Author Topic: Powder storage?  (Read 1342 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NitroSteel

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 208
Powder storage?
« on: December 22, 2006, 12:07:48 PM »
A couple years ago I ordered 10lb's of powder and I kept it in my dad's shop where it would be safe, dry, away from kids, sparks, open flames, etc.  Since then I've just been buying a pound at the time (and I've moved into a bigger house with a fireproof safe).  I've never minded keeping a pound or two of blackpowder in the safe. 

My dad now has a small (and growing) tribe of grandkids and I worry about them finding it and getting hurt or blowing the shop and themselves up.

Today I ordered another 10 lb. lot of powder and am not sure if it's o.k. to store it in my safe (I know what a 1/4 pound can do with a 16 lb bowling ball).  I hate the thought of having a potential "bomb" in my basement, but maybe it's nothing to worry about?  I pity the fellow that tries to break into it with a torch, but really just want to know what ya'll do with your powder.  What would happen if it somehow ignited, or if there were a housefire?  It is a fireproof safe, I'm not sure about "wall thickness" ;D.  Maybe this has been covered before, but I've missed it.

Offline Cat Whisperer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Gender: Male
  • Pulaski Coehorn Works
Re: Powder storage?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2006, 12:24:15 PM »
Storing powder is problematic.

It should be cool, dry.


I live some miles from where powder is manufactured.  The buildings themselves are built with strong walls but with roof structures that blow out easily.  In the event of an explosion, adjacent buildings are protected.

Powder that is stored is stored in bunkers well separated, underground (cool) and well ventilated - blast doors have additional walls in front of them for added protection.

I guess what I'm saying is, make your design or plan for survival should the worst occur.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Powder storage?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2006, 01:52:11 PM »
It would be worth your time reading the J. Bushnell Smith chapter of Hatcher's Notebook when thinking about powder storage.  You want to keep it away from kids but also from sources of ignition of all types.  Here in the CA SSR, the law limits you to possessing only 20 lbs of smokeless powder and 5 lbs of black powder, although it is unclear whether this means total or in one builidng.  But it is a good idea to keep large quantities of it in a secure but expendable building as it really intensifies a fire and your fire department may be staffed with "heroes" of the type that will let the fire burn itself out if there is any ammunition going off in the fire, even though there is little risk of injury from burning ammunition.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Rickk

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
    • http://www.lioby.com
Re: Powder storage?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 03:26:17 PM »
I keep most of mine outside in a 4x4x8 concrete structure built just for this. Walls are 8 inch solid concrete, ceiling  is 3.5 inches concrete, roof above the ceiling is covered with metal. Door is 1 inch thick steel. Interior is wood lined. There are fireproof vents floor and ceiling. It is located at the bottom of a hill behind my house where the hill forms a natural barrier.

I used to keep quite a bit of smokeless and a bit of BP in the basement, but the quantities were adding up and I now have a 4 year old boy as well. Before I decided to order 50# of BP, I built the concrete shed.

Smaller quantities of BP (a pound or so of various granulations) for immediate use are kept closer to the house are in Ammo boxes in a shed.

I now only keep a few pounds of smokless down in the basement reloading room.

This might be considered "overboard" by some, but it meets ATF regs for construction and spacing from dwellings.


Offline NitroSteel

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 208
Re: Powder storage?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 05:10:21 PM »
That was a more complicated answer than I expected.  So definetly not 10 lbs in the gunsafe downstairs (probably not even a pound)....  I'll think on it for a while and figure out a safe place to put it or build a place for it.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Powder storage?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 05:35:39 PM »
Check with your local Fire marshall about storage requirements.  I believe the National Fire code has a description of a locked powder storage box made of wood and drywall.

I would not store powder with guns.   Keep them separate, just like ammo should be stored separate from guns. 

Offline Rickk

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
    • http://www.lioby.com
Re: Powder storage?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2006, 04:03:39 AM »
Technically, you need at least an indoor type 4 magazine.

 Go Here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=200327

In the search terms window enter "powder magazine"

Open up the .txt document in the resulting list that says "Subpart K - Storage" for all the magazine info.

For an indoor type 4, here is what they say:

(b) Indoor magazine--(1) General. Indoor magazines are to be fire-
resistant and theft-resistant. They need not be weather-resistant if the
buildings in which they are stored provide protection from the weather.
No indoor magazine is to be located in a residence or dwelling. The
indoor storage of low explosives must not exceed a quantity of 50
pounds. More than one indoor magazine may be located in the same
building if the total quantity of explosive materials stored does not
exceed 50 pounds. Detonators that will not mass detonate must be stored
in a separate magazine and the total number of electric detonators must
not exceed 5,000.
    (2) Construction. Indoor magazines are to be constructed of masonry,
metal-covered wood, fabricated metal, or a combination of these
materials. The walls and floors are to be constructed of, or covered
with, a nonsparking material. The doors must be metal or solid wood
covered with metal.
    (3) Hinges and hasps. Hinges and hasps are to be attached to doors
by welding, riveting, or bolting (nuts on inside of door). Hinges and
hasps must be installed so that they cannot be removed when the doors
are closed and locked.
    (4) Locks. Each door is to be equipped with (i) two mortise locks;
(ii) two padlocks fastened in separate hasps and staples; (iii) a
combination of a mortise lock and padlock; (iv) a mortise lock that
requires two keys to open; or (v) a three-point lock. Padlocks must have
at least five tumblers and a case-hardened shackle of at least \3/8\
inch diameter. Padlocks must be protected with not less than \1/4\ inch
steel hoods constructed so as to prevent sawing or lever action on the
locks, hasps, and staples. Indoor magazines located in secure rooms that
are locked as provided in this subparagraph may have each door locked
with one steel padlock (which need not be protected by a steel hood)
having at least five tumblers and a case-hardened shackle of at least
\3/8\ inch diameter, if the door hinges and lock hasp are securely
fastened to the magazine. These requirements do not apply to magazine
doors that are adequately secured on the inside by means of a bolt,
lock, or bar that cannot be actuated from the outside.

~~~~~~
Note that they don't tell you about thickness of walls. I recall reading someplace that the National Fire Protection Act wants 1 inch minimum wooden walls.

Also, look at the document entitiled "Sec. 555.218 Table of distances for storage of explosive materials" to see where you can keep your magazine.

Note that you don't have to get your magazine approved by the ATF (local approval may be required) if you are not a dealer or manufacturer (just a user of under 50#), but they expect you to meet the construction rules anyway.

As a side note, local fire department rules may differ from, and even conflict with the ATF requirements. In one town I used to live in, they required that powder be kept in surplus ammo boxes. That conflicts with what the ATF wants, as there was no wood under the metal (the wood slows down internal temperature rise if there is a fire). So, to be 100% legal, you have to check local requirements and try to meet both them and the ATF's

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Powder storage?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2006, 06:30:38 AM »
Especially note sentence three:

No indoor magazine is to be located in a residence or dwelling.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Powder storage?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2006, 06:55:52 AM »
That regulation applies to commercial explosives.  There is an exemption for black powder in the explosive regs.  For a definitive legal explanation of this law always contact the U.S. Attorney General's Office.

Sec. 555.141  Exemptions.
(a) General. Except for the provisions of Secs. 555.180 and 555.181,
this part does not apply to:
...(4) Small arms ammunition and components of small arms ammunition.

(b) Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to persons
required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not apply with
respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to
exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills,
quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is
intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural
purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or
antique devices, as exempted from the term ``destructive devices'' in 18
U.S.C. 921(a)(4).