes closer to 22-25 dropped and 30 if oven quenched.

[Hairy Chest]

is your alloy a 5050 mix of the plumbers lead and ww? If so thats a real good alloy water dropped and will give the performance your talking about. Its a bit more ductable then straight ww when warter dropped. Only thing is ive never gotten that alloy to 30bhn. At least not on my lbt, seaco or cabintree tester. Id say it goes closer to 22-25 dropped and 30 if oven quenched.

Plumber's lead, stick-on ww's mixed with clip-on, whatever I can get my hands on to soften the alloy with pure.  It starts out as 50/50 as a baseline, then I bring it up with antimony. There is no easier, faster way to have alloy.  And it all started when I read LBT's book about what works, then decided to be lazy and threw everything together, like one big New World Order into a melting pot. Simplify things.  No sorting or worrying that they are together.  You bring them all together, then you add what is needed to get the mix to work for you.  Little tin is used.  If you want extra hardness, add some mag shot to the mix. 

[Lloyd Smale]

youd get a kick out of my favorite alloy. Its an alloy that goes about 16bhn and to be honest i dont have a clue how to duplicate it. A couple years back my pole barn that i loaded in burned to the ground. I had probably a tons of lead and a couple hundred lbs of tin. The lead was a hodgepodge of pure, ww, linotype, and monotype. The barn had a dirt floor and after the burned junk was hauled out i found about half the area of the barn had a laver of melted lead. Floor was dirt so it had rock and dirt imbedded in it. It took me all summer but i smelted it all back down. I did it in 100 lb batches and after i was done i then combined equal ammouts of each batch into new batches and did it all over again and then to make sure it was consistant i did it a third time. Ive never had an alloy that casted as nice as this alloy. I ended up recovering about what i figured was 1400 lbs. Ive got probably half that left now but once its gone its gone and i find myself being stingy with it just like i am with tin or linotype

[Hairy Chest]

youd get a kick out of my favorite alloy. Its an alloy that goes about 16bhn and to be honest i dont have a clue how to duplicate it. A couple years back my pole barn that i loaded in burned to the ground. I had probably a tons of lead and a couple hundred lbs of tin. The lead was a hodgepodge of pure, ww, linotype, and monotype. The barn had a dirt floor and after the burned junk was hauled out i found about half the area of the barn had a laver of melted lead. Floor was dirt so it had rock and dirt imbedded in it. It took me all summer but i smelted it all back down. I did it in 100 lb batches and after i was done i then combined equal ammouts of each batch into new batches and did it all over again and then to make sure it was consistant i did it a third time. Ive never had an alloy that casted as nice as this alloy. I ended up recovering about what i figured was 1400 lbs. Ive got probably half that left now but once its gone its gone and i find myself being stingy with it just like i am with tin or linotype

How about bullet weight, Lloyd?  Cast and measure.  If the bullets come out too light, add pure. If too heavy, add Sb. 

[AtlLaw]

Ive never had an alloy that casted as nice as this alloy.

That right there is good 'nuff reason to have the alloy tested Lloyd!  Then you could let us know what the mixture is!   

[Hairy Chest]

Ive never had an alloy that casted as nice as this alloy.

That right there is good 'nuff reason to have the alloy tested Lloyd!  Then you could let us know what the mixture is!   

I just tested bullets cast 1 week ago.  They had BH of 27.  Now it is BH 33, on the nose and on the base. 

No rocket science here.