Author Topic: Meet John Bull (Read 1973 times)

cannonmn · « **on:** August 17, 2012, 04:35:37 PM »

John Bull is about 20" long, has a 1.5" bore, was cast by Thomas Pyke of Bridgewater, Somerset, England ca. 1780. See slideshow, password is "attack." http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/Forums62/Pyke%20Swivel/?albumview=slideshow

Here's information from an ad by Pyke in the Western Post Flyer (newspaper,) 1 January, 1781.

He advertised brass guns of his own make in 1781. These had a spring mounting "to aid pointing." 6, 4, and 2 pdr. guns were offered. Charges: 6 pdr: 14 oz. 4 pdr: 10 oz. 2 pdr: 6 oz.

I don't know of any other T. Pyke guns that have survived, do you? What kind of springs did he use and how were they connected to the perforated "U"-shaped part of the stool?

GGaskill · « **Reply #1 on:** August 17, 2012, 05:14:56 PM »

A nice piece to be sure. Regarding the spring, I would think it would be a flat spring of some kind. Are there any wear marks underneath that might tell a tale? Is the mount purported to be original?

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** August 17, 2012, 07:39:59 PM »

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Are there any wear marks underneath that might tell a tale? Is the mount purported to be original?

I didn't see any distinctive wear marks, the iron yoke has a fair amount of corrosion, presumably from saltwater, so that may conceal any wear marks. The iron yoke and stool are original to the tube as far as I can tell. The wood block is a 20th C. item which was added so the piece could be displayed upright.

GGaskill · « **Reply #3 on:** August 17, 2012, 09:19:07 PM »

Does it have a normal preponderance? Is the elevation device springily mounted to the yoke?

Cannoneer · « **Reply #4 on:** August 17, 2012, 09:31:31 PM »

The form and decoration make for a distinctive swivel gun. A quick look turned up a Thomas Pyke of Bridgwater Foundry casting bells for churches in the Somerset area in the 1780's.
What informs you that the JB stands for John Bull?
Was there any other information in the advertisement regarding the springs that facilitated aiming (that's a new one on me)?

cannonmn · « **Reply #5 on:** August 17, 2012, 10:50:07 PM »

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Does it have a normal preponderance? Is the elevation device springily mounted to the yoke?

There is absolutely zero preponderance, perfectly balanced, which is a bit unusual even for a swivel. There is no spring in the way the stool is mounted, it is forged solidly to the yoke.

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What informs you that the JB stands for John Bull?
Was there any other information in the advertisement regarding the springs that facilitated aiming (that's a new one on me)?

I copied what was in A.N. Kennard's GUNS AND GUNFOUNDERS (pp. 130) completely above, so that's all I have. The initials engraved on the gun, "JB" are presumably those of a former owner. I just threw in the name "John Bull" for fun. I seem to recall that in England John Bull is a mythical character representing England itself, kind of like our Uncle Sam is to the U.S.

steelcharge · « **Reply #6 on:** August 18, 2012, 05:56:42 AM »

Really unique looking, beautiful piece. Thanks for posting it!

Could it be possible that the spring system was only in the larger guns?
The ad listed 6, 4 and 2pdr guns as having the spring system, and this one is clearly too small to be a 2pdr,
so maybe the larger ones were of different type?

irishman · « **Reply #7 on:** August 18, 2012, 06:48:56 AM »

Beautiful piece!!

Michael

KABAR2 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 18, 2012, 06:49:40 AM »

What I find interesting is that the mount is actually what you would expect to see with a 17th century breech loading swivel gun where a rod elevated or lowered the rear of the gun...... although from what I can see from such small photo's the degree of corrosion on the mount should be equal to the degree of wear/corrosion on the bronze tube itself..... and it seems to be in excellent shape..... there is no discoloration on the trunnions where two dissimilar metals were suffering the effects of the elements...... any info where it was found and when?

cannonmn · « **Reply #9 on:** August 18, 2012, 03:39:26 PM »

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Could it be possible that the spring system was only in the larger guns?

Well, I posted here the same day I got this thing, so my level of knowledge about it is pretty much the same as everyone else's here. But having said that, I will venture the opinion that if you've seen lots of swivel guns with original yokes and stools, the stools are usually very simple flat or slightly curved pieces, usually narrower than the gun at the point where they touch the breech.

In this piece, the situation is quite different, the stool is a very large "U" which encloses the breech completely on both sides, and both "branches" are perforated with six holes. That could only mean something very different is going on here. To me anyway, that's for the spring or springs, and the only question is how many springs, what kind, and what were the two(?) points of attachment. Sorry, dunno, gotta keep working on those questions.

Maybe I'll find out who "JB" was before I get the spring thing figured out, who knows? I've really surprised myself in the past by eventually figuring out the correct name associated with several cannons bearing only one, two, or three initials.

cannonmn · « **Reply #10 on:** August 18, 2012, 08:04:26 PM »

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What I find interesting is that the mount is actually what you would expect to see with a 17th century breech loading swivel gun where a rod elevated or lowered the rear of the gun...... although from what I can see from such small photo's the degree of corrosion on the mount should be equal to the degree of wear/corrosion on the bronze tube itself..... and it seems to be in excellent shape..... there is no discoloration on the trunnions where two dissimilar metals were suffering the effects of the elements...... any info where it was found and when?

Allen, no idea where/when "found" but I think it is safe to say it appears to have been on land and in collections for quite some time. I'd have to guess that when the small merchant ship or large yacht which carried this cannon was taken out of service, the gun came off and remained with the original ship owner (JB?) as a keepsake.

I didn't detect any particular inconsistency regarding the condition of the two metals, although I see what you are saying. The wrought iron has a good deal of corrosion and there's no damage at all that can be seen on the bronze. All I can say is that it looks like the iron was the "sacrificial metal" in this case. The swivel yoke looks like it has been attached to the tube for a very long time. Underneath, there's a typical flattened collision point on the bronze tube where it repeatedly struck the iron yoke when unsecured.

Bob Smith · « **Reply #11 on:** August 19, 2012, 01:51:38 AM »

We have a couple of instances of 18th century swivel guns with similiar yokes for adjustment.
Mr Pyke seems to have been very mult--talented; found this for sale on the internet: http://www.bamfords-auctions.co.uk/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=FASEPT10&LotRef=2279
He also gets a special mention here: (on page 106) : http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=orcvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=%22Pyke%22+Bridgewater&source=bl&ots=VONAgzYPfv&sig=T4uV-G1uvPuvDqwZx58kW0JuURQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vtIwUPrMGuit0QWm5YDoDA&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q=%22Pyke%22%20Bridgewater&f=false
Bob Smith

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** August 19, 2012, 11:26:05 AM »

Bob, thanks much, I didn't find either one of those items when I googled the name. Just shows a lot depends on exactly how you make the entry.

I'm wondering if the clock maker could have been the son of the cannon founder? I wonder simply because a Thomas Pyke was casting cannons in 1780, and the clocks date from 1820-25. I know those bronze and brass founders were usually in it for life, and 40 years back then isn't terribly long for such a career, but I don't know the English tradition for suffixes to names of offspring, and whether such were used as a rule, or were optional.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 19, 2012, 11:30:03 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on August 18, 2012, 08:04:26 PM

Quote
What I find interesting is that the mount is actually what you would expect to see with a 17th century breech loading swivel gun where a rod elevated or lowered the rear of the gun...... although from what I can see from such small photo's the degree of corrosion on the mount should be equal to the degree of wear/corrosion on the bronze tube itself..... and it seems to be in excellent shape..... there is no discoloration on the trunnions where two dissimilar metals were suffering the effects of the elements...... any info where it was found and when?

Allen, no idea where/when "found" but I think it is safe to say it appears to have been on land and in collections for quite some time. I'd have to guess that when the small merchant ship or large yacht which carried this cannon was taken out of service, the gun came off and remained with the original ship owner (JB?) as a keepsake.

I didn't detect any particular inconsistency regarding the condition of the two metals, although I see what you are saying. The wrought iron has a good deal of corrosion and there's no damage at all that can be seen on the bronze. All I can say is that it looks like the iron was the "sacrificial metal" in this case. The swivel yoke looks like it has been attached to the tube for a very long time. Underneath, there's a typical flattened collision point on the bronze tube where it repeatedly struck the iron yoke when unsecured.

John,
As I mentioned in my earlier post the yoke looks more like a 17th century style where a rod was used through the holes for elevation..... I am thinking there are probably different grades of iron used for various construction.... perhaps a softer or inferior grade was used in the construction of the yoke as a cost savings/or profit motive? ... the iron being softer would degrade more rapidly than a better grade iron hence the rather poor condition of the yoke.....

irishman · « **Reply #14 on:** August 20, 2012, 03:58:22 PM »

I would love to build this barrel and could do a respectable job of it.....but, where would I find an 'Engraver' of that quality? Does anyone have any information?

Michael
The Home of the Golden Gun

cannonmn · « **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2012, 07:33:37 PM »

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I would love to build this barrel and could do a respectable job of it.....but, where would I find an 'Engraver' of that quality? Does anyone have any information?

Look under "Gunsmiths." Not all gunsmiths do engraving, but they all know someone who does it. Jewelers do engraving too, but mostly on much smaller objects.

steelcharge · « **Reply #16 on:** September 09, 2012, 02:07:18 AM »

I'm not sure if this is of any use but I came across one swivel gun in the Blackmores book "Armouries of the Tower of London, The ordnance":

Page 75, item 57 (museum number XIX.154):
Bronze swivel gun 1/2pdr, English mid 18th C.
..."The swivel retains U-shaped elevating bracket with chained adjusting pin."

Maybe you could contact the museum for photos and see if it is similar at all to the one in "John Bull", to help determine whether it had those springs or something else?

cannonmn · « **Reply #17 on:** September 09, 2012, 10:23:29 AM »

Thanks, sooner or later I will follow up on that, I'd like to see just what that one looks like. It is larger than mine, but maybe that bracket thing was a trend around that timeframe, who knows?

cannonmn · « **Reply #18 on:** March 06, 2013, 01:46:43 AM »

More info just received. I showed the cannon a local member of the Company of Military Historians, who became interersted and did some searching. He found this info. I'm not going to bid on the pair, I don't like the look of them, nor do I care for the attitude of the auction house when contacted them:

"David Lay Frics auction 7 March 2013, Penzance, England, item 59:
A good pair of late 18th century brass saluting cannons by Thomas Pyke of Bridgwater, Somerset. (See centre pages for full description)

Tapering multi-staged barrels with highly decorated astragals each ornamented with impressed semi-circles and dots. Similar decoration in the centre of the chase and around the swell of the muzzle. Also rings of decorative banding between the vent and first reinforce, around the chase and around the swell of the muzzle. Cascabel button slightly square in form with heavy moulding.
Engraved across the top of the cannon between the first and second reinforce ring: "MADE BY T. PYKE B'WATER"
Indistinct date engraving (heavily worn) of 178? between the vent and first
reinforce ring. Total length: 44cm, at widest point across trunions: 14.7cm.
Width of bore: 3cm.
In excellent condition, unpolished, with a dull brown bronze patination and some small instances of verdigris in places.

Thomas Pyke of Bridgwater (1740-1829) was a colourful individual. In addition to founding cannon, he was a brazier, bell founder, iron monger, clock & dial, chandelier and spinning jenny maker. There is a fine brass two-tier chandelier by Thomas Pyke of Bridgwater dated 1789 hanging in Exeter Guildhall. A staunch non-conformist, he played a leading role in the Unitarian church in Bridgwater. He was also actively involved in civic matters and was elected Mayor on two occasions. In 1791 he opened his own bank, which closed in 1813 prior to his bankruptcy in 1815. The accompanying newspaper advert is from the Sherborne & Yeovil Mercury, dated 8th January 1781 so it is evident he was very active in founding cannon at this time.

Provenance: From a Cornish country estate, originally owned by one of their decorated Naval ancestors. Remaining in the same family to the present day.

We would like to thank Nial and Deborah Woodford for kindly supplying us with biographical information regarding Thomas Pyke.

£1500-2500

cannonmn · « **Reply #19 on:** March 06, 2013, 03:49:31 AM »

Here's the link to that auction catalog. For whatever reason I can no longer see the photo of the cannons, I think a problem with my comptr. If someone else can see it, capture it and post here, I'm sure members would appreciate it. Item no. 59.
http://www.davidlay.co.uk/BidCat/Catalogues.asp?F1=3072&F2=4169&status=C&F4=1054&select=A052&offset=30

Double D · « **Reply #20 on:** March 06, 2013, 04:04:04 AM »

Ah don't be copying any pictures from that catalog and posting them here unless you have permission from the copyright holder.

cannonmn · « **Reply #21 on:** March 06, 2013, 04:19:10 AM »

How 'bout letting me know if you can see the pic of the cannons in item no. 59, then I'll know which end the problem is on.

Double D · « **Reply #22 on:** March 06, 2013, 04:29:58 AM »

I could not see the picture John. But it may be just my location.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #23 on:** March 06, 2013, 04:35:47 AM »

It's not your pc, the photo is gone.

GGaskill · « **Reply #24 on:** March 06, 2013, 10:28:06 AM »

I see no pictures associated with that item on their website.

steelcharge · « **Reply #25 on:** March 06, 2013, 08:40:47 PM »

I don't see it either, but on their home-page there is a small photo of the two Pyke cannons.

cannonmn · « **Reply #26 on:** March 07, 2013, 01:30:59 AM »

Thanks Steelie, was hoping I could download a pic for my files on Pyke, that one will work just fine.
For everyone else, here's a direct link to the page he mentions.
http://www.davidlay.co.uk/default.asp

Cannoneer · « **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2013, 04:14:39 AM »

One can only hope that Pyke's bells exhibited a little more graceful form, or at least sounded good.