94 vrs. 336 When they Wear?

[flmason]

Hi All,
    Picked up a 336W recently. Mainly because they can be had new in box at decent prices. Seems like a fine rifle.

However, when I read of the "Marlin Jam" and then review diagrams of how the 336 and the 94 function... I get the impression that the 94 would continue to function even if severely worn, whereas the 336 has at least two points of failure the 94 does not?

The first is the cam. Clearly some have cited wear at this point as the actual cause of the "Marlin Jam".

The second is the connection of the lever to the bolt. Looks to me like wear at that point would let the lever slip off the bolt and not fully retract it?

Am I on the money here?

Seems the 94 has a linkage on the bolt that, even if work, it simply has to pull it out... it would have to be literally broke to not work (I think... don't have one, just going by schematics and vids.)

I don't even see an equivalent to the cam issue in the 94.

Anyone know anything?

If I'm correct, it basically means the 94 is going to be more reliable long term, unless there are other failings of the 94 I haven't noticed yet.

[Ranger99]

i think it's personal tastes myself,
apples vs. oranges  mango vs. kiwi etc.


i still use a 1950 vintage marlin with
zero problems other than the scope
problem i had (long story) there are
zero problems.


my buddy has used 94's and marlins
and prefers marlins


i'd say just shoot it and enjoy it
and long as it will minute of deer

[spruce]

Both are great designs.  And like any mechanical device both will eventually wear out if used enough.
 
Go ahead and shoot it for 50 years or so and let us know if you start to have any problems with it after that!

[Dee]

Both are great designs.  And like any mechanical device both will eventually wear out if used enough.
 
Go ahead and shoot it for 50 years or so and let us know if you start to have any problems with it after that!

Ya beat me to it. I've been shootin my model 94 3030 since 1958. Lets see? That would be 55 years? I haven spent any time worrying about when it might wear out, and trust me this rifle has been used. Just pic one.

[flmason]

Both are great designs.  And like any mechanical device both will eventually wear out if used enough.
 
Go ahead and shoot it for 50 years or so and let us know if you start to have any problems with it after that!

Ya beat me to it. I've been shootin my model 94 3030 since 1958. Lets see? That would be 55 years? I haven spent any time worrying about when it might wear out, and trust me this rifle has been used. Just pic one.

Well, that's my point, looking at the designs, on paper, Looks like the 94 could absorb more loosening of the tolerances and still function correctly than the Marlin.

However, as someone pointed out to me... just Google, "Marlin Jam".

The idea was to compare the two designs with respect to what happens as they wear. And, find out if my belief that the Winchester design, being linkages, vrs. camming surfaces, is in fact less likely to come out of time, as it wears.

But I only own a Marlin, and am not an engineer, so wanted other opinions.

It's not about. "Gee will it wear out?"

It's about, "Which one wears out more gracefully and why?"

The 94 vrs. 336 debate has been going on for over 100 years I guess, and reams of paper and internet expended on it and most of what you read is the "Well... top eject vrs. side eject.... Pre 64 vrs. post 64... Marlin is stronger... Winchester is stronger...." etc.  You guys know all the basic talking points, I'm quite sure. SOS or SSDD basically.

But I haven't seen a serious, unbiased design analysis anywhere. (Or perhaps a serious, "run them until they break and take notes, test regimen.)

I suspect it exists, I just haven't found it.

Anyway, for me, reliability it always at or near the top of the list, so I was mulling over the schematics and linkages vrs. camming surfaces is what finally jumped out at me.

[Larry L]

My step dad was a peanut farmer in the sand country of Texas. He carried a Marlin 30-30 Levergun what seemed like forever. I never knew it to ever come out of his truck. When he bought his new 1959 Chevy Cameo truck, it was the first thing that went in the truck. Five engines later and several front ends, he finally bought another Chevy truck and that Marlin was on the front seat for the rest of his life. As far as I know, it had never been cleaned. Like he said, Don't need no cleaning as long as it works". After he died bro and I got his old Marlin and the grit and dirt literally fell out of the gun. But it shoots Remington factory ammo just like it was a target rifle. It's a little on the loose side but considering the gun was shot at least once a week and hunted with all year round, there's not much tellin just how much ammo has been thru that rifle but it's a lot. I'm a Marlin guy and have most of the different models and chamberings. Bro is a Winchester collector and he has most of the models, chamberings, take downs, etc. so it's a family thing when I tell you we bump heads when it comes to which is the better rifle. Truth be known, they're both far better rifles than we deserve. With proper care, you won't live long enough to ever wear one out. Probabilities are high neither will yer grandkids.

[flmason]

My step dad was a peanut farmer in the sand country of Texas. He carried a Marlin 30-30 Levergun what seemed like forever. I never knew it to ever come out of his truck. When he bought his new 1959 Chevy Cameo truck, it was the first thing that went in the truck. Five engines later and several front ends, he finally bought another Chevy truck and that Marlin was on the front seat for the rest of his life. As far as I know, it had never been cleaned. Like he said, Don't need no cleaning as long as it works". After he died bro and I got his old Marlin and the grit and dirt literally fell out of the gun. But it shoots Remington factory ammo just like it was a target rifle. It's a little on the loose side but considering the gun was shot at least once a week and hunted with all year round, there's not much tellin just how much ammo has been thru that rifle but it's a lot. I'm a Marlin guy and have most of the different models and chamberings. Bro is a Winchester collector and he has most of the models, chamberings, take downs, etc. so it's a family thing when I tell you we bump heads when it comes to which is the better rifle. Truth be known, they're both far better rifles than we deserve. With proper care, you won't live long enough to ever wear one out. Probabilities are high neither will yer grandkids.

I hear that. Ruger Super Blackhawk would be closest thing to a family tradition in my family.

Anyway, the idea isn't to degrade one or the other. Just to compare designs and know what the respective strengths and weakenesses are.

As easy on my guns as I am, I doubt a a patented pot metal gun like a Jenning J-22 would wear out.

Think of it as an engineering question, not at attack on either gun. (Eventually I'm gonna have to have a '94 anyway, LOL! Men are to guns like women are to shoes, )

[keith44]

Both are great designs.  And like any mechanical device both will eventually wear out if used enough.
 
Go ahead and shoot it for 50 years or so and let us know if you start to have any problems with it after that!

Ya beat me to it. I've been shootin my model 94 3030 since 1958. Lets see? That would be 55 years? I haven spent any time worrying about when it might wear out, and trust me this rifle has been used. Just pic one.

Well, that's my point, looking at the designs, on paper, Looks like the 94 could absorb more loosening of the tolerances and still function correctly than the Marlin.

However, as someone pointed out to me... just Google, "Marlin Jam".

The idea was to compare the two designs with respect to what happens as they wear. And, find out if my belief that the Winchester design, being linkages, vrs. camming surfaces, is in fact less likely to come out of time, as it wears.

But I only own a Marlin, and am not an engineer, so wanted other opinions.

It's not about. "Gee will it wear out?"

It's about, "Which one wears out more gracefully and why?"

The 94 vrs. 336 debate has been going on for over 100 years I guess, and reams of paper and internet expended on it and most of what you read is the "Well... top eject vrs. side eject.... Pre 64 vrs. post 64... Marlin is stronger... Winchester is stronger...." etc.  You guys know all the basic talking points, I'm quite sure. SOS or SSDD basically.

But I haven't seen a serious, unbiased design analysis anywhere. (Or perhaps a serious, "run them until they break and take notes, test regimen.)

I suspect it exists, I just haven't found it.

Anyway, for me, reliability it always at or near the top of the list, so I was mulling over the schematics and linkages vrs. camming surfaces is what finally jumped out at me.

I did a search of Marlin 336 Jam, all of the first three pages said "new rifle...30/30..." So I suspect wear would not be an issue with either rifle.  I have watched and used Dad's 336 all my life.  His is a first run 336, before all the silly letter designators, was the first rifle I reloaded ammo for, and other than a lack of bluing it is as fine a rifle as it was when it was new.


On the other hand, my Father-in-law has a Win 94 of about the same age (top eject) that is equally as dependable, and accurate.


Both rifles cycle as they should, lock up tight (or as tightly as designed), eject normally, and with continued care will likely be as well functioning when they are passed to the great grand children as they are now.

[Bugflipper]

I've had 94s in that jammed as well. The action would be locked up with a case still in the bolt and the tip of the bullet in the front of the ejection port. I don't know if they short stroked it or what? One fellow brought his in a week or so later with the same problem. His bullets specked out right. I just trimmed a little off of the front of his ejection port, reblued and gave it back to him. I personally couldn't get it to jam, just guessing he wasn't coming all the way down before going back up. None the less he never brought it back again. The second time was free and I let him know if there was a 3rd time it would be free as well so he'd of probably brought it back if he had any more trouble out of it.

Both lever actions were highly popular here until the magnum craze. Can't say that I worked on more than a dozen in my life so I wouldn't worry to much about either having serious problems.

[flmason]

I've had 94s in that jammed as well. The action would be locked up with a case still in the bolt and the tip of the bullet in the front of the ejection port. I don't know if they short stroked it or what? One fellow brought his in a week or so later with the same problem. His bullets specked out right. I just trimmed a little off of the front of his ejection port, reblued and gave it back to him. I personally couldn't get it to jam, just guessing he wasn't coming all the way down before going back up. None the less he never brought it back again. The second time was free and I let him know if there was a 3rd time it would be free as well so he'd of probably brought it back if he had any more trouble out of it.

Both lever actions were highly popular here until the magnum craze. Can't say that I worked on more than a dozen in my life so I wouldn't worry to much about either having serious problems.

I'm really not worried about problems per se. The question is more about design attributes than anything else. The pure engineering plusses and minuses, if you will. 

 Clearly both designs have served 100+ years and 14+ million units worth of riflemen, LOL! I guess that's one reason why I like them.

As for magnums... never really felt the need in rifles. In handguns, yes, because they are inherently less powerful in most cases. So definitely in revolvers I go for the .44's and .357s... planning on a .454 Casull when I find a NIB SRH that I like.  In rifles, 06, 45-70, 30-30, 7.62x54r, 8mm... all good enough for me. Do admit to liking the .458 Win. Mag though. There's just so many capable cartridges... more than I could ever get to in one lifetime.

Anyway, the most common cause I read for the "Marlin Jam" was wear between the cam on the lever and the carrier... so easy fix seems to me... if it happens to wear that way... hard face the cam and shape it... embed and silver solder a hard metal insert into the carrier. I imagine the cowboy action shooters have some sort of durability and "slickness" mods they do.

Som wouldn't want to have to, but not really worrying about it. Seems like a simple thing to correct. Though I have to admit, if it came really out of time... unlike an SAA, I really couldn't at the moment, begin to figure out what would have to change. Will have to disassemble it a few times and look it over, do some reading.

So I guess it's really just a gun buff question.

One thing do wonder about though, is the cam surfaces between the hook on the lever and the bolt stop/lock (not sure what it's called).   Since the lever moves in an arc... down and around... I could see those surfaces wearing in way that would let the lever slip off without fully pulling the stop down.

Maybe not, I'd have to sit down and work out the geometry to really know how much it would take.

It's an interesting design point to be sure... gets rid of the need for a linkage of some sort.  Just wondering if the tradeoff is reduced service life.

In a similar vien, I have to wonder if... the bolt stop lets go... does the lever essentially try to break your fingers, if not sever them?

Perhaps unlikely, but it does strike me as a possibility.