Author Topic: New Guy with questions (Read 1226 times)

robdh · « **on:** February 17, 2013, 07:29:09 PM »

Hi!
New guy with some questions. I'm experienced with handguns, but have very little with rifles, other than my military training 44 years ago (M-14 and M-16 + .45) and shooting my Remington model 60 at paper. I'm about to start hunting this year with a friend. We'll start with coyotes this spring (my partner tells me it will be good practice) and then deer in the fall. He also suggested that since my finances are meager I should look at the H & R single shots.

I'm interested in either a .243 or .25-06 as both would be flat shooters over the bean and young corn we'll have this spring looking for coyotes. Both appear to be good deer rounds, though my friend uses a .30-30 for deer.

My biggest concern would be the .25-06 might be too much for the bursitis in my shoulders. Shooting his Marlin .30-30 hurts a bit after some practice.

Any ideas or suggestions for the amateur?

~Rob~

twoshooter · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2013, 07:40:41 PM »

The only comment up front would be to try and find a laminate stock with a recoil pad as they are heavier, and that the 25-06 being a longer and heavier gun may actually kick less than a light 243, make sure to stay with the lighter bullet weights.

Dinny · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2013, 07:42:27 PM »

Try shooting a 7mm-08. The reloader has a multitude of bullet choices for mice to moose.

Thanks, Dinny

robdh · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2013, 07:54:32 PM »

Quote from: twoshooter on February 17, 2013, 07:40:41 PM

The only comment up front would be to try and find a laminate stock with a recoil pad as they are heavier, and that the 25-06 being a longer and heavier gun may actually kick less than a light 243, make sure to stay with the lighter bullet weights.

There's an Ultra model .25-06 with a 26" barrel and laminated stock which H&R says weighs 7 to 8 pounds. They also have a laminated thumb-stock model in .243 with a 24" bull barrel. Both look nice. The .25-06 is available on Davidson's website for around $357 out the door at my local FFL

robdh · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2013, 07:58:05 PM »

Quote from: -Dinny on February 17, 2013, 07:42:27 PM

Try shooting a 7mm-08. The reloader has a multitude of bullet choices for mice to moose.

Thanks, Dinny

I'm not a reloader Dinny. Ballistically, the 7mm-08 doesn't seem to shoot quite as flat as the .243 or .25.-6

petemi · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2013, 10:52:08 PM »

My Handi .243 is a Superlight on a wood laminated stock. It kicks a heck of a lot less than my Marlin 336T .30-30 with 170 gr. factory loads. Perhaps it's the straight stock on the Texan. The .243 groups inside 2.5 inches at 300 yards with 85 gr. Sierra Gamekings. I'd get the .243. It'll do whatever you need. I shoot 168 gr. Nosler boat tails in my Handi .30-30 at 2400+ fps, and to be honest, never noticed the recoil. I do have Handis such as the .45-70 that kick with a hot load.....and you feel it

As Dinny said, I wouldn't overlook the 7mm-08, or for that matter any of the .308 family. In addition to the .243, I have two 7mm-08s, two .308s and a .356. All of them shoot well at distance....including the .356 surprisingly. The seven and the .308 are 400 yard rifles. I've killed deer, crows, fox and coyotes out to 400 yards with the .308s, and the 7mm shoots even flatter.

Welcome and good luck. Keep us posted.

Pete

Dinny · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2013, 03:09:26 AM »

Quote from: robdh on February 17, 2013, 07:58:05 PM

I'm not a reloader Dinny. Ballistically, the 7mm-08 doesn't seem to shoot quite as flat as the .243 or .25.-6

There's plenty of suitable factory ammo out there too. You will have to look hard to find a lighter recoiling, flat shooting cartridge that has a wide range of applications in a Handi.

Thanks, Dinny

guzzijohn · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2013, 03:29:17 AM »

Just a heads up that the .243 is a finicky round in a Handi. I have never got mine to shoot well and others have posted problems with accuracy. On the positive side many have a good one with minimal tinkering. If I had to do it over again I would not by a new .243 but would shop for a used one that the owner claims that it shoots well as I think most Handi owners would be honest about that. Your mileage may vary. There are also a couple two or three nice bolt actions out there now for close to the same price point that are probably more likely to be very accurate out of the box.
GuzziJohn

hoytcanon · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2013, 03:54:28 AM »

Quote from: guzzijohn on February 18, 2013, 03:29:17 AM

Just a heads up that the .243 is a finicky round in a Handi. I have never got mine to shoot well and others have posted problems with accuracy. On the positive side many have a good one with minimal tinkering. If I had to do it over again I would not by a new .243 but would shop for a used one that the owner claims that it shoots well as I think most Handi owners would be honest about that. Your mileage may vary. There are also a couple two or three nice bolt actions out there now for close to the same price point that are probably more likely to be very accurate out of the box.
GuzziJohn

I have had six .243 Handi's and they all shot well... the two I have now are excellent with the loads we worked up; 58 grain V-Max, 85 grain Interbond and 90 grain Nosler BT...

twoshooter · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2013, 04:30:55 AM »

I love my handi's, but right now especially, you can probably pick up a 243 Savage or Stevens bolt at Wally World for $275. Also, 243 ammo is probably one of the 5 most common cartridges in America. If you go with the Handi, I would go ahead with the 25-06 you mentioned.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2013, 04:46:32 AM »

If your shoulder is feeling it from a 30-30 I would stay away from the 25-06 since it has similar recoil energy although if you get a rifle that's heavy enough it will negate the effects of that.

A .243 is a little bit less so if those are the choices I'd pick the .243. You'll want the rifle to be as heavy as possible so a heavy barrel with a big scope will be your friend.

What is the max range you'll be shooting at? If it's 150 yards or less then there are better choices for recoil sensitive shoulders. If you'll be shooting more than that then a .243 is probably your best choice.

tobster · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2013, 04:53:44 AM »

If you can handle the recoil the .270 would probably work as well and ammunition might be a little easier to come by than the 25-06. I like the .243 for coyotes but would prefer the.270 on deer.

guzzijohn · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2013, 05:43:11 AM »

Quote from hoytcanon:
" excellent with the loads we worked up; 58 grain V-Max"

I have tried the 58 gr. V-Max over H-4895. That is the worse performing combo I have tried, typically 8-10" groups at 100 yards and sometimes won't even hit an 8.5x11 paper. What powder are you using?
GuzziJohn

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2013, 05:52:18 AM »

Quote from: guzzijohn on February 18, 2013, 05:43:11 AM

Quote from hoytcanon:
" excellent with the loads we worked up; 58 grain V-Max"

I have tried the 58 gr. V-Max over H-4895. That is the worse performing combo I have tried, typically 8-10" groups at 100 yards and sometimes won't even hit an 8.5x11 paper. What powder are you using?
GuzziJohn

Give Varget a try, Mitchell got excellent accuracy with it under 55gr CT BSTs.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,79053.msg488984.html#msg488984

lrrice · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2013, 06:02:27 AM »

+1 on the 7mm 08 if your looking for versatility and low recoil. I love a 243 but it doesn't have the versatility of the 7 or the recoil of the 223. Deer is pretty much the upper limit of its usefulness (and many, not me, will argue that its too small) If your just hunting dogs, 223 will have good reach and is common and cheap when we're not having runs on ammo. It also has very low recoil. Don't know how well it works in the Handi. That said, 22-250 is IMHO the best yote gun out there.

guzzijohn · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2013, 10:29:35 AM »

Quote from Quickdtoo:
"Give Varget a try, Mitchell got excellent accuracy with it under 55gr CT BSTs."

Been thinking about trying Varget when I run out of the H4895. H4895 has been working very well in my .219DW and my various reloads I currently have in .243 (55gr, 70gr, and 95gr) all work under an inch in my Savage. For light bullets Spier 55gr work quite a bit better than the Hornday 58 grain for some reason. The 55s will at least group around three to four inches in the Handi.
Guzzijohn

petemi · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2013, 12:01:44 PM »

Quote from: guzzijohn on February 18, 2013, 10:29:35 AM

Quote from Quickdtoo:
"Give Varget a try, Mitchell got excellent accuracy with it under 55gr CT BSTs."

Been thinking about trying Varget when I run out of the H4895. H4895 has been working very well in my .219DW and my various reloads I currently have in .243 (55gr, 70gr, and 95gr) all work under an inch in my Savage. For light bullets Spier 55gr work quite a bit better than the Hornday 58 grain for some reason. The 55s will at least group around three to four inches in the Handi.
Guzzijohn

Guzzijohn, give the .243s a try with 85 gr. Sierra Gamekings over Varget. You may well be surprised.

Pete

hoytcanon · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2013, 02:36:37 PM »

Quote from: guzzijohn on February 18, 2013, 05:43:11 AM

Quote from hoytcanon:
" excellent with the loads we worked up; 58 grain V-Max"

I have tried the 58 gr. V-Max over H-4895. That is the worse performing combo I have tried, typically 8-10" groups at 100 yards and sometimes won't even hit an 8.5x11 paper. What powder are you using?
GuzziJohn

44.2 grains of Varget over 58 VM's... but only slightly worse was 43.0 grains of H-4895... Have just started working with CFE-223 in .243, initial testing looks very good, but have not settled on a load yet... it is fantastic in .223 and .308 (working up loads for 7mm-08 with it also).
8-10" groups??? Something else is going on... the worse groups we got with any load did 3 MOA... the best loads were under MOA... I would check your mounts, pull them off, clean the threads and replace with blue loc-tite... reinstall rings and ensure that they are locked down firmly... 8-10" is horrible, and so much so, that I don't think it is attributable to the load alone.... what optic are you using?

P.S - all of our .243's have been very long in the throat... our groups were cut in half when we started seating the bullets out for a shorter jump.

terryrudd · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2013, 03:44:39 AM »

I'll second the long throats in 243s.

With 95gr Berger VLDs, I'm only seeing about .160" of bearing surface in the neck when they are touching the lands. Those Bergers are veeery long bullets too.

Thanks,
Terry

guzzijohn · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2013, 04:04:28 AM »

Quote from hoytcanon:
"8-10" groups??? Something else is going on... the worse groups we got with any load did 3 MOA... the best loads were under MOA... I would check your mounts, pull them off, clean the threads and replace with blue loc-tite... reinstall rings and ensure that they are locked down firmly... 8-10" is horrible, and so much so, that I don't think it is attributable to the load alone.... what optic are you using? "

Long ago I should have sent the rifle into H&R for them to check it out. I have the 22" BBL. Rifling looks good, crown looks good, it has a nice trigger from the factory, two different scopes, mounts and rings, groups were consistently poor with either and either produces sub one inch groups when mounted on my Savage, dry latch, closes up tight, o-ring, forestock on or off, no difference, put bag in front of trigger guard, tried different seating depths. It seems to like either 55gr or 95 grain bullets the best which will group 3-4 inches. Most everything else groups at least six inches and 8+ is not uncommon. I broke in the barrel according to common practices. Of factory loads it likes the Winchester 55gr Supremes and Federal Fusion 95 gr. the best also grouping around 3-4". Just seems strange to me.
GuzziJohn

robdh · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2013, 11:32:06 AM »

Quote from: Doublebass73 on February 18, 2013, 04:46:32 AM

If your shoulder is feeling it from a 30-30 I would stay away from the 25-06 since it has similar recoil energy although if you get a rifle that's heavy enough it will negate the effects of that.

A .243 is a little bit less so if those are the choices I'd pick the .243. You'll want the rifle to be as heavy as possible so a heavy barrel with a big scope will be your friend.

What is the max range you'll be shooting at? If it's 150 yards or less then there are better choices for recoil sensitive shoulders. If you'll be shooting more than that then a .243 is probably your best choice.

After shooting for an hour or so, I definitely feel the 30-30. Yesterday a friend's friend let me fire a few rounds from his Thompson/Center Venture bolt action .243. He has a Weaver K4 4x38 mounted on it and said it weighed about 7.5 - 8 lbs loaded.

I fired a 5 round group of just under 2" at 100 yards using Privi Partizan (never heard of them before--friend said they're from Serbia) 90 gr. soft points.

The recoil was pretty soft and I thought the group was pretty good for me. The owner shot 3 groups that averaged around 1.5" and said the rifle really liked Hornady Superformance SST 95 Gr. He averages just under an inch with them, but they cost twice as much as the PPs so he only uses them when he's hunting.

I really like the look, feel and performance of the Venture, only draw back is that the Venture and a good scope would set me back around $600+! Oh well, keep on looking, asking questions and saving my pennies.

Robbie

cudatruck · « **Reply #21 on:** February 21, 2013, 02:49:46 PM »

There are several good , really good, shooting rifles on the market for less than 400. I bought a marlin xs7 in 7mm-08 for 329.00. spent more on the scope. A handi rifle new is gonna run about the same so it comes down to do you want a single shot or a bolt gun? I bought the handi to get calibers i can not afford in other guns. .45-70 and .357 are available but in 600 to 800 dollar guns. in the handi im only in for 300.In a common caliber the handi is not cheaper anymore. in the .243 or 7mm-08 the bolt guns cost the same as the handi, sometimes even less! Our nine year old girl shoots both the .357 Max handi and the 7mm-08 marlin. the 7mm with reduced loads of trailboss. so recoil should not be a problem with either one. Good luck, Mike.

robdh · « **Reply #22 on:** February 21, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and suggestions. I'm still looking... I like the Handi rifles, but there are definitely lots of inexpensive bolt actions that I was not initially aware of. Lots of food for thought. Glad I'm on board here.

Robbie

gcrank1 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:17:54 AM »

Robbie,
I have some old injuries that made me recoil sensitive for a long time, and still trouble me some from time to time. Factory loads in anything past 223, even 243 were too much early on. Ive healed a bunch, though will always suffer some effects, but handloading allows me to make about any caliber comfy to shoot now, even 45-70. A good recoil pad stock, or a PAST pad can make a big difference, and the PAST pad that you wear can be used for shooting any longgun.

robdh · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2013, 07:04:59 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on February 22, 2013, 04:17:54 AM

Robbie,
I have some old injuries that made me recoil sensitive for a long time, and still trouble me some from time to time. Factory loads in anything past 223, even 243 were too much early on. Ive healed a bunch, though will always suffer some effects, but handloading allows me to make about any caliber comfy to shoot now, even 45-70. A good recoil pad stock, or a PAST pad can make a big difference, and the PAST pad that you wear can be used for shooting any longgun.

The PAST pad definitely looks like something I need to check out. Thanks very much for the info.

~Robbie~

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** February 22, 2013, 08:03:25 AM »

My PAST Magnum pad has saved the day more than a couple times, last time was shooting the 570gr solids @ 2100+fps from 50-140 from the leadsled, the PAST allowed me to finish the load work.

Tim

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/71016