Bad brass?

[Anonym]

A couple years ago I "inherited" some reloaded ammo from a friend of mine that didn't shoot that caliber anymore.  With the trouble I've been having out of it, I'm wondering how much of a friend he is!
 
I had already asked some questions on here regarding the powder, but to make a long story short, this buddy of mine loaded these back in 1994 when we were competitive shooting and doesn't remember any details about it.  It is .308WIN ammo loaded in FC brass with 168gr SMK bullets.  I thought he had loaded it hot since I was experiencing cracked necks and blowouts in most of the ammo I tried (didn't shoot much of it for obvious reasons!).
 
I managed to get a bullet puller and tried reducing the powder charge to try to find one that would work without scrapping the cases.  After cutting the powder charge in half and (from feel of recoil) reducing it to next to nothing, I was encouraged to scrap the powder and start fresh.  I've since loaded them back up with some fresh Reloader 15 with a 40grain, middle of the road charge, and am still getting neck splits and blowouts.
 
The ammo was "supposed" to be reloads in new, primed brass, which is what the factory label on the box indicated.  Is it possible that this is just bad brass that is too brittle to do much with, or maybe it's not new brass at all and I'm seeing the tail end of it's usable life with some major case head separation and overworked necks?
 
Now the question is, if this is indeed bad brass, do I pull the bullets and count all else as a loss, or load them up with a low charge and shoot them knowing that they will be going in the recycling bin after being shot?  Luckily my bolt rifle has a pressure release hole on the side to vent things away from my face, but I can't imagine it being the healthiest option on the table.  Just hard to think about scrapping that much brass, primers, and powder for the bullets...
 
Anonym

[stimpylu32]

By " Blow outs " are you talking at the neck or the base of the case ?
 
stimpy
 

[SHOOTALL]

 Have you tried annealing the cases ?

[stimpylu32]

The reason I asked about the blowouts , it sounds to me like your friend had a tight comp chamber ( with split necks and bullet choice ) and your rifle is on the outer limits of spec , he may have even sized them with a tight comp cut die .
 
stimpy

[Anonym]

Thanks for the replies.  More than likely these were for an M1 Garand/M14 National Match rifle, but would have doubled out of an M24 bolt action for long distance matches.  I'm shooting them in a Ruger M77 VT bolt action.  The blowouts are at the base of the cartridge, and although I haven't confirmed this, guess that they align with the vent hole on the right side of the chamber just ahead of the extractor when the bolt is seated.  For what it's worth with my novice visual inspection of the cases, it doesn't appear that the brass was full-length sized (no ring at the base), but I can see evidence of either a crimp or a neck sizer on the neck of the case.
 
I have not considered annealing due to the fact that the brass is primed (pulling loaded ammo).  If I can salvage any of it, I would consider this before reloading any of it for a second round.
 
Also thought I would mention that I have resized a few of the pieces that weren't destroyed from their original loading and they were extremely bulged with pushed primers.  Loading them down and with the R15 powder did not show these signs although I still had the failures 1/3 to 2/3 the time.
 
Anon

[stimpylu32]

Anon
 
I hate to say it , but at this point you may be furture ahead to pull the bullets , dump the powder , FL size the case's ( waste the primers ) and Anneal the brass . There's just too many issues going on at the same time to have an easy fix .
 
stimpy

[Land_Owner]

No need to waste the primer.  Pull the primer punch out of the sizing die first, then size away.  Primers saved.

After cutting the powder charge in half and (from feel of recoil) reducing it to next to nothing

That is very disturbing.  Powder charges are typically measured in tenths (0.10) of a grain, from a minimum (and Not Below) charge to a maximum (Not to Exceed) charge - to stay within the SAFE pressure regime for your barrel (and not blow yourself up).  A charge that is too small is potentially as dangerous as one that is too large. 

For .308 cal. x 168 grain bullets (probably similar for the SMK bullets), loads from http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp are listed below  [NOTE:  None of the minimum loads below is 1/2 or 50%, whichever is less, of the maximum load]:

Bullet Weight (Gr.)............Mfg Powder.............Bullet Dia..C.O.L......Grs....Vel. (ft/s).....Pressure......Grs......Vel. (ft/s).....Pressure
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     Hodgdon     CFE 223     .308"     2.800"     41.0     2444     39,600 PSI     45.0C     2664     49,800 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     Hodgdon     Varget     .308     2.800"     41.0     2514     46,100 PSI     45.0C     2737     60,000 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     IMR     IMR 4320     .308"     2.800"     42.0     2490     47,200 PSI     45.5C     2715     60,700 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     IMR     IMR 4064     .308"     2.800"     43.0     2539     47,400 PSI     45.0C     2743     58,900 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     Hodgdon     BL-C(2)     .308"     2.800"     43.0     2532     46,000 PSI     46.0     2697     55,000 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     IMR     IMR 4895     .308"     2.800"     41.0     2514     47,400 PSI     44.0C     2692     57,800 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     Hodgdon     H335     .308"     2.800"     39.0     2500     46,800 PSI     42.0     2661     56,100 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     Hodgdon     H4895     .308"     2.800"     39.0     2497     45,100 PSI     43.0C     2727     59,900 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     IMR     IMR 8208 XBR     .308"     2.800"     39.0     2505     46,500 PSI     43.0C     2724     60,700 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     IMR     IMR 3031     .308"     2.800"     38.0     2493     46,600 PSI     41.5C     2693     58,600 PSI          
168 GR. BAR TTSX BT     Hodgdon     Benchmark     .308"     2.800"     38.0     2458     44,500 PSI     42.0C     2686     59,500 PSI          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     IMR     IMR 4007 SSC     .308"     2.800"     43.2     2466     44,300 PSI     48.0C     2729     58,300 PSI          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     Hodgdon     CFE 223     .308"     2.800"     46.6     2662     48,200 PSI     49.0     2828     60,400 PSI          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     Hodgdon     Varget     .308"     2.800"     42.0     2520     41,200 CUP     46.0C     2731     50,600 CUP          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     IMR     IMR 4320     .308"     2.800"     41.5     2463     43,800 PSI     46.0     2733     59,300 PSI          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     IMR     IMR 4064     .308"     2.800"     41.5     2518     43,800 PSI     45.9C     2766     58,800 PSI          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     Hodgdon     BL-C(2)     .308"     2.800"     44.0     2569     39,400 CUP     47.0     2754     50,200 CUP          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     IMR     IMR 4895     .308"     2.800"     41.0     2447     39,700 PSI     45.4C     2758     58,000 PSI          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     Hodgdon     H335     .308"     2.800"     39.0     2451     37,700 CUP     42.0     2631     49,300 CUP          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     Hodgdon     H4895     .308"     2.800"     41.0     2551     38,300 CUP     43.5     2703     49,500 CUP          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     IMR     IMR 8208 XBR     .308"     2.800"     39.0     2493     49,000 PSI     43.3     2707     61,500 PSI          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     IMR     IMR 3031     .308"     2.800"     39.0     2507     43,900 PSI     42.0     2710     58,900 PSI          
168 GR. SIE HPBT     Hodgdon     Benchmark     .308"     2.800"     38.0     2416     38,100 CUP     42.0     2630     49,300 CUP

The absolute difference between min and max charges above range from 4.65% to 11.11%.  A charge reduction of 50% or more is not recommended and mercifully for you this time, allowed the rifle to continue undamaged, a consequence that can not be counted on to prevail.  Obviously, your results may vary, but it is your face, your hands, your eyes, your teeth, your mouth, your features, your brain, and your equipment that is just inches away from a pressure vessel (bomb) that could ruin your day (or life).

[Larry L]

We're all assuming here that you have zero issues with factory ammo or reloads that you have of a different brass. If that's correct, I'd suggest taking one round and pulling the bullet but not out all of the way, leaving it in the brass. Chamber the round having the bullet seated by the lands and grooves. Fire the round. If that round comes out without splitting, the brass is too short for your chamber. You can repeat the same thing to fireform the brass to your chamber. If the case still blows, take the gun to the nearest gunsmith and have them check headspace and out of spec chamber.

[cybin]

If it was me--I'd just pull the bullets and scrap the brass--why worry over it--if all other brass you have reloaded and factory brass works well--scrap them.
 
cybin

[Anonym]

Thanks again for all the input.
 
Stimpy, I have a few pieces that have been fired without failure.  Should I start there by annealing those pieces to see if they fail on a second loading, or just work with the stuff that I haven't shot yet?  What's the best way to waste primers?  Chamber the empty brass and fire, or is there a better way?
 
Landowner, I can pull the decapper from my FL resizer and see how the brass reacts to that, but if I need to anneal, primers will definitely be wasted as I'm not about to hold a torch against primed brass!  I agree on what you were saying regarding minimum and maximum charges, but was trying to work with what I had at the time.  Knowing the brass was rupturing, I started dropping the powder charges watching for the signs of overpressurizing to go away.  Initial charge was 42.3 grains, and I was unsure if this exceeded the max charge so I started systematically dropping the charge trying to see if I could get it down to a safe load.  I didn't see the case bulge and pushed primers go away until I had it down to about 34 grains, but I still had split necks and base blowouts, so I dropped it further trying to see when this would stop as well.  I had it down to 28 grains and still had the failures.  It was at that point that I quit and started looking into issues with the brass and not the powder.  Loading up a case with R15 and having the same issues confirmed to me that it was the brass, but also confirmed to me just how low I had dropped the powder charge with the unknown powder.  I was shooting a steel plate at 100 yards, so the ding confirmed the barrel was at least leaving the barrel.
 
Larry L, yes, the rifle has no problems shooting factory loaded ammunition or reloads with other brass.  Thanks for the tip on checking for brass being too short.  I'll take some measurements and also try seating the bullet with the rifling using the R15 powder since I know what the safe range is for that powder and go from there.
 
Anon

[Old Syko]

There's more to this story than we're being told.  If everything we're being told here is fact, you need to pull the bullets and scrap the rest.  Unless you have a death wish you don't continue to fire ammo that splits necks and as far as case head separation goes, they're just one to a customer.  Absolutely nobody can justify using an "unknown" powder.  Seriously, scrap this stuff before it's too late, get some factory ammo of the right flavor for the gun you're shooting and consider this a freeby.  A lot of folks don't get a second chance, much less a third, forth, and so on.

[Bigeasy]

There's more to this story than we're being told.  If everything we're being told here is fact, you need to pull the bullets and scrap the rest.  Unless you have a death wish you don't continue to fire ammo that splits necks and as far as case head separation goes, they're just one to a customer.  Absolutely nobody can justify using an "unknown" powder.  Seriously, scrap this stuff before it's too late, get some factory ammo of the right flavor for the gun you're shooting and consider this a freeby.  A lot of folks don't get a second chance, much less a third, forth, and so on.

100% agree.  An occasional split neck is one thing, blown cases in the case web area is very much another, and dangerous.  You risk serious damage to the gun, and yourself.  If I were to guess, I'd say they were reloaded more then once or twice.  A military spec chamber on a semi-auto, combined with full length re-sizing can quickly lead to thinning case webs, and the "blow outs" you are experiencing.  That "hole" in the side of your receiver ring is like an airbag on a car, there for an emergency, but not something you really ever want to have to depend on..
 
Me?, I'd pull the bullets and keep them, and trash everything else.  308 brass is not that hard to find that I would risk continuing to mess with proven defective cases.  Annealing the necks will do nothing to fix the case failures you are experiencing in the web area, and that is your most pressing problem with these loads.
 
Larry

[Anonym]

Agreed.  So what's the best way to discharge the primers in order to send the brass to a reclycler?

[SHOOTALL]

pull the bullet and dump powder then fire it.
If interested you migh cut a case or two that split and a few that did not and see if there is any places that look like they were being effected by bad powder .

[Anonym]

Cut one that blew out at the base tonight.  Didnt see anything odd other than the side that blew out was 0.04" thick while the opposite wall measured 0.05".  No visible ring of separation and no interior deterioration.  I will post a picture of it tomorrow...

[Anonym]

Okay, here are a couple pictures I took last night.  The first is a case that I cut with a dremmel tool right at the failure.  You can see a small dark area in the web of the case where the failure occured.  Measured with my calipers and that side of the case is 0.04" thick while the other side measured 0.05".  Other than it being thinner, there's no other indications of failure.  Inside of the case is a little dirty, but smooth and without signs of corrosion.
 
Second picture shows this again, plus another case that had neck failure.  This is typical of the neck failures I am getting.
 

[Land_Owner]

Landowner, I can pull the decapper from my FL resizer and see how the brass reacts to that, but if I need to anneal, primers will definitely be wasted as I'm not about to hold a torch against primed brass!  I agree on what you were saying regarding minimum and maximum charges, but was trying to work with what I had at the time.  Knowing the brass was rupturing, I started dropping the powder charges watching for the signs of overpressurizing to go away.  Initial charge was 42.3 grains, and I was unsure if this exceeded the max charge so I started systematically dropping the charge trying to see if I could get it down to a safe load.  I didn't see the case bulge and pushed primers go away until I had it down to about 34 grains, but I still had split necks and base blowouts, so I dropped it further trying to see when this would stop as well.  I had it down to 28 grains and still had the failures.  It was at that point that I quit and started looking into issues with the brass and not the powder.  Loading up a case with R15 and having the same issues confirmed to me that it was the brass, but also confirmed to me just how low I had dropped the powder charge with the unknown powder.  I was shooting a steel plate at 100 yards, so the ding confirmed the barrel was at least leaving the barrel.

Anon

Wow.  I would be concerned that those cases have been charged with a very fast powder and one that was not warranted for this caliber.  That is pure specualtion on my part and it is a testament to fortune that you did not experience an equipment or life safety "anomaly" before securing that series of tests.  Brass, range brass, pick up brass, "once fired" brass is available for about 1/4 the cost of new.  There are many postes on the GBO Classified Ad Forum for Reloading Equipment and Supplies (above) that would be interested in selling you their spares and pick ups.  Just post your desire to purchase and they will contact you.  Check out the other ads for current Market Pricing.  I buy a whole lot more cases than I need, load, or will shoot at one session.  They are for (mostly) those unintended days when I may have too little time to both shoot AND scrounge my own brass...there have been very-very few days like that however.  I like my brass... :-)