Where's the proof?

[reliquary]

Heck, I don't take it personally.  I just like to skewer those who make ridiculous statements. 

[SharonAnne]

I had to go back and take MIV off ignore to find out what the ruckus was about.

You do not have to be 50 yds away to catch the sight of a bullet in flight. I have caught the trail of a .45acp in flight from only 7 yards.

After shooting 35k rounds in a year and ROing 15 shooters every Thursday night for 18 years, I have seen .45acp bullets in flight. The first time was on an outdoor range on a sunny day. The bullets were JHP with a shiny base. The sun glissened off the base of the bullet. Many of us that day saw bullets in flight.

I got to where I could pick up the trail of even a .38 Super in flight. Not always, but often.

You have to shoot many thousands of rounds a year and also see many other shooters firing many thousands of rounds a year.  Actually everyone sees the bullets in flight. It is comprehending what you are seeing that is the trick.

When I first started in USPSA/IPSC competition I heard about the "Double-Tap", supposedly two shots as fast as you can with one sight picture. Then I read about top shooters claiming to get two sight pictures. After many thousands of rounds of practice I found I too was seeing a sight picture for the second shot. This was with 0.15 seconds between shots as recorded on Pact and Competition Electronics timers. Many doubted me but there it was.

I am way out of practice and also seeing others shoot. I am sure if I got back to my habits of the year 2000 I could pick it up rather quickly. Back then I shot 3 matches a week plus 400-1000 practice rounds a week depending on the time of year and temperature.

It can be done. You just have to train your brain to understand what it is seeing.

[Mike in Virginia]

Okay, please put me back on ignore now.  Thanks. 

[mcwoodduck]

Mike,
 the 45 was a devolopement based on the use of the 38 colt on the morros in the Philipenes.  The 45 colt rounds that some still had as side arms worked better than the 38's being issued.  When the Army looked for a new pistol the 45 ACP was produced ot come close to the 45 Colt revolver rounds, but like we see, all semi auto versions of the revolver are close but not exact and never exceed the revolver counter part.
If you look at a handgun they kill differently than does a rifle.  Speed nad velocity work for the rifle where as the pistol uses blood loose. 
There are three ways to kill / stop an attack.
1 Massive blood pressure loss- hitting a blood berring organ or vessile and lowering the blood pressure rapidly
2 Gross blood loss, lack of blood shuts down the system.
3 central nervous system rupture. 
Why the 45 has been considered so good is, it is a large heavy slug that travels on a strain path and plows through
A personal protection round you want penetration but not over penetration.  The larger the width of the bullet the more chances it has to hit a blood vessile, break bone, or sever a nerve.   
When you look at the 9mm, the 40 and the 45 are all very similar.  The 9mm is faster but the bullet is lighter, the 40 is the happy medium of weight and speed and the 45 is big and slow. 
What is different about the 380 is that it is a scaled model of the 45 ACP round.  John Browning was famous for scalling up and down to make what he wanted.
50 BMG is a scaled up version of 30-06.  The  308 bullet was taken as a ratio to the 510 of the 50 BMG and hten all dimentions were done all around  the 380 is a 9mm bullet and the dimentions are all the same ratio as the 45 ACP.  Saying one is better than the other is difficult   More mass smae speed the 45 wins.  Until you can not hit what you are aiming at.  the larger recoil of the 45 and not hitting a target does not matter.  The guys saying they can hit with a 380 where they cna not hit with a small 45 has some merit as hits are what are going to make the difference.

[Mike in Virginia]

woodduck, I know.  The 1911 forum seemed kind of dead lately and I dearly love to hear about the benefits of the acp cartridge.  It's my favorite.  Thanks for you input. 

[mcwoodduck]

Street stoppers and the Straussbourg tests are about the best ways to rate a caliber and bullet.
Street stoppers rates the bullets based on every shooting with that bullet design as a single hit to the upper torso.
What suprised me was the 45 ACP with ball ammo was a 64 or 65% one shot stop and 9mm Ball was one percent below it. The real suprise was the Winchester Silver tip in 32 ACP that was one percent below 9mm Ball. 
The one story that really stuck with me about street stoppers was two guys in a boarding house get in a fight and were seperated. the one said I'm going to get my gun, the other guy said me too, they walked up the stairs side by side and came out of their rooms at the sme time.  Guy A had a Jennings 22 pocket auto loaded with stingers, guy B had a Colt gold cup loaded with ball.  Guy B laughs at Guy A and shoots him 7 times with the ball,  Guy A returns fire with a single shot to the chest,  Guy B falls dead with a stinger severing his aorta and guy A takes two busses to the hospital and lived.  This story tells me 1 thing.  Shot placement matters more then caliber. 
I wonder if the two had the same budget for their guns and Guy A went with the cheap gun and a pile of ammo to get good with it and guy B went with the expensive pistol and a single box of ammo with the last 7 rounds staying in his gun. 
Thus asking the question is it better to have the larger hole maker and fewer rounds for the budget or more ammo of the smaller 9mm .   Does practice matter?  Back when I was starting to shoot  a box of 9mm was $7.50 and a box of 45 Was 10.00 the guns were similar.  At the time My choices were a Sig or a Colt 1911 and I chose the Sig over a 1911 for a lot of reasons.  And then went with a 9mm over 45 for two reasons.  One the price of ammo allowing me on a college kid budget to shoot more and being able to carry dowble the ammo of the 1911 was a plus. 
The sig was the choice for two reasons.  A used sig was about $500 and a new colt was about the same price but the colt had to be tuned to shoot a single round (either ball, target, or hollowpoints) where the sig was designed to shoot a stagered mag of any of them.
I like the lego ability of the 1911 and being able to modify the frame to your tastes, the lack of those after market products for the Sig tells me that it is well made and people do not see the need to upgrade factory parts to make the gun work or work better.  Telling me it is about as good as it is going to get right from the factory. 
Later I added a 45 ACP in a Sig and with all the different guns I have owned I have never owned a 1911.
The new batch of 1911's that have appered since the late 90's such as the Kimber, the Sigs, the Can not think about it right now but they are reliable with a staggered mag of anything available in the caliber. 
I used to get greif for shooting the Sig P226 and friends would ask when I was going ot buy a 1911, my old answer was when Sig made them  and about 4 years later they started making them.
 making me have ot change my answer to Why would I want one? 
Maybe that will fire up this question. 

[mcwoodduck]

Oh if you want to drive a PETA member to tears talk about the Strausbourg test .
In Stausbourg France they wanted to test bullet designs and effictiveness and they carted out a bunch of pistols, boxes of ammo and 5 goats for each bullet design and caliber.  They would shoot the goats and time how long it takes for the goat to die.  After 3 to 5 seconds the goat got a second round to the head.  The times were averaged to pick a best round. 

[SharonAnne]

PETA, people eating tasty animals.

[SHOOTALL]

is there a rule where you can only shoot once ? Since no round is a 100% one shot stopper why worry about it ? If it's worth shooting once it's worth shooting several times or 12.

[JustaShooter]

is there a rule where you can only shoot once ? Since no round is a 100% one shot stopper why worry about it ? If it's worth shooting once it's worth shooting several times or 12.

I've been taught to keep shooting till the threat is stopped.  If that means 2 (I'm not doing anything less than a double-tap in any case if I need to stop a threat) or 20, I plan to shoot & reload till the job is done.

[mcwoodduck]

is there a rule where you can only shoot once ? Since no round is a 100% one shot stopper why worry about it ? If it's worth shooting once it's worth shooting several times or 12.

No but if you have a choice between a 60% and an 85% what bullet would you pick?   As long as it functions the gun.
And yes I have been saying that if the bullet is 75% and I make two chest hits do I have a 150% chance it will stop him?

[SharonAnne]

sorry, no 150%.  I would prefer to use something rated 85% or higher and shoot until the threat is gone. That is why I practice reloading, even if it holds 15 or 25.

[mcwoodduck]

Sharon,
I understand Math.  and three rounds of 85% still only gives you an 85% chance to stop the problem. 
It took me three times to get through Statistics at college because I had a problem with understanding that 10 flips of a coin that lands heads in a row strill only have a 50-50 chance of landing heads again.

[SharonAnne]

mcd. I understand that 3x85% is still 85%. I just prefer to use the highest percentage I can and keep making noise (on target) until the threat is gone.

I know the .357 with 1450fps 125gr jhp is the highest percentage one stop shot but mine only holds 7 and I prefer the 15 I can get in my Para 14-45. If I wanted the 125gr jhp at 1450fps I would use my 9x23 loaded with Winchester Silvertips. It holds 27.

[mcwoodduck]

I agree there are some needed trade offs.
If you can not handle the recoil of the 90%.
If you are using it as a house gun and are pretty sure that the use will be at night the idea of a huge flash to drive the bullet really fast may not be a good one. 
And being able to put three rounds of 70% on target is a lot better than missing with a 99% round due to recoil or not being able ot see after the first round. 
After all a 44 Mag round is going to have a huge one shot stop percentage, but many can not handle the recoil and then you have over penetration, and finally the HUGE flash.   
The size and weight of the gun need ot be taken into account.  The amount of ammo as well.  and 15 rounds of 9mm may be a better choice. 

[SHOOTALL]

is there a rule where you can only shoot once ? Since no round is a 100% one shot stopper why worry about it ? If it's worth shooting once it's worth shooting several times or 12.

No but if you have a choice between a 60% and an 85% what bullet would you pick?   As long as it functions the gun.
And yes I have been saying that if the bullet is 75% and I make two chest hits do I have a 150% chance it will stop him?

I understand your point and agree ( tote a 357 mag.) but even that will most likely require more than one shot to stop an attacker. A 22 in an eye socket will be more effective than a 45 in an arm in most cases.

[SharonAnne]

muzzle flash in a dark room is actually an advantage. The flash illuminates the bad guy and the front sight. This I know from shooting on an indoor range at night. We experimented with shooting in the dark, with flashlights, back lit, front lit and various levels of dim lighting.

If you have nothing else, muzzle flash can be helpful. Remember, the muzzle flash is brighter for the one in front of the gun.

[1911crazy]

The morro's would tie sticks to there legs and keep on conning the was why the 45acp round was developed to knock them down.


The 9mm luger/parabellium isn't a stopper like the 45acp is. We're finding it out in the sand box right now. its more humane and doesn't kill the bad guy fast enough because they stay fighting. The is why the 1911/45acp is being reissued.  Guess the powers to be chose the fire power of the 9mm(larger mag) over the 7rd 1911.


I don't have a dog in this fight my gun of choice the 41mag revolver. If I sit them down there not getting back up.


I've seen my 338WM pick bears up three or four feet in the air and slam them down dead. I prefer one shot one kill.

[JustaShooter]

I've seen my 338WM pick bears up three or four feet in the air and slam them down dead. I prefer one shot one kill.

I call shenanigans. Simple physics says that you would be similarly knocked backward "three or four feet in the air" - actually, even farther than the bear, since you (likely) weigh less than the bear.

Too many Hollywood movies, I think.

[SharonAnne]

i have seen a picture of an American soldier, either WWII or Korea. He was standing when shot. In the photo he was about 2 feet off the ground. If the bullet hits exactly the right spot ( I do not know what that spot is) it can cause the muscles to contract violently thus causing, in this photo, the one hit to appear to 'jump' or be thrown several feet into the air.

It is basic physics, if the rifle fired does not knock you down or throw you into the air it cannot do that to the target animal/person. The aforementioned situation can in very rare circumstances make it appear that the bullet impact has done so but it is not reality.

[mcwoodduck]

Physics say they are not blown up or back by the projectile. 
I am not doubting that he has seen the bears go up and then down.  Not sure if he can see it happen if he is shooting a 338 WM as I think the recoil of the rifle and the lack of focus will be about the same time the bear is in the air. I shoot 2L bottles with mine and have never seen a bottle hit or fly, I have seen them in the air with the 338WM, but the heavy 223 I can watch the whole thing.  the Bottle being hit the, hydrolic effect and the after math of the transfer of energy.  Unless the 338 WM is about 20 to 25 pounds I doubt that he is actuall seeing the bear jump. 
What I htink happens is that at being shot the bears Jump.  I have seen deer do it and even small game like rabbits being hit by a 22. There is no way a 22LR will move a Rabbit a couple feet into the air it is their nervous system reacting to the hit and trying to escape that tenses their muscles and makes it look like they animal is lifted off the ground by the bullet.   Just an involuntary muscle reaction and not physics or power of the bullet that moves the animals.   
 

[SharonAnne]

I think I read that somewhere! 

[reliquary]

Sharonanne: this is a famous photo of a soldier in the Spanish Civil War.  http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/news/shot-down--capas-classic-image-of-war-1754405.html  Could that be it?  There is some discussion as to whether this photo was staged or real.
 
Our concept of "folks being shot" is influenced by the histrionics and dances that we see in the special effects in movies.  Wartime documentaries show that most folks, when fatally hit, just "drop".  Everyone has seen the movie of the Normandy landings that shows a guy getting sprayed with MG fire as he gets to the shore; other combat documentaries show the same basic thing...they just fall. 
 
If one watches the hunting shows, slow-mo shots of deer getting hit portray them "hunching up" and jumping...even when hit with an arrow.  It's reflex, not the physics of the projectile.  If the projectile penetrates, as most do, the potential energy is carried with it, not deposited into the object it penetrated.

[SHOOTALL]

In most cases it's not the bullet that lifts or moves someone it's their muscles reacting to the hit.

[SharonAnne]

reliquary, sorry, no. The picture I am thinking of is of a US soldier wearing the typical steel helmet first worn in WWII. He was carrying an M1 rifle so I am pretty sure it was WWII or Korea. He was upright and about 2 feet off the ground. Wish I knew where to find it.

[mcwoodduck]

reliquary, sorry, no. The picture I am thinking of is of a US soldier wearing the typical steel helmet first worn in WWII. He was carrying an M1 rifle so I am pretty sure it was WWII or Korea. He was upright and about 2 feet off the ground. Wish I knew where to find it.

Has to be in the Pacific or possibly North Africa.  But I think the North African Campaign had the two peice helmets issued.