Pix of a Microgroove 45-70 Barrel?

[flmason]

Hi All,
    Anyone have pix of a Handi with microgroove in 45-70 and/or Ballard rifling?

I seem to recall when I called H&R 1871 they said all the currrent one's were Ballard... finally got to the LGS to fill out the paperwork on the one I just ordered... the rifling seemed very shallow to my eyes. Maybe it's just the size of the bore makes it look that way though.

Anyway, microgroove in the old Marlin .22's was very easy to spot. With this gun I'm not sure if it's Micro... or just very shallow Ballard?

[tacklebury]

Might read this.  It's a pretty good guide on the micro groove and determining what you have.
 
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/microgrove-barrels.htm

[quickdtoo]

Hi All,
    Anyone have pix of a Handi with microgroove in 45-70 and/or Ballard rifling?

I seem to recall when I called H&R 1871 they said all the currrent one's were Ballard... finally got to the LGS to fill out the paperwork on the one I just ordered... the rifling seemed very shallow to my eyes. Maybe it's just the size of the bore makes it look that way though.

Anyway, microgroove in the old Marlin .22's was very easy to spot. With this gun I'm not sure if it's Micro... or just very shallow Ballard?

Marlins are ballard, I wouldn't rely on what a CS rep said, I think they get confused by the different product lines they cover(Rem Marlin & H&R), some years H&R have had MG, but I've never seen or heard of a ballard 45-70 Handi here, although the old Shikari might be ballard, they've been reported to have deep rifling and work very well for cast bullets, lots of discussion on the MG barrels here tho including one you posted before.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,253470.msg1099486648.html#msg1099486648

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,206287.msg1099083017.html#msg1099083017

[flmason]

Hi All,
    Anyone have pix of a Handi with microgroove in 45-70 and/or Ballard rifling?

I seem to recall when I called H&R 1871 they said all the currrent one's were Ballard... finally got to the LGS to fill out the paperwork on the one I just ordered... the rifling seemed very shallow to my eyes. Maybe it's just the size of the bore makes it look that way though.

Anyway, microgroove in the old Marlin .22's was very easy to spot. With this gun I'm not sure if it's Micro... or just very shallow Ballard?

Marlins are ballard, I wouldn't rely on what a CS rep said, I think they get confused by the different product lines they cover(Rem Marlin & H&R), some years H&R have had MG, but I've never seen or heard of a ballard 45-70 Handi here, although the old Shikari might be ballard, they've been reported to have deep rifling and work very well for cast bullets, lots of discussion on the MG barrels here tho including one you posted before.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,253470.msg1099486648.html#msg1099486648

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,206287.msg1099083017.html#msg1099083017

I'd say it looks like that pic in the earlier post. So chalk it up to another mis-informed rep. Was hoping I was wrong and that ballard just doesn't look as deep in a bigger bore.

My main beef with it is that it just looks very weakly rifled, as in already shot out... fragile even.

Well, for better or worse, I finally got around to getting one... will have to see how she does.

[quickdtoo]

I have six H&R 45-70s, they all shoot very well, it and the 30-30 are prolly the most popular of all centerfire H&R rifle chamberings, both have had MG rifling at one time or another.  If shooting cast, be sure to use bullets bigger than the bore, as stated in the Freyxell article. 

Tim

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm

[flmason]

I have six H&R 45-70s, they all shoot very well, it and the 30-30 are prolly the most popular of all centerfire H&R rifle chamberings, both have had MG rifling at one time or another.  If shooting cast, be sure to use bullets bigger than the bore, as stated in the Freyxell article. 

Tim

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm

Pretty much planning on the Lee 405 HB mold to start and then the 459-500-3R.  Hopefully they'll be shootable as cast. Trying to keep things simple.

As long as the rifling imparts the needed spin, all's good. My thoughts were that standard Ballard was the better choice for cast.

To be honest, I'm still not sure if it's MG or not. Will have to wait until I get it home... waiting period in this state. MG that I'd seen in the past always looked a little "pointy" whereas this just looked like very shallow Ballard, but not sure. Could be an optical illusion of the larger bore perhaps vrs. the 30 cal. rifles I've got on hand.

It did not look like this, for example:

https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/Steelbanger/microgroove.jpg

Nor this..

http://s349.beta.photobucket.com/user/StockersPics/media/L07D027-4.jpg.html

It just didn't have so many lands that I could say, "Yep, definitely MG..."

I'll have to wait and have another look.

[gcrank1]

My understanding is that only the 38-55 TM had 'Ballard Rifling', though the determination of that may be loosely interpreted to any relatively wide & deepish rifling.
If you have reservations abut MG and cast bullets, may I refer you to The Cast Bullet Assoc. where a number of people have been successfully doing so for years.
FWIW, regardless of rifling, bullet fit to the all critical throat is of utmost importance, moreso than the groove dia. of the barrel.

[quickdtoo]

To be honest, I'm still not sure if it's MG or not. Will have to wait until I get it home... waiting period in this state. MG that I'd seen in the past always looked a little "pointy" whereas this just looked like very shallow Ballard, but not sure. Could be an optical illusion of the larger bore perhaps vrs. the 30 cal. rifles I've got on hand.

It did not look like this, for example:

https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/Steelbanger/microgroove.jpg

Nor this..

http://s349.beta.photobucket.com/user/StockersPics/media/L07D027-4.jpg.html

It just didn't have so many lands that I could say, "Yep, definitely MG..."

I'll have to wait and have another look.

Read the article by Fryxell I posted...


http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm

 

In 1972, Marlin introduced the Model 1895 chambered in .45-70. Initially, these rifles were made with 8-groove Microgroove barrels, with grooves that were .060" wide and .003" deep. The next year this was changed to a 12-groove barrel, with the other specs remaining the same. Again, groove diameter is spec-ed out at .4587", so oversized cast bullets are called for in these guns. All of these .45-70 Microgroove barrels had a 1 in 20-" twist.

[flmason]

My understanding is that only the 38-55 TM had 'Ballard Rifling', though the determination of that may be loosely interpreted to any relatively wide & deepish rifling.
If you have reservations abut MG and cast bullets, may I refer you to The Cast Bullet Assoc. where a number of people have been successfully doing so for years.
FWIW, regardless of rifling, bullet fit to the all critical throat is of utmost importance, moreso than the groove dia. of the barrel.

I'm not worried about it being possible to craft loads for it. As you point out folks make it work. Though I wonder at how much additional effort?

What really crossed my mind is... is the lands look so shallow that I'm thinking it would take much leading, nor much corrosion to have a less than good situation.

Makes me wonder if paper patching would tend to round off the lands rather quickly as well.

As ridiculous as this is going to sound, I sent may a lead .22 down range with a cheap little Jennings J-22 that was MG. It was crazy accurate, and a basic piece of cheap metal junk. So no worries about it being able to work. Just wondering what the downsides are. What I'm seeing makes me think... "That looks a little fragile"... relatively speaking of course. It is steel after all.

That said, how many bazillions of Marlins were microgrooved... plenty. So it works. So did polygonal rifling and even elliptical boring. So's as long as it imparts the spin and the bullet stays balanced, it should work.  Will just have to be sure I stay the usual .001 - .002 above groove size.

I dunno, just expected to see more substantial rifling in there.

About the Fryxell article... this statement is what worries me, because the whole point of buying this gun was to go with PB Cast, soft lead bullets. I.e. easiest to make bullets:

" Other examples can be found in the .30-30, .32 Special, .444 Marlin, etc., but you get the point. Microgroove rifles can shoot cast bullets just fine -- just keep them oversized, GC-ed and hard enough."

About I don't want to fuss with gas checks, alloys, etc. I wanted a forgiving rifle that would digest a wide range of loads without a lot of tuning. Otherwise there's no advantage to me... if it needs a lot of tuning, might as well tune a .30 GC bullet for a milsurp and have flatter trajectory and a repeater.

If it needs GC, Paper Patch, or Jacketed or some especially hard alloy... it's completely counter to the whole tree I was barking up. LOL!

[gcrank1]

If you match the bullet dia. to the fully fire-formed case mouth (avoid FL resizing) to still be able to chamber up and extract/eject the bullet dia. most likely will be at or above groove dia. but will avoid the gas base cutting the bullet and channeling up the sides as it starts going downbore (which is what causes the leading regardless of alloy).
The rifling not been a particular problem with the H&R 45-70's, usually they are one of the easiest and most user friendly calibers to get shooting well with cast or jacketed. BTW, I dont know how well the MG would take to paper patched, but I have no reason to even try it as GG (Grease Groove) bullets have worked so well for me.

[flmason]

I have six H&R 45-70s, they all shoot very well, it and the 30-30 are prolly the most popular of all centerfire H&R rifle chamberings, both have had MG rifling at one time or another.  If shooting cast, be sure to use bullets bigger than the bore, as stated in the Freyxell article. 

Tim

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm

Good article. But it points out that MG barrels have requirements that seem to contradict my whole point in going for a 45-70. Which was simplest bullet cast, no need for high velocities to get the job done, so no jacketed, paper patched or gas checked bullets, and ideally no sizing or bumping up routines.

Consider how this statement contradicts that goal:

Other examples can be found in the .30-30, .32 Special, .444 Marlin, etc., but you get the point. Microgroove rifles can shoot cast bullets just fine -- just keep them oversized, GC-ed and hard enough.

And this one:

Because of the specifications adopted by Marlin, Microgroove barrels tend to have oversized groove diameters, and as a result, Microgroove barrels early on earned a reputation for not shooting cast bullets well. In fact, when loaded with bullets that are the appropriate size for the barrel (and cast to a suitable hardness and wearing a GC), these guns are capable of fine accuracy with cast bullets. Some of my favorite cast bullet rifles wear Microgroove barrels.

That's all the fussing around that I was hoping to avoid that .30 cal rifles require to get to the velocities needed to get the performance associated with them. Well, and or buying some Corbin Equipment and making your own jacketed.

The whole idea was to be just one step above black powder really.

Kinda P.O.'s at Marlin and or the rep on their phone line that said, "All the 45-70s are Ballard these days." Assuming this barrel really is MG. Have to wait out the state waiting period to get it home and have another look.

I'm just gonna hope that it shoots. At the very least it's got to be better than a smooth bore slug gun, LOL!

[gcrank1]

I too have adopted the KISS principle and dont use gas checks, preferring PB homecast bullets of softish lead to 'Garagalloy' (primarily WWt's, range scrounge lead and a dash of Tin) and have been making sub-sonic on up to 1400-1450ish fps loads of such for some years. It sounds like you intend to do as many of us have been doing so give it an unbiased go, being sure to stick to the 'fit fundamentals' and see what you get. The most common mistake Ive seen made is trying to use too small a bullet by guys who think the cast bullet needs to be the same size as a jacketed for whatever caliber.

[quickdtoo]

Gas checked hard cast might be required for typical hunting loads, but for trapdoor velocities just making sure the bullet diameter is big enough should work fine, I have no problems chambering .460" cast in Starline brass in any of mine. 

Tim

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm

[flmason]

I too have adopted the KISS principle and dont use gas checks, preferring PB homecast bullets of softish lead to 'Garagalloy' (primarily WWt's, range scrounge lead and a dash of Tin) and have been making sub-sonic on up to 1400-1450ish fps loads of such for some years. It sounds like you intend to do as many of us have been doing so give it an unbiased go, being sure to stick to the 'fit fundamentals' and see what you get. The most common mistake Ive seen made is trying to use too small a bullet by guys who think the cast bullet needs to be the same size as a jacketed for whatever caliber.

Sounds like exactly where I want to be. soft cast, 1400-ish, PB (actually HB is the first mold I have in mind). If that works, I'll be a happy camper.

I will say this after wanting one of these for quite a while. It's got to be about the best pointing rifle I've ever picked up. Fits great... sights line up with no fuss, etc. Don't care for the rubber recoil pad... would prefer a solid arrangement like the shotguns. Other than that. it's a neat little rifle.

Guess I have it ingrained to like this sort of thing, since my first rifle was a Steven 26 Crackshot. If she shoots well, couldn't be happier about it.

[flmason]

Gas checked hard cast might be required for typical hunting loads, but for trapdoor velocities just making sure the bullet diameter is big enough should work fine, I have no problems chambering .460" cast in Starline brass in any of mine. 

Tim

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm

That's an interesting article.

To be honest, seems to me, long as you keep within a decent range, that trapdoor loads are hunting loads. The numbers don't seem any worse that a 20 or 12 gauge slug for the most part.

I can see why they could be addictive little guns. LOL! They really are named right.