Author Topic: Here is a tough one: which would be better.  (Read 8393 times)

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Offline mrbigtexan

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2012, 03:24:39 PM »
id check into a commercial mauser myself, but out of the choices presented i would say go with the howa, buy bullets with the money saved from the winny and become a better marksman.

Offline 44 Man

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2012, 03:38:20 AM »
What happened to someone mentioning the 'new' model 70's?  I have one, a .270 featherwt that is a few years old, it has a beautiful stock and the finest (regular, not the new lever type from Savage which is just as good, but not necessarily better) trigger I have ever used.  It balances and shoots great and is also glass bedded.  It cost me $500.  I think it is a good as anything out there.  I understand the allure of the 'Pre' style guns, just like some people have to have a Colt  pony on the side of their handguns.  But for the investment, you can't beat the new model 70.  As for the Howa (or Remington) being 'just' a push feed, I've never heard of that style ever giving a problem either.  In 'theory' it could, but it seems in praccticality it works just fine.  Next I'll find out how my Savage 11 with the accutrigger and synthetic stock measures up.  I can't scratch it in the woods.  44 Man
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Offline wmdron

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2012, 07:52:37 AM »
For me it would have to be the model 70 regardless of the price difference. I've been close to buying a Howa a few times and just haven't been able to do it. I own two plastic stocked rifles and while the Hogue overlay is a step up, I don't think I'll ever buy another rifle with a plastic stock. I am sure that Howa makes a good rifle, probably one of the best in that price range, but the look and feel of walnut is what does it for me. Ron...

Offline gunnut69

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2012, 05:00:40 PM »
I used to do the stock work for a smallish gunshop in central Missouri and there was a barrel full of broken synthetic stocks. These were replaced with high grade synthetics for the most part but some with lamintes. I would build with a 1930-40 M98 with a stainless tube, grayed as Ruger does it and a lightened laminated stock. Hollowed out butt and fore end, to cut weight.. and with one one the new replacement triggers for the 98 that are copies of the M70 trigger.. The safety would also be replaced with a M70 style unit, one of the few to actually block the strikers fall, the rest just block triggers.. Just opinion of course..
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Offline Couger

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2012, 02:48:29 PM »
Quote from: Graybeard
Actually I'd not get either. I'd get a Remingtgon.

 
 
"IF" I was only allowed one or the other of those two choices, I hope it would be a .30/06 for my "ONE" do-everything-riffle!
 
And I'd choose the M70.  Great riffle!  Seen MANY of them in .30/06 and .270 (pre-'64 seventies!) that almost always shoot "with" if not actually outshoot many riffles made new today.  And I'm NOT blowing sunshine here!
 
But I too would prefer a [lightweight] Remington [Model Seven with a 20-22inch barrel] in .308 for my all-around BG-shooter!  If I could have only one riffle!

Offline Swampman

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2012, 03:21:04 PM »
Antique rifle designs like the Model 70 and the Mauser are interesting to study.  Best accuracy will always come from a push feed like the Model 700 Remington.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline 44 Man

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2012, 11:46:53 PM »
Oh Swampman, you is hard!  It may be true, and a S&W or a 1911 is better than a Colt single action, but that doesn't affect my choice.  :)  Getting back to the rifles, they will all do the job.  So after that it's all a matter of preferences, and we all have different ones.  Some like synthetic stocks and some like wood.  Some like push feed and some like controled feed (it's still a 'push feed' until the cartridge gets caught by the extractor).  Hmmm, push feeds catch the cartridge under the extractor also, it's just a smaller extractor.  Some like the classic style, some like the most modern design possible.  Same with triggers.  Anyway, the one thing I will agree with from everybody is that it's not possible to go wrong with a 30-06.  The rest is just what YOU prefer.  Get what you want, and you will not have 'buyer remorse' afterwards wishing you had done something else.  44 Man
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Offline mcbammer

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2012, 01:24:39 AM »
Question ;   Are   Howas   imports   from    China  .   I   still   relate    Asian  products   as   cheap   replicas.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2012, 04:11:11 AM »
Question ;   Are   Howas   imports   from    China  .   I   still   relate    Asian  products   as   cheap   replicas.


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Offline gunnut69

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2012, 06:20:30 PM »
I must point out that push feed actions don't engage the cartridge ubtil the extractor snaps over the rim as the bolt closes. A controled round feed grabs the round as it rises from or is released by the feed lips of the magazine. With the M98 the cartridge actually rises up the bolt face behind the extractor.. I prefer the M70 style safety but both block the striker itself, not just the trigger. There are very very few fkaws in the engineering.. Some weakness in the rails near the thumb cut but easily fixed.. As far as accuracy I would venture few of us if any would be able to realize any advantage to a push feed, though the tubular receiver form could be an advantage.. The remington extractor has issues but works ok but the pushfeed M70 with the M16 style is likely stronger.. neither can compare to a M98.. The M98 is the best engineered action of all..brutally strong, reliable and as accurate as anyone can ever need.. The remington's rule on the target range is likely a combination of the ease of sleeving it's tubular receiver for improved stiffness and the handiness of being able to snap a round into the boltface to feed the rifle from the rear..  JMHO
gunnut69--
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Offline wmdron

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2012, 10:15:53 AM »
Recall on some Howa 1500's.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2012, 11:45:52 AM »
The 10 second lock time of the Mauser is fine for an ancient combat rifle.  Not so much if accuracy is needed.  IMO the Model 70 cannot be improved upon.  The Model 700 will out shoot either.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline muznut 54

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2012, 12:10:02 PM »
In your dreams swampy. :o

Offline tobster

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2012, 11:31:22 AM »
I must be getting old. I remember when those pivot mounts like the one in Bigeasy's pic were popular.

Offline Zachary

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2012, 12:19:11 PM »

OK Guys,
 
   Here is a really tough one.  If you were going to buy just one rifle for everything rugged outdoors, which of the following would be better:
 
   1.   A used lighweight pre-64 Winchester Model 70, in VG condition, with the original walnut stock.  (cost approx $950) OR
 
   2.   A new Howa 1500 with a Hogue overmold stock  (cost approx $430).
 
   The Winchester obviously has one of the most reliable, rugged, and best designed actions ever invented, including the claw extractor.   The problem is, that there are almost no aftermarket things for it whatsoever.  If you want a synthetic stock, then there only two real choices:  the Ramline (junk) at $90 or a  McMillan at (gulp) $500.    Bell & Carlson lists one that "will substantially fit", but they are for the regular rifle, not the lightweight, leaving a big gap under the barrel, and folks report lots of problems trying to get them to fit. 
 
   The Howa, on the other hand, is just a push feed, medium quality action, with an AR-15 type extractor.  But, it comes with a great synthetic stock, and if you want a walnut one, they are pretty easy to find.  Brownell's now carries a small magazine extender that replaces the bottom metal, and increases the number of rounds by three or four, depending on caliber.  It also comes in a true short action.
 
   Though neither is really very light, I think they weigh about the same.
 
   Any thoughts between these two?  Really a question of whether you choose a superior action over a lower quality with more flexibility.
 
Thanks, Mannyrock
 
 

Between the two, I would probably get the Winchester.  However, I have to ask...have you looked at the Tikka?   I have owned several and they have all been amazing rifles, and a Tikka trigger is as close to a Jewell Trigger that you can get from the factory.  Also, Tikka's synthetic stocks are, IMHO, one of the better factory synthetic stocks out there. I strongly suggest that you look at the Tikkas before you make your decision.

Offline D Fischer

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2012, 09:48:00 AM »
I don't understand the appeal of the pre 64 mod 70's? Not a gunsmith but I have read that the 65 mod 70 was a better rifle but an ugly thing. I recall when they came out what most people were objecting to was the inletting of the barrel channel and I believe it had stamped checkering, I would not have bought one because they were top of the heap ugly. As far as hunting rifles go, accuracy is more than adequate for most every rifle made. I can only think the lure of the pre 64 iss nothing other than being able to say you have one. I have a newer mod 70 Ftr Wt in 6.5x55 and no way would I trade it for a pre 64. Come to think of it, there is one thing I like about the pre 64's, they all have wood stocks.

Actually for a reasonable price, I might have one. The thing to keep in mind about rifles is they are all just rifles and each is probably safer than the guy using it.

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2012, 01:40:18 PM »
  D. Fischer,
 
     If you ever held a pre-64 Model 70 up next to a 1965 Model, I think you would see the huge difference. The pre-64 is based on the Mauser 98 action design, refined practically to perfection.  Almost all parts are milled steel, and the walnut is beautiful.  The action and bolt are as slick as glass.
 
   The later 1965 models  were totally different, push feed junk, that were built to be as cheap as possible.  They not only had impressed checkering, but junky stamped metal parts, and as I recall, plastic grip caps.  The danged sleeve cover was only held on by a slide pin that was "peened" on each side, and often fell off when the pin ends got worn.
 
    The pre-64 Winchester Model 70 continues to be a gold standard, even today.   There is a reason people will  still pay $800 even for a really beat-up used one.  They are without a doubt better built rifles.  The Model 70s built in 1965 and later are still regarded as junk today, and for good reason.  However, sometime in the 1970s, Winchester revamped the Model 70  again, (I think calling it the XTR model), and it was somewhat improved. 
 
   I think that most Winchester historians and collectors regard the 1965 to 1975 era as being the low water mark of Winchester, when they made the worse rifles ever.  That Winchester eventually went bankrupt.
 
   Regards, Manny
 
   

Offline D Fischer

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2012, 04:13:59 AM »
  D. Fischer,
 
     If you ever held a pre-64 Model 70 up next to a 1965 Model, I think you would see the huge difference. The pre-64 is based on the Mauser 98 action design, refined practically to perfection.  Almost all parts are milled steel, and the walnut is beautiful.  The action and bolt are as slick as glass.
 
   The later 1965 models  were totally different, push feed junk, that were built to be as cheap as possible.  They not only had impressed checkering, but junky stamped metal parts, and as I recall, plastic grip caps.  The danged sleeve cover was only held on by a slide pin that was "peened" on each side, and often fell off when the pin ends got worn.
 
    The pre-64 Winchester Model 70 continues to be a gold standard, even today.   There is a reason people will  still pay $800 even for a really beat-up used one.  They are without a doubt better built rifles.  The Model 70s built in 1965 and later are still regarded as junk today, and for good reason.  However, sometime in the 1970s, Winchester revamped the Model 70  again, (I think calling it the XTR model), and it was somewhat improved. 
 
   I think that most Winchester historians and collectors regard the 1965 to 1975 era as being the low water mark of Winchester, when they made the worse rifles ever.  That Winchester eventually went bankrupt.
 
   Regards, Manny
 
   

Well about the 1965 mod 70, I would agree with you. My mod 70 was one of the last before Win quit and the pre 64 has nothing on it. I strongly suspect that it would take a fool to blow up either. But I really don't get why people are comparing the pre 64 to the new mod 70's that went back to control round feed? There are a lot of people that have had their pre 64's since they were new and swear by them. Same people could have started the same way with a different brand and model and have the same opinion about it today. had a brother in law years ago that absolutely loved his Mossberg mol 800. In his view nothing could compare to it! Of course it was his first and only rifle and he'd seldom shot anything else. A rifle is just a rifle and some are more accurate than others. Depending on who you ask, some even look and handle a lot better than other's but all function reasonably well and all seem to have adequate accuracy for hunting right out of the box.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2012, 05:36:25 AM »

OK Guys,
 
   Here is a really tough one.  If you were going to buy just one rifle for everything rugged outdoors, which of the following would be better:
 
   1.   A used lighweight pre-64 Winchester Model 70, in VG condition, with the original walnut stock.  (cost approx $950) OR
 
   2.   A new Howa 1500 with a Hogue overmold stock  (cost approx $430).
 
   The Winchester obviously has one of the most reliable, rugged, and best designed actions ever invented, including the claw extractor.   The problem is, that there are almost no aftermarket things for it whatsoever.  If you want a synthetic stock, then there only two real choices:  the Ramline (junk) at $90 or a  McMillan at (gulp) $500.    Bell & Carlson lists one that "will substantially fit", but they are for the regular rifle, not the lightweight, leaving a big gap under the barrel, and folks report lots of problems trying to get them to fit. 
 
   The Howa, on the other hand, is just a push feed, medium quality action, with an AR-15 type extractor.  But, it comes with a great synthetic stock, and if you want a walnut one, they are pretty easy to find.  Brownell's now carries a small magazine extender that replaces the bottom metal, and increases the number of rounds by three or four, depending on caliber.  It also comes in a true short action.
 
   Though neither is really very light, I think they weigh about the same.
 
   Any thoughts between these two?  Really a question of whether you choose a superior action over a lower quality with more flexibility.
 
Thanks, Mannyrock
 
 

easy the mod. 70 add a H.S. percision stock for around $350 if you need to . pre 64 might have soghts good. add a peep on the rear .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Winter Hawk

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2012, 09:25:20 AM »
Hi Manny!  Good to see you back on this thread which you started more than a year ago.  So which did you go with, or was this just a question to see what folks feel about these two rifles?

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Offline tomtomz

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2012, 06:18:01 PM »
Early 70s WBY Vanguards by Howa are hard to beat.

I like GEW 98 Mausers and Parker Hale or FN Mausers.

All of those are shooters, and can be successfully accurized, if needed.

A classic Winchester would be a keeper, not a shooter for me,
as are all of my Winchesters (I collect classic lever action rifles.)

Remingtons just make me cuss a lot. And I've never got a decent price for
one thar I've resold. Just lowballers for customers IMO.


Offline JPShelton

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2012, 01:30:39 AM »
Do you want a safe queen or will you use the M70 in bad weather and lessen the value over time?

I don't think that hunting with a classic automatically decreases its value.
 
When I was 18 years old, I purchased a Griffin and Howe built on a 1903 Springfield action from the widow of my pediatric dentist.  She thought about just giving it to me, but figured if I paid her a little something for it, I'd be inclined to treat it as Doc did.  "A little something" turned out to be $250.00 1983 dollars.  That figure was arrived at by her asking me what new rifle I would buy and what it would cost.
 
Doc had that rifle made as a graduation present to himself upon matriculating from dental school.  That was in 1927.  He hunted with it for the next 56 years on five continents, but it wasn't some beat up old piece of junk when I got it. It had some bluing wear on the muzzle from being shot, and a little on the edges of the Lyman 48 aperture sight it was fitted with, but aside from those minor flaws, it was in fabulous condition.  I used it as my main big game rifle until 1994.  During that 11 years, I used it in five western states, a couple of Canadian provinces, and took plains game with it on two seperate trips to Botswana.  I used it in searing heat, torrential rain, and freezing snow.  It looked just as good at the end of my use of it as it did when I got it, and it was worth a darn sight more than I or even Doc originally paid for it.  It was what it was -a used, but not abused and very immaculately and lovingly maintained rifle.  I don't think the Doc or I put a serious dent in that rifle's value through our use of it.
 
My first rifle was a Marlin 336 that my dad bought second hand in 1976.  I still have it.  I have used it extensively for 37 years.  It is not some beat up looking POS in spite of riding in saddle scabbards, getting rained and snowed on, and so on.  The bluing is still in good shape, as it the wood.  I suspect I could sell it today for at twice what my dad paid for it if I were so inclined.  It was used, but not abused.
 
A little over a year ago, I paid $425.00 for an N.I.B. condition Remington M-721 in .270.  I suspect that when I am done with it some 40 years down the road or more, it likely won't be worth any less, assuming the Government still allows transactions in firearms to occur then.  And I plan on using it until that time.
 
I have recently acquired some rifles that I bought for my dad over the years.  One of these is a Ruger M-77 Ultralight in .250 Savage.  My dad used it for 10 seasons.  Aside from the bluing being blasted off the muzzle crown from firing, this rifle still presents in as-new condition and my dad shot about 1,500 rounds through it.  The wood doesn't have a ding or scratch in it.  It got rained on by the same rain my Springfield got exposed to.  It got snowed on by the same snow.  It got seared by the same heat.  It rode in a saddle scabbard when my .30-30 did likewise.  It was used, but not abused, and was lovingly and carefully maintained.
 
I paid $250.00 for it in 1985 or so.  I paid another $135.00 for a Leupold VX IIc 2 X 7 compact scope.  I suspect that if I were to sell it, it would fetch a darn sight more than the $380.00 I was in to it for when I bought it.  I don't have to wonder about that, actually, becuase I bought myself a similar setup at the same time and sold it in 1995 for more than I was into it for.
 
A few years after I bought my dad the M-77, I bought him a Ruger No. 1-B in .30-'06.  This was his "holy grail" rifle, but one he felt he could never justify spending the money on. I paid $275.00 for it in 1989. I bought a Redfield Tracker 3 x 9 scope for it at around the same time, which was about $100.00, if I recall correctly.  My dad never hunted with it (he said he wouldn't if he ever got one because it was "too pretty to use") but it was a cherished "range toy" and he shot it every once in a while over a span of 20 years.  He must not have shot it much, because there isn't any noticible blueing wear at the muzzle like there is with the M-77.  I'll never find out for sure, because I'll never sell it, but I bet I'd get more for it than the $375.00 I paid for the package when I bought it, even though it has been shot.
 
My dad also "re-gifted" me with an M-48 Mauser that I bought from Federal Ordinance in So. El Monte, CA in 1992.  This was refinished to like new condition and fitted with a new 7.62 Nato barrel in Israel in the mid 1950's, then relegated to storage until Fed Ord imported it.  I bought two of them for $100.00 total.  This rifle has been rained on and snowed on, but aside from some bluing wear at the muzzle from being shot, it is in the same "arsenal re-finished as new" condition it was in when I bought it.  I suspect, if I were so inclined, that this would also fetch more than the $50.00 I paid for it.  My dad liked this Milsurp more than I ever thought he would -firing upwards of 3,000 rounds through it over a period of about ten years.  I don't think that diminsihed its value much.  Considering what I paid for it, it had nowhere to go, value-wise, but up.
 
Another example from my own gun oollection is the 20 gauge Ugartechea double that was the first shotgun I bought with my own money.  I hunted with it extensively for 26 seasons, sometimes in rain, sleet, snow...  I paid $425 for it in 1983.  After a quarter century of hard use, I sold it for $1,200.00.  I used it frequently and often in all kinds of weather but I wasn't careless with it and didn't abuse it.
 
I'm reasonably certain that if I were to buy a pre-'64 Winchester, and if I were to use it as my main rifle for a period of years, I'd be able to use it without abusing it and without diminishing its value much.  In my experience, old school blued steel and walnut can take more exposure to elements than people nowadays seem to think that these materials can.  Much depends on how they are cared for and how much care is excercised in their use.
 
JP

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2012, 05:54:15 AM »
Guys,
 
   Thanks for all of the viewpoints and comments.    As to the original question, pre-64 Win vs. Howa, I think my final decision would be based on weight.  Although the Howa is a good rifle, I note that not only is the stock synthetic, but it is significantly heavier than the pre-64 Featherweights.  Weight is a big factor for me. 
 
  As to the pre-64 to post 64 Win. 70 issue, I was not addressing the new Model 70s made by FN in South Carolina.  I understand that those are extremely nice, though I have no experience with them.  I do note that their list price is extremely high, higher in fact than the cost of a well used pre-64 (with  stock cut for a recoil pad.)  Most of the beat-up pre-64s I have seen still have pretty good metal, 98% or so, and it is the stock that has taken a pounding.  Assuming no cracks, refinishing a stock is a really easy thing to do.
 
Regards, Mannyrock

Offline D Fischer

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2012, 02:54:06 PM »
The new mod 70's price is to high? Mine is about 5 or 6 yrs old now. I paid right around $700 brand new and it has a beautiful wood stock, a claw extractor, a three position safety and machine cut checkering that isn't all that bad. Remember this is a production rifle, if it didn't have some stamped parts we couldn't afford it. But if the metal is stamped, they sure did a nice job of it! Your talking about buying a used rifle at min 39 yrs old and if I recall it had a price tag of around $900. I think if you love a pre 64 that much that you'd even consider paying that kind of money for it, get it!

Most of my rifle's are Remington's but most the rifles sold today and pre 64 are just as safe as the person using it. Most will out shoot most owner's, out of the box. I really don't care if someone wants to spend $900 on a 39+yr old factory rifle I just don't get this over whelming love affair with them. And I have handled and shot a few, they are a rifle but I would not call them especially good looking!


Offline tomtomz

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2012, 04:47:53 PM »
I don't think that hunting with a classic automatically decreases its value.

I would bid on any of those rifles at substantially higher starting prices should they be for sale.

You knew that already :)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2019, 04:57:42 AM »
Let's bring this one back up and see if folks might want to talk more about it.


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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Here is a tough one: which would be better.
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2019, 01:12:37 AM »
well if you would have picked the 950 dollar pre 64 it would be worth at least 1500 today and if you picked the 430 dollar howa you MIGHT get 430 dollars for it today. Wouldn't be on it though. Now if this post would have been which would you have chose if your house was on the line in a contest as to which would shoot the smallest group the howa would have a change.
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