Cannons from Belle Isle, Detroit

[DaveSB]

I was in Belle Isle, Detroit, Michigan for work a few weeks ago and got the chance to snap some decent pics of these two cannons. I don't know much about them and the 'museum' was closed.

[DaveSB]

A few more pictures from Belle Isle

[DaveSB]

last of the pics

[flagman1776]

The Cannon Gallery – this area exhibits three of the many cannons in our collection. Most have been recovered from the bottom of the river by divers working in cooperation with the Dossin Museum. The story of the helicopter crash is told near one. The other large one was recovered from the river off Hart Plaza. The small bronze gun served as a signal cannon and Lyle gun (lifesavers would shoot a line from the beach to a grounded vessel to help get the crew to shore), and greeted visitors to gangway of the first museum, the schooner J.T. Wing.
Source:  http://dhsdocentportal.weebly.com/uploads/5/8/5/0/5850095/dossin_great_lakes_museum_docent_manual.pdf
 
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2011/10/05/Cannon-recovered-from-Detroit-River.html

[little seacoast]

On the cannon shown from the muzzle in picture #3, is the damage shown from poor casting (crack and erosion) of later damage?

[Bob Smith]

Well, if that second gun was defending (or attacking) Lake Eyrie in 1813, she was a very old lady indeed! The number 7652 shows the gun was recorded in Chatham in 1699 and reported as spare- ie not attached to any of the named ships. And the initials suggest it was cast by one of the Browne family, which addes at least another twenty years before that!
Bob Smith

[cannonmn]

Bob, thanks for the info.  Until I saw your post I did not know that the service records of English cannon such as that, survived.  Would you comment on the extent of coverage of such surviving records in terms of Army vs. Navy, and timeframes, or whatever other divisions are appropriate?
Here in the US as you probably know, very good records are available for US Navy cannons from about 1850-1900, but there's almost nothing on Army cannons since the original reports, with a few exceptions, apparently contained type and quantities of that type only, no registry numbers etc.

[Bob Smith]

I am afraid I will have to disappoint you, John. It is only one survey or numbering, which took place c1699-1700. I am sure you actually know about it; Howard Blackmore printed the section relating to the Tower of London as one of the Appendices in his Ordnance Catalogue and Adrian Caruana devoted a large section of his Sea Ordnance volume to it, along with some transcripts realting to the navy guns. Ruth disagreed with his dating and pointed out the errors in his transcriptions in a short article in Mariners Mirror. Basically it is a number of almost 15000 cannon, mainly either aboard ship or at naval depots. It surveyed about 2/3 of the existing navy at the time. There are a few forts and garrisons on the south of England included, and some of the Tower of London guns probably belonged to the Artillery Train. As far as we can see it was never attempted before or since and the volume was left unfinished. Ruth believes that it was carried out in the short period following the Peace of Ryswick 1699-1700 by Colonel Brown, the Master Gunner and was left unfinished either because of the resumption of war or the Colonel's death.
The gun numbers are instantly recognizable, as in this particular case. The survey is held at the National Archives in Kew.
Bob Smith

[cannonmn]

Thanks Bob, though I have Blackmore's volume on The Ordnance, and refer to it often, I'd never read the part you mention, so that survey is totally new to me. 
I do try and find as much of the provenance as possible on pieces in my own collection, and one such search took me to The Tower where I had arranged in advance for the Master of the Armouries, who I think at the time was one Guy Wilson, to make the gun proof books available to me.  I quickly found the proof records for a 4.5 inch mortar of 1819 and a 12 pounder howitzer of 1831.  I had copies made of course.  The records weren't terribly informative, just the type and number of the piece, weight, the fact that they passed proof, and any variance from specified dimensions.  But copies of those records are good things to have to go along with the weapons.

[DaveSB]

On the cannon shown from the muzzle in picture #3, is the damage shown from poor casting (crack and erosion) of later damage?

the white stuff? bird poo....

[Cannoneer]

Thanks for posting the pics, Dave. Here's an old thread about the gun recovered in 2011; unfortunately you can no longer freely access the other photos in the link.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,242355.msg1099389018.html#msg1099389018

[Cannoneer]

Well, if that second gun was defending (or attacking) Lake Eyrie in 1813, she was a very old lady indeed! The number 7652 shows the gun was recorded in Chatham in 1699 and reported as spare- ie not attached to any of the named ships. And the initials suggest it was cast by one of the Browne family, which addes at least another twenty years before that!
Bob Smith

Bob,
Do you know the purpose of the circle engraved on the cascabel knob of the second gun?

[Bob Smith]

I have a vague feeling I have seen one on another 17th century cannon but can't locate it. No idea what it was for.
 
Bob

[MKlein]

Do you know the purpose of the circle engraved on the cascabel knob of the second gun?

Maybe O means Marked Obsolete until replaced