What is coming and dying from Detroit

[Bob Riebe]

Did some online checking online as there are few to zero print magazines to read any more that carry the latest rumors.

One is that the next Corvette will go back to front engine, concerning remarks from a GM engineer due to some problems with the rear-engine car; second is that the Camaro will die in 2024.
One possibility is a special farewell Camaro powered by the Cadillac DOHC Balckwing engine that  for all practical purposes was DOA when the new full size Cadillac to compete with Mercedes was cancelled.  It was put in a short run of 800 Cadillacs to use some already built.

New Mustang is coming next year, and may have a version of the new large block push-rod engine.

Challenger and Charger will cease to exist the same year as the Camaro but there will be a new Chrysler 300 based on a Peugot chassis.
No V-8 as that will die with the Challenger and Charger.

It is amazing, Detroit is shrinking it offerings drastically but Ferrari, which for decades into the nineties had for the most part 2 to three offering , i.e. different chassis it now has 11 car models on 7 different chassis , two of them front engined and one is a 4 passenger sedan; it will bring out its own SUV in short order.
GM now has 3 cars (sedans) two from Cadillac and one from Chevrolet.

 General Motors and Ford cut from their respective sedan crops, there are a few automakers out there that still offer a relatively robust sedan lineup in the United States. For example, Volkswagen Auto Group offers six sedan models, including the VW Jetta, VW Passat, Audi A3, Audi A4, Audi A6, and Audi A8. Hyundai/Kia/Genesis offers 11 sedan models, including the Hyundai Accent, Hyundai Elantra, Hyundai Sonata, Kia Rio, Kia Forte, Kia K5, Kia Cadenza, Kia K900, Genesis G70, Genesis G80, and Genesis G90.

If you want to get a new V-8 four door sedan, in the U.S. your choices are now down to Cadillac, Chrysler 300, Mercedes Benz , Audi and  Nissan Lexus.
Oddly wheile Cadillac killed it car to take the Germans head-on, Nissan for this year created a 4 door sedan to do the exact thing the Blackwing was created for -- (Cadillac has not killed the engine, they are developing and selling : -- The Blackwing V8 may have no future within GM, but it turns out the engine will indeed live on – albeit in a very unlikely place. Manifattura Automobili Torino, an Italian company that makes low-volume performance cars and specialty vehicles on contract, has entered an agreement with GM to use the 4.2L Blackwing V8 engine design in a yet-to-be-unveiled new vehicle. The engine will continue its development at the GM Powertrain Torino engineering facility in Piedmont, which GM recently sold to Belgian powertrain company Punch Group, before being used in the new MAT-built car. Work on certain GM projects will continue at the Turin-based facility

Not that many years ago if some one said this would happen I would told them I had a bridge in New York for sale.

[Graybeard]

For the 2022 line Toyota has dropped the V8 engine from it's truck line. They are replacing it with a 3.5 L V6. Hard to believe but that's what the Toyota site says. I can't see me ever buying a full size truck with a pint size engine.

That's OK my 2017 Tundra only has a little over 12,000 miles on it, yes that's no misprint, a bit over 12,000 miles. I don't see me driving it enough in my life time to need a new truck so long as it doesn't get wrecked and totaled. It still looks basically new both inside and outside.

[Lloyd Smale]

i think alot of this is just rumors. What i see with these muscle cars being said to be  on there last leg and even the v8s in trucks going away is preparation for 2024 if the democrats hold on (which they wont) even come midterm time when we will back the power id bet most of this insane, not even close to realistic talk of electrics is going to fade away and in 2024 will be just some hippys still wanting to put flowers in there hair. I look at dodge. Hands down there best selling car is th challenger. Most of us who own them sure arent going to spend 60-100k on some singer sewing machine. We are motor heads. That is why 2024 is scheduled to be the last year for camaros.

 Dodge by the way didnt say they were going to discontinue the challenger just that a new generation is coming. The elections will probably determine whether it is gas or electric. But the challengers been one of the longest running cars without a major change in the history of american cars. I look right now and to get a hellcat or redeye your looking at a 6 month wait and paying over sticker for it. Why would dodge throw something like that away unless is mandated by the government. I havent heard the v8 toyota thing because honestly i dont keep up on toyotas.

The vette problems have actually been minor and this is the first ive hear of them going back to front engine. Personaly i doubt your going to see that. Chev has dumped to much money into this new car to throw it all away. Add to that performance wize the car is (censored word) amazing. At 490hp it runs with hellcats and gt500s that put out 200 more hp and waxes them in the corners. Biggest problem with vettes is again buying one. They were suppose to base at 60k when they came out. You cant find a new one for under a 100 grand today. Another thing that makes me doubt that is they just rolled the first new z06 off the line and its at mecum auctions being auctioned off. If they were going to ditch the mid engine they sure wouldnt have gone ahead with the Z. which by the way will wax just about any car made and supercars that cost 3 times more then it and they put millions into that new motor which is the highest hp naturally asperated motor ever made and is a completely different motor then anything chev made before. Its closer to the flat plane crank ford motor then any chev motor.

Sadly electric cars are probably here to stay but there not going to take over the industry. You will see little eco box cars for the hippys and top end 100k trucks and cars for the rich yuppys that want to brag to there buddys at the office. You might see cars like the challenger get smaller turbo gas motors but even that is questionable because its not what there fan base wants. Just look at your local dodge lot. You cant find a hellcat or even a 392 sitting there. There sold the day they get them. You might see an 5.7 rt but thats even questionable. Whats sitting there unsold are the 6 cyl chargers and challengers because they just dont sell well. Bottom line is this is all just crazy politics from the left that is trying to force us to drive what THEY want us to drive. To push electric cars WAY before we have the capability to keep them all charged. It all plays into there ultimate goal and that is to keep you at home, hungry and dependent on them to exist so they can rule like the leaders of russian and china do. Personaly i dont think america will stand for it. Like i said this will all go away in 2024 when sanity comes back to DC. If it doesnt im like bill. I have a ram with 35k on it a wrangler with 60k on it and my challenger has 25k on it. I could probably keep them going till i die. I doubt chysler wants to many people thinking like Bill and i do.

[BUGEYE]

Lloyd, good post.

[Bob Riebe]

Stellantis (Chrysler) has definitely said the V-8 is being discontinued, you are correct though there will be a Challenger, supposedly with a new straight six.

With Chevrolet breaking the tradition of putting the engine in the front with the Corvette C8, GM decided to go take a step back and place the engine in the front and not in the middle, like they have done for almost 75 years.

"It had to be done," says GM. While some loved the idea of the C8 with its extra bit of spiciness and exoticism, others despise the C8, saying it should not be part of the Corvette name plate due to its engine being placed in the middle. The C8 also had its fair share of quality issues, with the most recent one being cracked wheels. As a result, GM and Chevy decided to play safe and return to the front-engine layout for the C9. However, GM has not announced when they plan to release the Corvette C9.

https://drivetribe.com/p/breaking-c9-corvette-will-be-returning-RQmotb7QTC2eWa6Kp0XFZw?iid=NwQA_ChaRDOw1BhAplBZlQ

Now none of this is final, but then Cadillac had the new full size sedan ready for production and then killed it; at that a possible new Barracuda, rumor is still floating around with one site saying, if done, it will also be based on a Peugeot chassis with a six banger.

[Graybeard]

The decision by Toyota to drop the V8 is final and they are already shipping them with the tiny little V6 to dealers I think. I know the local dealer where I bought by last two or three Toyotas is already trying to sell me one.

[phalanx]

With a turbo? They are tubochargering the crap out of these new vehicles.

[Graybeard]

Here is a video about it:

https://youtu.be/es2RmGBHRTs

[Lloyd Smale]

Now none of this is final, but then Cadillac had the new full size sedan ready for production and then killed it; at that a possible new Barracuda, rumor is still floating around with one site saying, if done, it will also be based on a Peugeot chassis with a six banger.

Like you said Bob all of this is just rumor. Bottom line is most of this relies on what happens in DC over the next 3 years. I hang around a couple challenger fourms on the internet. I see these 6 cyl turbo rumors (and thats what they are so far) I see two things. Chryslers is not in a hurry to do this. Why? because of just what i said. Very few buyers want this. Looking at those forums id say less then 5 percent. The ONLY reason they would try to force the issue is if they are being forced to do so by the government. Corvette? Again its just rumors. But i can say this much. Corvette fans dont want electric period. They dont want 6 cyls period. Now mid engine vs front engine i dont know. I know being a traditionalist myself id rather see it front engine but then i look at sales and there pulling in 20-30k over list price for these mid engine vettes and its a waiting game if you order one and your still going to pay that mark up so someone sure does want them. I dont pay much attention to ford or toyota and what there doing. It just doesnt interest me. Im a chev and mopar guy. I was at the dealership getting my ram serviced for the last time under warantee that that dealership sells rams and chevs. On the chev side of the lot there was 23 new trucks. ONE of them had a v8 all the rest were 4 cyl turbos. Why? Nobody wants them. Its probably the main reason for the first time ever rams (dodges) outsold silverados this year. Loyal chev guys are buying rams with hemis rather then settling for a 4 cyl full sized truck. Now toyotas buyers are a different breed. They will buy toyotas if they put a 2 cyl turbo motor in them. Theyd but them if they had 4 squirrels running in a wheel under the hood. But they are a very small part of the  truck market. Its sad though because from what ive been told that toyota v8 is one of the best motors ever dropped into a truck.

All it will take is one manufacture to hold the line against these insane ideas being forced on to them and they will run the rest out of buisness. Americans want trucks. They want FULL sized trucks and they want V8s. Performance car buyers in america want V8s!! I had to chuckle this morning. I check msn every morning to see what the enemy is up to. today they had an article on the fact that the electrical demand in this country is going up sharply every day. That this new demand is going to create alot of polution (aint that a no brainer). Then those same idiots want to charge two cars in every driveway in the country??? They want to ban gas vehicles from the roads and where do they think the cars there banning are going to go? In landfills!! Anyone with a lick of sense knows that this is just postering from the left. Its a political move to get those idiot hippy liberals to vote for them. They know as well as you and I that this country sure isnt even close to being ready to switch to electric cars  and they also know that creating electricity creates pollution.

Like i said. Mark my words. When and if midterms go our way things will settle down and all this bs will be put on the back burner. gm ford and chrysler arent going to put billions of dollars into perfecting electric cars when the sane goverment takes away the money there throwing away giving it to the car manufactures to pursue this bs. Why would they? why spend money on something your buyers dont even want?? Do you really think the president of GM cares about tail pipe emissions!! He cares about stock dividends period! When we shut up people like pelosi shummer aoc ect this all comes to a screaching halt. If we dont win this will never end. A new corvette gets bettter gas mileage and pollutes less then a 1984 chev chevette did. Did that satisfy any of these wacco left wing hippys? What happens is they push electric. Then 10 years from now they say that we cant sustain charging them all without massive polution. End game? Ban all cars and make you stay home where they have you under there thumbs and unable to fight them. whats next? Ban tvs because they use to much electricity? Can you imagine how much electricity all the tvs in the country use in a day??? Ban them and they can do what they want and you wont even know there doing it. That right there is there end game. There just chipping away at it slowly so theres less resistance. bottom line is when someone defends these radical changes being forced onto the automakers your just giving them slack in the noose. Please bob dont take this as an attack on you. Only thing that was addressed to you here was my opinion of the rumors you posted.  I know your a car guy like i am.

[Graybeard]

Now toyotas buyers are a different breed. They will buy toyotas if they put a 2 cyl turbo motor in them. Theyd but them if they had 4 squirrels running in a wheel under the hood. But they are a very small part of the  truck market. Its sad though because from what ive been told that toyota v8 is one of the best motors ever dropped into a truck.

Just don't think you know or understand Toyota truck owners, Lloyd. For sure this one doesn't fit your mold. I'll never own a full size truck with a pint size engine. As much as I love Toyota full size trucks, both Tundra and Sequoia, I'll never own either with that puny little 3.5L V6 they are slipping into them in 2022.

Yes the Toyota V8 is one of the best engines out there. It doesn't deliver all that great of gas mileage but it is a no worry always going engine and has loads of power at 381 HP. I can't imagine a situation I'd ever need more power than it has. Since I drive less than 2500 miles a year I just don't worry about gas mileage. So that one short coming of it, gas mileage, just isn't an issue for me.

I guess in my life time other than a couple of VW bugs I've owned one vehicle that got more than 25 mpg. I've really never bought based on how fuel efficient a vehicle is.

[Bob Riebe]

Now none of this is final, but then Cadillac had the new full size sedan ready for production and then killed it; at that a possible new Barracuda, rumor is still floating around with one site saying, if done, it will also be based on a Peugeot chassis with a six banger.

Like you said Bob all of this is just rumor. Bottom line is most of this relies on what happens in DC over the next 3 years. I hang around a couple challenger fourms on the internet. I see these 6 cyl turbo rumors (and thats what they are so far) I see two things. Chryslers is not in a hurry to do this.

Chrysler is just a cog in a wheel, Stellantis say what does or does not happen.

All 14 brands of Stellantis NV will have a decade of support and funding to prove their ability to rebound or grow, and their products will be developed in the regions where they are sold, CEO Carlos Tavares said Thursday.

The transatlantic automaker offers popular Ram pickup trucks and Jeep SUVs in the United States and Peugeot and Opel cars and crossovers in Europe. But products from other brands like Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Dodge and Fiat are aging, some face carbon-emission regulation challenges, and others have struggled to gain traction.

"For the time being, we love them all," Tavares said from his home in Portugal during an Automotive News World Congress webinar. "Each (brand) CEO has 10 years for which I am telling him or her that he has the funding, the ability to build his long-term business plan and plan for the different product launches and technologies to make the brand grow or rebound and create value for the company."

Tavares previously stated his commitment to continuing all of the makes, which also include Abarth, Citroën, DS, Lancia, Maserati and Vauxhall. This week's comments, however, underscore the unique visibility given to each brand's leader to prove their worth. Stellantis itself is expected to share its 10-year strategy before the end of the year, Tavares said.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2021/05/13/stellantis-ceo-says-brands-have-10-years-prove-their-worth/5072774001/

I just spent one dollar to subscribe to a trial version of  Automotive News the industry news paper (They used to produce AutoWeek also decades back) so for a time I will have up to the week scuttle.
People in Detroit can get the Detroit News, second best out there.

[Lloyd Smale]

good news in that is there isnt the pressure to go electric in the overseas market like there is here. They dont have near the percentage of liberal hippys that we have here.

[oldandslow]

I have no need for a truck anymore so pay little attention to what is going on with them. My son has an old Dodge so If I need something that requires a truck I just holler at him. I seriously doubt that I will ever purchase another vehicle. My Acadia is big enough to haul about anything I need and it will last as long as I am able to drive.

[phalanx]

I have no need for a truck anymore so pay little attention to what is going on with them. My son has an old Dodge so If I need something that requires a truck I just holler at him. I seriously doubt that I will ever purchase another vehicle. My Acadia is big enough to haul about anything I need and it will last as long as I am able to drive.

Great and i just bought a fossil fuel  truck. What happens when everything goes electric? Will we still be able to buy gas?

[Lloyd Smale]

i can see states like CA banning the sale of it. Or at least trying. But that would push most to far and i doubt those polititians pushing it would be in office long. More likely you will see the banning of sales of gas powered cars in some liberal states and gas stations being phased out slowly as demand goes down. It will come down to those that cant afford a new car or some high dollar electric being left out in the cold. but then that seems to be the agenda for those socialists. they want power and privilage and they want the rest of us to be reliant on them for everything and kept at home on welfare so they can pull any string they want and we have no choice but to dance. Truth be told its like ive said for a long time on here. Theres no way this country today can support two cars in every driveway or even one that is electric. It would take BILLIONS of dollars if not TRILLIONS to upgrade our electrical grid and find a way that pleases those flower planting hippys to generate enough power. They live in some dream world where power comes from the electrical fairy that leaves deap in the ground. That is why i truely believe when the liberals in DC fall (and they will) that this bs is all going away and gas motors will live on for decades more.

[Lloyd Smale]

bill heres my take on toyotas and ill leave the made in america out of it. I think many toyota buyers are people that dont know cars. Not all of them but i look at who buys them and its not the people who really work trucks. they rightfully think back 2o years to a time when those little 4 cyl toyota motors went 200k when everything else was shot at half that. they were ahead of there time no doubt about it. They not only went 200k but did it without OD transmissions which are responsible for alot of the reason motors just last longer.

Now fast forward to today. Your toyota v8 is a great motor. I cant aruge that. But what i will argue is that so is a hemi or a chev v8. They all are capable of 2-300k if taken care of. Toyota owners tend to forget that. As to power. We are blessed today to have motors that put out over 350hp which is more then most muscle cars did when we were young and still will last that long. Now my ram puts out a few more hp then your toyota but its a heavier truck so id bet side by side there about even. Gas milage? Well when i drove chevs i had a legit point. they just get better gas milage then any other v8 and its hard to argue. My silverados would easily pull down 22 mpg on the highway. Maybe even a touch better. But that said my ram probably doesnt do any better then your toyota. i can get 19 if i drive it 60 on the highway but i dont so thats not really fair. To be honest its a 17-18mpg truck. About the same as your toyota. But where the rams reallly shine is they go down the road as nice as any car if not better. Like you i dont worry a whole lot about gas milage. My wife drives the truck and i for the most part drive the jeep and its more like 15-16 and imo is underpowered with the 6 that comes in them.

There brings up another point. This big push for small motors doesnt really net you anything. A chev v8 actually gets better gas milage then a 6 cyl full sized truck in the real world. Sure they can trump up some numbers to make it look like the 6s do better but in the real world where your running around town or have a load on or pull a trailer the v8s are just better. That goes for the hemi vs 6 cyl rams too. Id bet my house that if they put a 5.7 hemi in my wrangler it would do better then the lame 6 thats in it too. I dont know about toyotas v8 vs there 6 because i just dont pay much attention to toyota trucks. For the most part all this small engine bs is just that, bs. Smoke and mirrors to be able to slap some number on them that isnt real world. Take the jeep for example. They put a 6 in it to get corporate gas milage figures knowing that probably half the buyers are jacking them up and putting big tires on them that absolutely crushes the underpowered 6 cyl gas milage figures when a v8 wouldnt be effected near as much.

But all that said i have to say about the opposite of what you said. I think its the other way. I think toyota owners just dont understand the domestic trucks. They dont believe how far theyve came in the last 10 or 15 years. I really dont care what kind of truck someone else buys. But i will stand up and tell the truth when they spout off the bs that somehow a toyota is better then a chev or ram or even (God forgive me) a ford. Personaly i wont ever buy a toyota. I think you know that about me by now. But then you will never see a ford ANYTHING in my driveway either. Thats more personal preference then it is anything else including being patriotic. i realize that where you live people, good american people, are making a living from the manufacture of toyotas. thats a good thing. Id much rather see a ban on chinese cars coming into this country then toyotas built here. I say let toyota sell every car and truck THAT THEY MAKE HERE. I do believe that we have to do something about all the cars and trucks imported into this country. Most of them with no tarrifs. That hurts your toyota factory as much as it hurts ford or gm. Americans are getting jobs building them and much more of the profits off of them go back overseas then even toyotas. Its no different then our dependence on forign oil. We have to start becoming self-reliant in every industry if this country is going to survive. We let the japanese completely take over the electronic market years ago. We have a government in power today thats so insane they buy protective masks from the chinese who started this whole mess and probably did on purpose. We have to draw a line in the sand. I say MADE IN AMERICA and will even except a company like toyota that is willing to do that. I say start punishing even ford chrysler and chev for building factorys and buying parts in other countrys. Honestly anymore the lines are so blurred that the domestic brands arent any better then toyota. If we are going to survive as a country this crap has to change.

Now toyotas buyers are a different breed. They will buy toyotas if they put a 2 cyl turbo motor in them. Theyd but them if they had 4 squirrels running in a wheel under the hood. But they are a very small part of the  truck market. Its sad though because from what ive been told that toyota v8 is one of the best motors ever dropped into a truck.

Just don't think you know or understand Toyota truck owners, Lloyd. For sure this one doesn't fit your mold. I'll never own a full size truck with a pint size engine. As much as I love Toyota full size trucks, both Tundra and Sequoia, I'll never own either with that puny little 3.5L V6 they are slipping into them in 2022.

Yes the Toyota V8 is one of the best engines out there. It doesn't deliver all that great of gas mileage but it is a no worry always going engine and has loads of power at 381 HP. I can't imagine a situation I'd ever need more power than it has. Since I drive less than 2500 miles a year I just don't worry about gas mileage. So that one short coming of it, gas mileage, just isn't an issue for me.

I guess in my life time other than a couple of VW bugs I've owned one vehicle that got more than 25 mpg. I've really never bought based on how fuel efficient a vehicle is.

[Graybeard]

I bought a new '82 Oldsmobile Delta 88 4 door sedan full size car. What a piece of junk. It stayed at the dealership almost more than at home. It didn't work from the factory and they couldn't fix it to work.

My needs changed so after about a year of that crap I bought a new '83 Chevy Silverado. WOW, worse than the Olds. Brakes went out on it with 300 miles on it coming off the tallest mountain in Alabama with a load of rocks. My driving skills got me to flatter ground safely but barely.

So back to shop for it to have a completely new brake system installed. Then at 3000 the transmission went belly up. They kept it 3 + weeks that time to put in another new transmission.

It never ran right a single day I owned it. I finally got tired of. I'd guess it spent around 3 months in the shop while I owned it.

So in '84 I traded for a new full size '85 Bronco as soon as they came out that model year. I never had one minute of trouble with it. Not a single issue I ever had to take it back for. Loved it but hoped for better gas mileage.

So In '88 when they came out with the fuel injected Bronco I bought one. I had over $8000 in extras added to it after it left the factory. Never had a single issue with anything on it from the factory but I think every single thing added after that failed on me so again I was running it back to the dealer a lot to fix things that were NOT Ford.

I'd have bought another but for the '97 model year Ford went crazy and made the ugliest truck imaginable and lost me as a customer.

I had sworn I'd never again on any GM product and I haven't since and can't imagine I ever will again. I just cannot forgive them for selling me two brand spanking new POS vehicles.

Fords are now decent looking trucks so I guess I could again try a Ford and not feel too bad.

All of the Chrysler model vehicles I've ever been associated with whether mine, other family members or those of friends have been mechanical and electrical nightmares.

I know all were a long time ago and today's Chrysler isn't yesterday's but like GM they screwed me over all the chances they are every gonna have to do so. I'll never own anything out of their factories even if I have to drive a one seat car with a sewing machine motor in it.

I went to Toyota in 2004 when I bought my first Tundra. That was before they were quite full size. I can honestly say I've loved all of them I've had and have never had to take one back to have any problem fixed on one. Like that Ford Bronco what the factory has done is as near perfection as I can ask for.

I don't care about gas mileage, I just don't drive enough to care. I don't care about power as I only drive the speed limit and not more. All of my Toyotas have had way more power than I have need for and just never fail.

That's all it takes to earn my loyalty. They just plain work with absolutely no issues that need to be fixed or repaired. A vehicle to me is just to get me from Point A to Point B and do so with no problems. I'm not a gear head, I don't modify my vehicles, I don't race my vehicles. I just drive them from where I am to where I want to be and all I want from it is to get me there with absolutely no issues, just total reliability.

Nope I'm not a sophisticated owner. My needs are simple and so long as my needs are met that's truly all that matters to me in a vehicle.

[Lloyd Smale]

guess its luck of the draw bill. Ive owned 8 new silverados since 1977. Only one thats needed anything but normal wear items like breaks tires ect was the 77. Transmission went on that one on the way home from buying it. Dealer came and got it hauled to the shop and pulled a transmission out of another new truck and had it in in 5 hours. I was in the service then and had to catch a flight at great lakes the next day and told them and they went the extra mile for me. Now ive got a brother in law that had the transmission in his toyota car go out at 30k and it was replaced and dads last surburu with that one speed transmission had to have 2 different replacements put in the first year he had it. So it isnt just domestics that can give you trouble. Its all luck of the draw. My1/2 ton 06 silverado was sold to a buddy who has used it as a plow truck since he bought it from me. I was just talking to him the other day and he said it now has 280k on it and the transmission and motor havent been touched. trucks a rusted hulk like about any truck that age up here but it still doesnt even burn a drop of oil. Kind of like ive always said. Look at what farmers loggers and guys that plow snow or use a vehicle hard and what do your see? Mostly chevs and fords.

Ill give you another example. The utility company i worked with was bought out by a bigger utility. They were doing some testing to see what trucks they wanted to use for meter readers. Now you may think that isnt hard on a truck but there started in the morning and shut off at quiting time. they see highway and alot of stop and go. They tested chev s10s ford rangers and toyotas. All were 6 cyl 4x4 club cabs. They factored in cost of buying, cost of maintaining and cost of fuel over 3 years and the hands down winner were the s10s. That test was of 50 trucks of each brand. They repeat the test every 5 years and the meter readers today are driving colorados. They told us cost of buying was hands down a gm win. cost of maintaining was a wash and gas milage was a gm win too. What the report showed was there was fewer problems with the toyotas but cost of repairs was high enough to make it a wash. They also tested nissans but they were far behind in every catagory. The only time they didnt come in last they came in second to last to toyota in cost of purchase. They keep trucks for 5 years and trade them all no matter the miles on them. They buy all identical trucks other then the ones in the 3 year testing rotation. They dont even bother with the nissans anymore. Now honestly i cant swear to it being exactly like that anymore. Ive kind of lost track of the lineman working today and dont really know how they do it. Now another thing ill throw in there is that who knows what kind of kickbacks the upper management are scamming when they do those buys but i know they about all drive Gm vehicles. So im sure there at least getting some kind of deal on them. but then id bet no matter what brand they picked that would still be the norm. 

Now as to chrysler ill say this, I had a 440 gtx back in the day and my first new car was a 340 duster. They bother were basicaly tin cans with big motors and they sure werent in the dictionary under reliable. But take a look at a new ram and ask the owners what they think. I think it would suprise you. Ill say this without hesitation. Fit and finish on my 2020 ram is hands down better then any chev or ford ive seen. Mine only has 35k on it so its not much of a test but only thing so far has been oil changes.. Ill probably find out though because i usually trade every 3 or 4 years and with the jacked up prices today im not buying any truck of any brand. Not till they come back to reality. Its hard to find any truck up here today that they will knock a dime off of. They sent me a letter a few months ago saying they were in desperate need of used trucks. So i called them up and had to laugh. they wanted to give me low book for my truck thats like new and sell me a new one at sticker price. So this one will stay in the driveway. Only other one that stayed was that o6 i sold to the buddy. i went through a divorce and just wasnt in a position to trade it. Actually it was the best truck i ever owned and id buy another just like it if they still made them.

Like i said i dont give a rats ass about gas mileage either and truthfully dont even care if they last 300k. I worked hard all my life to get to the point that i dont have to find that answer out. Like you i dont put alot of miles on my vehicles. My ram has 35k on it and id bet 20k of that has been my son in law using it. He tends to borrow it because his is broke down and bring them back a month later. Have to laugh at him. Hes a typical mechanic. Fixes everyone elses trucks buy has a ram diesel with 300k that is held together with bailing wire. Three vehicles in the yard and even with the wife driving to work i doubt we put a total of 10k a year on them combined.

[Dixie-Dude]

good news in that is there isnt the pressure to go electric in the overseas market like there is here. They dont have near the percentage of liberal hippys that we have here.

About 50% of all cars bought in Norway recently were electric.  Electric cars are growing overseas faster than here.  China has a lot of Teslas and has a Tesla factory.  Tesla also built a factory in Berlin.  German auto companies are offering electric cars from every manufacturer. 

It is going to happen, ranges are going up and charging times are coming down.  Just like automobiles took over from horse and buggy over 100 years ago, this is happening.  Electrics are much cheaper to operate, but their prices need to come down.  Newer cheaper batteries will help.  Nothing wrong with electrics, but I don't believe in forcing change.  Let the market decide.  Tesla was the first to get the range and speed up on electrics, but the batteries are expensive, so they made their cars to be high end with a lot of bells and whistles to compete against BMW's, Mercedes, and high cost luxury cars.  A Tesla model S is their best flagship car but it is about $90,000, so it has a lot of bells and whistles to compete with the high end luxury cars, and can now get 320 miles on a charge and charge in 45 minutes at one of their charging stations, or 3 hours at 220 volts at home, or 8 hours on 110 volts at home.  Not bad, you can drive 4 hours at 70 mph and stop to get a bite to eat while your car charges.  They put their chargers along the interstate system and near restaurants for this purpose.  Their model 3 goes about 230 miles, and costs about $40,000.  I read about 3 Tesla owners caught in the storm in Virgina.  They could turn their engines off and used seat heaters or their heater to stay warm.  The cars computer cycled the heat and monitored it for efficiency.  None ran the battery down too far, while some with gasoline engines ran out of gas trying to keep their cars warm. 

Anyway, the Dems passed a law raising the gasoline mileage standards right before Obama left office to something like 35 mpg for gasoline vehicles.  So, they are turbo charging V-6's and installing 4 valve  cylinder heads.  This improves power and mileage for now.  California outlawed all gas cars by something like 2030 or 2035.  In the  meantime, most cars in the near future will be hybrids with like front wheel drive gasoline small engines and rear engines will be electric.  Electric will be used around town under 45 mph without the need to use gasoline, while gasoline will be used on the highway with electric providing the acceleration when needed then shutting down, such as passing or getting your speed up on the interstate.  This would increase mpg and range. 

A lot of people that want this live in big cities and do not drive but use subways, buses, Uber and taxis.  They don't know what it is like to live in small towns or rural areas. 

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry but even being retired with nothing to do most days im still not willing to twiddle my thumbs for even 45 minutes while my car charges. Im not even willing to drive a little car. I worked hard all my life and earned every penny i have and feel its my right to spend it on what I want. I dont need the government telling me what i can drive or what i can eat. Id feel like a failure in life if 4 or 5mpg meant the difference in me being able to afford where i go or if i can afford it or what kind of a vehicle i need to be able to do it. Even the vehicles lasting 300k isnt a deal breaker for me. Ive never owned one that long. Never will. If the only truck or car i could afford had a 150k on it then i did something wrong somewhere. I have 3 vehicles i can hop in today and drive coast to coast without worrying whether there going to make it or not or whether my check card has enough money to pay for the gas (even though i have intention of doing it) . My wife can drive my truck or jeep in a binding snow storm without worrying its going to break down and leaver her stranded. The fact it costs her 10 more dollars to fill up the truck this year compared to last does piss me off. Its not that i cant afford it its that i know its just a consequence created by they nut case liberals. Same ones trying to cram electric cars down our throats. Little news flash for some that are willing to let it happen or justify it. As soon as they make you drive that sewing machine there going to have you by the balls and electric rates are going to climb higher then gas prices and that will not only effect your cost of driving your car but will affect your home electric rates as well. It will more then anything effect your taxes.

Whos going to pay for upgrading our entire electrical grid?? If you think were ready for it today your smoking some good crap. I can see a day soon if this electric car crap continues that while your being taxed to high heaven to upgrade the lines and substations electricity will be in such a demand that it will need to be rationed. So you will have your choice. Run your furnace use your stove ac lights ect and stay home because you dont have enough electric left to charge your car to go to work. Or charge your can and back to the dark ages at home. You sure wont be wasting money powering your computer or charging your smart phone. So this place will be history. Personally, i believe we will take back the government this mid term election and in 2024 and all this electric car bs will be something we laugh about. But that said someone has to pay for all the research and development that car companies spent in the last couple years and that will be us when we buy a new gas truck or car.

[Bob Riebe]

A major reason for the small engines is the so called world market, in Europe cars are taxed, heavily, by engine size and Detroit wants to sell in Europe and the only way they can do so , practically is to offer engines that are not taxed out of the average persons budget.

MANY Europe exotic cars sport or sedan have much larger engines, some 12 cylinder engines are between 390-488 inches,  because those who can afford those cars can afford the taxes.
A blown engine, and exhaust driven super chargers, so called turbo, is a blown engine,  is NOT more efficient than a un-blown engine and a small engine is NEVER more efficient pulling an equal sized load than a larger naturally aspirated engine.

The current HP levels are not due to  fuel-injection but the HP level with high gasoline mileage IS due to the -- computer -- driven fuel injection which has the bad side of very high cost to repair very minor items.

[billy_56081]

Out coyote hunting today 5 out of 5 trucks were toyotas. 2 tundras and 3 tacomas.

[Lloyd Smale]

im not a fan of turbo trucks or cars unless its done to make them FAST. But i do have argue i bit with you. Not so much a blown engine but a turbo'd motor goes down the highway at 65 producing no boost with the waste gate open  so its basicaly a 4 or 6 cyl normaly asperated motor at that point. When you accelerate it builds boost and what boost does in simpler terms in increases static compression. It turns a 9 to one compression motor into a 14 to one making probably twice the power.

Yup fuel injection and more correctly computerized fuel injection plays a big role in this too. It has to add more and more fuel as boost levels increase and less when its cruising down the road. Now here comes some agreeing. Going down the road in your little car with a turbo not spooling your driving a 9 to 1 compression motor where a naturaly asperated car the same size is running maybe 11 to one. so the normaly asperated car is in fact more effecient. Right up to the point your not driving a steady 55 going down a flat freeway. Lets take the 4 cyl silverado for example. Its a turbo'd motor that puts out about 300 hp. Drive it 55 with no load on a freeway and that turbo isnt adding power and your lower compression is going to knock maybe a mile the gallon off that.

 Now put on a big camper. To get it to move without a turbo your going to have your foot burried in the floor. Going down the highway a head wind would slow you down and for the most part your going to have it matted all day. Add that turbo and it can produce more hp to get you up to speed and more to get you up inclines and still get near the same on the flat. Where it all gets sketchy is motor building is a balancing act. they have to be made as cheap as possible and still hold up. So theres compromises. If i built a supercharged 454 to race id have all the best forged parts money could buy. But forged pistons usually means a bit of  oil consumption and the typical guy isnt going to stand for that. It also costs more money. So they look at the average use a truck might get over its lifetime and ballance that with how much warantee work there willing to do  and built a motor just barely tough enough.

 Now id sure agree with bob if he said that a normaly asperated REAL truck motor like a v8 is more efficient then a 4 cyl turbo. They might lag 2mpg when compared to the 4cyl going down the highway empty at 55 but work them even a little and that advantage goes away fast. Look at the rpm those little 4s and 6s run at compared to a v8 loafing along making plenty of torque down low in the rpm range. that v8 probably produces peak torque at 3000 rpm compared to 5 or 6000 for that 4 cyl. How can you even consider that that motor will last as long as the v8 just loafing along.  Look at the diesel pickups. Whats there big advantage? LOTS more torque then even a v8 and at even lower rpms. Common sense would tell you that if your motor is turning 6k and mine is turning 3k your piston rings are rubbing on the walls twice as a much every minute. How can that not increase wear.

But the way bob ill argue about the blower vs turbo thing too. A turbo is not a blower. You could call them both compressors because they do compress air into your motor but a supercharger is run off the motor by either belt or gears and a turbo is run off of exhaust gases. Super chargers typicaly take 5-10 percent of the cars hp to run them so you have much more loss with them. Turbos run off exhaust pressure with doesnt rob any power from the motor. Its why a typical car like say my challenger turbo'd at 7 psi will produce about 40 more hp then the same car at the same boost supercharged. Its why other then high performance cars you just dont see blowers in cars. they use turbos because they just make more power and get better fuel economy because your not spinning them running down the at 55 robbing hp from your motor. Now ive hear "centrical superchangers"  like pro chargers called belt driven turbos because in fact the compressor part of them is very much like a turbo but its still mechanicaly driven. Still has the losses.  but botton line is

and a small engine is NEVER more efficient pulling an equal sized load than a larger naturally aspirated engine.

that fact is indisputable.

A major reason for the small engines is the so called world market, in Europe cars are taxed, heavily, by engine size and Detroit wants to sell in Europe and the only way they can do so , practically is to offer engines that are not taxed out of the average persons budget.

MANY Europe exotic cars sport or sedan have much larger engines, some 12 cylinder engines are between 390-488 inches,  because those who can afford those cars can afford the taxes.
A blown engine, and exhaust driven super chargers, so called turbo, is a blown engine,  is NOT more efficient than a un-blown engine and a small engine is NEVER more efficient pulling an equal sized load than a larger naturally aspirated engine.

The current HP levels are not due to  fuel-injection but the HP level with high gasoline mileage IS due to the -- computer -- driven fuel injection which has the bad side of very high cost to repair very minor items.

[Dixie-Dude]

Tesla vs Ford pulling test:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=tesla+vs+ford+tug+of+war&qpvt=tesla+vs+ford+tug+of+war&view=detail&mid=01C821C19DFA77FC2E8001C821C19DFA77FC2E80&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dtesla%2Bvs%2Bford%2Btug%2Bof%2Bwar%26qpvt%3Dtesla%2Bvs%2Bford%2Btug%2Bof%2Bwar%26FORM%3DV

Electrics have more torque

[Lloyd Smale]

yup but a diesel truck will run down the road 500 miles and still have ground moving torque and wont have to wait 2 hours at a charging station while the diesel gains another 140 miles on the trip even with a stop to fuel up. Add to that it doesnt look like a reject from a B science fiction movie. When you show me farmers or loggers buying them ill pay attention. Till then there just novelty trucks for affluent people trying to impress there buddys with how much money they have. 

Tesla vs Ford pulling test:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=tesla+vs+ford+tug+of+war&qpvt=tesla+vs+ford+tug+of+war&view=detail&mid=01C821C19DFA77FC2E8001C821C19DFA77FC2E80&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dtesla%2Bvs%2Bford%2Btug%2Bof%2Bwar%26qpvt%3Dtesla%2Bvs%2Bford%2Btug%2Bof%2Bwar%26FORM%3DV

Electrics have more torque

[Bob Riebe]

Super charged engines,  either mechanical or exhaust driven,  are called blown  - - because they have -- forced  air  blown --  into the intake manifolds, simple as that.

There are two modes of Centrifugal super charging, mechanically driven or exhaust driven, other than that they are identical; both suffer a lack of boost at low engine speeds.
Twin-screw super chargers are for the most part the best of Roots type and Centrifugal super charging; most efficient and full boost at all engine speeds.

There are some systems that employ both for increased thermal efficiency but complexity and cost are hugely increased.

[Dixie-Dude]

Tesla was already supposed to be out with the Cyber Truck.  They have ran into problems.  The windshield is so long they can't get windshield wipers to fit.  Also, there were complaints on the sloped sides of the truck bed.  Standard campers and caps and covers would not fit.  They are working out details and will be out in 2022.  It has a 500 mile range on a charge and comes in 2 or 4wd versions.  It is designed to compete head on with the F-150 in performance and price.  They are also proposing a bed cover that is solar power.  It would take about 2 days sunshine to charge with it, but the idea is for a camping trip that lasts more than two days so you can charge while you hunt, fish, hike or just camp.  It was to have power outlets to power your house if the power is out.  As long as you have a full charge. 

[Lloyd Smale]

Well ive been around cars and racing most of my life and ive never heard a turbo called a supercharger or called blown. As to which is more effiecient? Ill say this. A mechanical does make full boost lower in the rpm range then a centrifical but they create more heat doing it. Thats why you see most street racers using centrifical superchargers like a pro charger or a turbo. All you have to do is run a looser converter that flashes at around 3500rpm and your right in the full boost range for a centrifical.. Turbos are the most efficient. They too loose low end power but agian you can get around that with a proper converter. or do what some do. Use a smaller turbo that spools up fast and a second larger turbo that comes on higher up. Kind of acting like an old 4 barrel carb.  My old grand national had major turbo lag. New turbos you dont even feel it. Ive drove those ford eco boost trucks and youd never know there turbos driving them. Efficient? They dont use a single horse power from your motor to run. Just exhaust gas thats going out the pipe anyway. That right there is why you dont see many blown cars and trucks. Turbos just are more effecient because they dont sap power from the motor to produce boost and get much better fuel economy. Good example is a new challenger hellcat.  It puts out 717 hp but loses another 100 hp which is what that big blower sucks up so if it were turbo'd with the same 10psi boost it would put out north  of 800 hp. Now what your confusing the the its not a genric term to call them all blown. Its a generic term to call them all force induction. A blower is a blower and a turbo is a turbo. Ive never once heard a turbo car called blown till your post.

Super charged engines,  either mechanical or exhaust driven,  are called blown  - - because they have -- forced  air  blown --  into the intake manifolds, simple as that.

There are two modes of Centrifugal super charging, mechanically driven or exhaust driven, other than that they are identical; both suffer a lack of boost at low engine speeds.
Twin-screw super chargers are for the most part the best of Roots type and Centrifugal super charging; most efficient and full boost at all engine speeds.

There are some systems that employ both for increased thermal efficiency but complexity and cost are hugely increased.