Author Topic: Hunting loads for deer & black bear using the 1895 Cowbo (Read 1832 times)

hans g./UpS · « **on:** February 17, 2004, 09:32:33 AM »

Any hunting loads for deer and black bear using the 1895 Cowboy 45/70 with Hornady 350gr flatpoints or 405gr cast projectiles?Range will be limited to <=125 yards[iron sights,my bad eyes].
Thanks.

dla · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2004, 10:04:14 AM »

My favorite load with my Guide Gun is 52gr of IMR3031, Remington 405gr JSP, WLR primers, Rem NP brass(1700fps cold, 1810fps hot). However I'm in the process of searching for my new "favorite" using H322, as it is much less temperature sensitive.

My current favorite cast load is 46gr of H322, 405gr flat point, plain base, 3 lube groove, 18bhn, .460" diameter, WLR primers, Rem NP brass, for 1770fps.

I've heard that the Cowbody barrels are better than the Guide Gun, in that Marlin doesn't screw them up so bad stamping nomenclature and broach-cutting dovetails. With that said, you might be able to get good results with .459" diameter cast bullets.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2004, 05:10:21 AM »

Just a note on loads and strengths of actions for the 45-70. In the Feb. 1999 issue of Shooting Times Magazine Dick Metcalf has load data for the T/C Contender where he loads the 500gr Hornady jacketed bullet with 46gr of H322. He states in this artical that there is severe recoil but there is no pressure problems for this Trapdoor level action(weaker than 1895 action). So I'm thinking that you should be able to move up in your powder level with your 46gr load. I know a fellow who has a T/C Contender carbine 22" barrel that has been loading 49gr H322 for about 1700fps with no ill affects to his gun.
Cam

dla · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2004, 06:31:18 AM »

Camp cook: You're right, I could raise the charge. But I'm looking for a sweet spot accuracy-wise.

I've run 52gr of H322 under a .460", 405gr PBFP, WLR, Rem NP brass for 1950fps, 18.5" barrel. But that's a bit too much recoil for my liking and there's no particular hunting advantage to pushing a hardcast bullet that fast.

Substituting the Rem 405gr JSP with 52gr of H322 netted 1870fps. But I think the group size at 50gr (right at 1800fps) was better - but more work is needed.

RIFLERANGER · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2004, 09:45:17 AM »

It's been proven that you obtain maximum penetration at somewhere between 1300 and 1600 FPS. You can load down for less recoil and still get all the killing power you need from the 45-70.
Even loaded down to those velocities, many a bison and buffalo have been taken with the 45-70 in the old days.
Ranger

Camp Cook · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2004, 02:41:32 PM »

dla.... I'm looking at your velocity for the 52gr H322 load @ 1950fps. In order for me to get that velocity in a 1895GS I had to use several grs. more than you. Curious why this would happen. What primers are you using? I'm using Win LR primers.

Rifleranger.... I have read what you wrote several times before in gun mag's and it is not that I am questioning this info but more like if this statement where true why is it that they say the 458Win mag is supposed to be a better stopper than the 45-70? I have seen the penetration test results that compared bullet penetration in inches for the different big bore rifles and handguns but that data was more geared to compared the 45 Colt more than the rifles.

Don't get me wrong I'm not arguing against you guys for example the majority of the loads that I shoot out of my 45-70's are WFN's cast 405gr's @ 1650fps and 450gr's @ 1550fps. Now one thing that could be different is that I am using my 1895GS more as a remote wilderness area personal protection rifle than a hunting rifle so I'm thinking differently than you guys. I want as much punch as I can get on the loads that I am going to use for that one purpose. Harder recoil more velocity may just equal peace of mind for me or who knows maybe I just have magnumitis? lol's!!!
Cam

dla · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2004, 10:31:15 AM »

Camp cook: Remember, I was shooting cast, not jacketed when I got the 1950fps.

When I shot 52gr with 405gr jacketed, I got around 1860fps.

Hope this helps.

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2004, 12:49:20 PM »

C.C.

I think the idea is that what is needed for a humane kill on most North American wildlife in a stalking situation, where the animal doesn't have any inkling he is about to be terminated, is a lot less than what is needed to stop one of our larger critters which is on adrenaline and doing his best to terminate YOU. Sort of like the .30-30 having killed lots of moose, but if you step on a grizzly's toe you probably want at least a .30-06 w/ 220gr. bullets to stop him.

-WH-

Camp Cook · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2004, 02:46:20 PM »

dla... that explains it! I was thinking jacketed bullets! I haven't tried to push cast ones that fast , concerned about leading problems. Thanks for the info.

WH... I totally understand about what your saying. Other than my 375 H&H mag with 300gr Nosler Partitions @ 2500fps I'm new to this heavy slow bullet theory. Got my first 45-70 about 4 years ago. I was always a high energy/velocity guy example my S/S 300 Remington Ultra mag 180gr Scirroco's @ 3380fps or 200gr Swift A-frames @ 3250fps. I bought a Rem 7400 carbine last year in 30-06 and tried the 220gr RN bullets but was only getting 2100fps (57grs of IMR4350 if I remember right) but was still thinking high velocity. I was not getting reliable bullet feeding so had to tell my wife that I didn't trust the gun for bear protection. Shucks she believed me! Thats another reason why I now have a Marlin 1895GS.
Cam

dla · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2004, 07:12:03 PM »

Quote from: Camp Cook

concerned about leading problems.

I will tell you that if you shoot a .460" diameter bullet with a decent lube, you can push it to 2000fps all day long.

If a .459" bullet fits your bore you can do the same.

Or you can use a gas-checked .459" bullet and you'll have no problem. No problem other than the recoil.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2004, 11:15:04 AM »

dla... what do you call a decent lube? I have only been using the lube that comes on the cast bullets, kind of hard crayon blue or red color stuff.
Cam

RIFLERANGER · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2004, 03:29:25 PM »

Quote from: Camp Cook

Rifleranger.... I have read what you wrote several times before in gun mag's and it is not that I am questioning this info but more like if this statement where true why is it that they say the 458Win mag is supposed to be a better stopper than the 45-70? I have seen the penetration test results that compared bullet penetration in inches for the different big bore rifles and handguns but that data was more geared to compared the 45 Colt more than the rifles.

The key thing here is penetration and stopping power are two distinctly different ballistic characteristics.
There is no question that the 458 WM has more stopping power than the 45-70, but there is proof positive (and I swear to you that I will find it and post it) that a slower moving 45-70 bullet will out penetrate the faster 458 WM, the 458Lott, and any of the other faster moving magnums.
Just give me some time to find that penetration article again.
Ranger

dla · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2004, 03:34:20 PM »

Camp Cook: Only shooting will tell you if the lube is going to cut it. There are two levels of "lubiness": Level 1 - does the lube prevent leading near the muzzle? If so, then the lube at least keeps your bore clean. Level 2 - accuracy. This is where most commercial lubes fall down - but yours may be OK. LBT and Apache Blue are two pretty decent commercial lubes.

But the single biggest issue in shooting cast is proper bullet fit. I believe you should err on the side of too big. That is why I recommend Marlin shooters use .460" diameter. Or use a gas checked .459". Marlin cuts their bores on the large side.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2004, 07:19:43 AM »

Thanks guys.... your info is great! Look forward to the penetration data. I'll check the muzzle for any signs of leading.
Cam

3030 Man · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2004, 05:40:59 PM »

Greetings
The test on Penetration is on Randy Garrett"s web site under Commentary.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/default.asp

30-30 Man

Riflemanz · « **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2004, 02:37:14 PM »

REM 405gr bullet and 52gr IMR-3031 is a very accurate load in my 45-70 guide gun.

jaycocreek · « **Reply #16 on:** March 06, 2004, 02:16:27 AM »

I am not sure of the strength of the Cowboy as I don't have one.My thought's are something similar to Hornady's factory 350 Hornady for the 450 Marlin would be a good choise for Deer and Black bear as I believe that was there intention for this bullet.I load in my Guide Gun the 350 Hornady with H-4198 for the same velocity as the .450 Factory with good accuracy.

Good luvk.Jayco.

jaycocreek · « **Reply #17 on:** March 06, 2004, 07:01:04 AM »

I agree with our biker friend altho I like to compare the 45-70 as they put it,in categories It is kinda like the .308-.30-06 and .300 Win Mag all with the .308 bullet but at different velocities.Does the .308 kill game?Yes it does.Is the .06 alittle better?Yes it is.Is the .300 Win Mag the better choice for all big game?I think so.
This goes with the 45-70 at different velocities.At lower,it is more like the .308 and in the middle,it's like the trusty .06,and when loaded to max or close to it,it's like the .300 Mag.Bring em on.

A great gun with lot's of option's to suit everyone's need's.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

jaycocreek · « **Reply #18 on:** March 06, 2004, 07:24:43 AM »

Bestlever-I hate to bring up Broken Record,but I think your record player is skipping again.Four post of the same content?It's time for the shop my friend.Once they get your record back on track?

?it will play as smooth as it used to.

If you need anything at all dial BR549.And the gang will be there for you.

Concerned in Idaho.