Author Topic: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update  (Read 1354 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26944
  • Gender: Male
Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« on: March 26, 2022, 11:02:16 AM »
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) recently examined devices commonly known as “forced reset triggers” (FRTs) and has determined that some of them are “firearms” and “machineguns” as defined in the National Firearms Act (NFA), and “machineguns” as defined in the Gun Control Act (GCA).
 
These particular FRTs are being marketed as replacement triggers for AR-type firearms. Unlike traditional triggers and binary triggers (sometimes referred to generally as “FRTs”), the subject FRTs do not require shooters to pull and then subsequently release the trigger to fire a second shot. Instead, these FRTs utilize the firing cycle to eliminate the need for the shooter to release the trigger before a second shot is fired. By contrast, some after-market triggers have similar components but also incorporate a disconnector or similar feature to ensure that the trigger must be released before a second shot may be fired and may not be machineguns...
 
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Office of Enforcement Programs and Services
Office of Field Operations
Washington, DC 20226
www.atf.gov
March 22, 2022
OPEN LETTER TO ALL FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEES
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) recently examined devices
commonly known as “forced reset triggers” (FRTs) and has determined that some of them are
“firearms” and “machineguns” as defined in the National Firearms Act (NFA), and
“machineguns” as defined in the Gun Control Act (GCA).
These particular FRTs are being marketed as replacement triggers for AR-type firearms. Unlike
traditional triggers and binary triggers (sometimes referred to generally as “FRTs”), the subject
FRTs do not require shooters to pull and then subsequently release the trigger to fire a second
shot. Instead, these FRTs utilize the firing cycle to eliminate the need for the shooter to release
the trigger before a second shot is fired. By contrast, some after-market triggers have similar
components but also incorporate a disconnector or similar feature to ensure that the trigger must
be released before a second shot may be fired and may not be machineguns.
Both the NFA and GCA regulate machineguns. “Machinegun” is defined under 26 U.S.C.
§ 5845(b) and 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(23) as—
Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot,
automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the
trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part
designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and
intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of
parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or
under the control of a person. (Emphasis added.)
ATF’s examination found that some FRT devices allow a firearm to automatically expel more
than one shot with a single, continuous pull of the trigger. For this reason, ATF has concluded
that FRTs that function in this way are a combination of parts designed and intended for use in
converting a weapon into a machinegun, and hence, ATF has classified these devices as a
“machinegun” as defined by the NFA and GCA.
Accordingly, ATF’s position is that any FRT that allows a firearm to automatically expel more
than one shot with a single, continuous pull of the trigger is a “machinegun”, and is accordingly
subject to the GCA prohibitions regarding the possession, transfer, and transport of machineguns



OPEN LETTER TO ALL FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEES (cont.)

under 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(o) and 922(a)(4). They are also subject to registration, transfer, taxation,
and possession restrictions under the NFA. See 26 U.S.C. §§ 5841, 5861; 27 CFR 479.101.

Under 26 U.S.C. § 5871, any person who violates or fails to comply with the provisions of the
NFA may be fined up to $10,000 per violation and is subject to imprisonment for a term of up to
ten years. Further, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 5872, any machinegun possessed or transferred in
violation of the NFA is subject to seizure and forfeiture. Under 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(2), any
person who violates § 922(o) may be sent to prison for up to 10 years and fined up to $250,000
per person or $500,000 per organization.
Based on ATF’s determination that the FRTs that function as described above are
“machineguns” under the NFA and GCA, ATF intends to take appropriate remedial action with
respect to sellers and possessors of these devices. Current possessors of these devices are
encouraged to contact ATF for further guidance on how they may divest possession. If you are
uncertain whether the device you possess is a machinegun as defined by the GCA and NFA,
please contact your local ATF Field Office. You may consult the local ATF Office’s webpage
for office contact information.
Assistant Director
Enforcement Programs and Services
Assistant Director
Field Operations


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31324
  • Gender: Male
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2022, 11:19:07 AM »
  It would make more sense to leave the guns alone, and go after the terrorists and home boys who misuse the guns, and in most cases should not have them in the first place..

  ..But don't expect any kind of sense from the DC crowd..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online Mule 11

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5096
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2022, 11:25:40 AM »
  It would make more sense to leave the guns alone, and go after the terrorists and home boys who misuse the guns, and in most cases should not have them in the first place..

  ..But don't expect any kind of sense from the DC crowd..
Glad to see you have evolved your position on this subject.

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31324
  • Gender: Male
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2022, 03:37:24 PM »
  It would make more sense to leave the guns alone, and go after the terrorists and home boys who misuse the guns, and in most cases should not have them in the first place..

  ..But don't expect any kind of sense from the DC crowd..
Glad to see you have evolved your position on this subject.

   Evolved?  How..I have backed the 2nd amendment with support and $$, for about 65 years now.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online Mule 11

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5096
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2022, 03:45:37 PM »
I remember your concern over binary triggers. Butt of course you will never admit fudd errr fault.

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26944
  • Gender: Male
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2022, 04:43:31 PM »
I don't understand any of this stuff, binary triggers, bump stocks and whatever the heck this article of mine is about. I wouldn't give ya a dime for a million of them for my use.

But I'd defend your right to own and use them if that trips yer trigger.

I've never been into shooting fast, I'm more into one accurate shot properly placed.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31324
  • Gender: Male
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2022, 08:22:43 AM »
I remember your concern over binary triggers. Butt of course you will never admit fudd errr fault.

  I'm much like Bill..  Never into shooting a box of rounds of rapidly.  I last did that when I was in the military.  Even then a machine gun woild melt down oif you hung on the trigger..or thumb paddles in the case of Ma Deuce.

   So far as the discussion on binary triggers,.  If I recall rightly, I questioned their value, and said I wouldn't want one.  Besides I believed I mentioned then how my grandson showed me how to bump fire an  AR...something I probably would never bother doing.

   Just one of those "old timey" guys ..that believes more in "one shot one kill".
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online Mule 11

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5096
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2022, 09:18:33 AM »
I also believe in one well placed shot, although a 5.56 in full auto is pretty manageable and a lot of fun.

Offline Lloyd Smale

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18267
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2022, 10:38:31 PM »
ive got two binary triggers. one on a 10.5 in 556 and one on a smith ar15-22. I can about guarantee any naysayer one thing. Come to the range with me and ill put a smile on your face shooting them and to me thats what shooting is all about. As to effective. I sure wouldnt want to be in front of one 50 yards out. There controllable enough to tear your ass apart. Double taps on a target are EASY. Much more controllable then the bump stocks ever were. Now to me those were a gimic. only down side is you will go through a bunch of ammo because its addicting. Now as to this forced reset trigger. I dont know how much of this is fact and how much is not. You can go to Rare Breed Triggers. The major manufacture for forced reset triggers and you will find many letters from the batf saying there legal and just the fact they still are selling them means they must be legal. The minute they found bump stocks illegal it was agaisnt the law to sell them or even possess them. What i read is the legal battle the batf has with forced reset triggers is them using copyright infringement laws to skirt around the constitution to stop a company from making them that is suppose to be a close copy of the Rare Breed. They made that company stop production. Actually the forced reset triggers dont do much for me. I want a 3 position safety that allows me to shoot normal semi auto and the forced reset triggers are either on full tilt or safe and the only way to shoot singles is to carefully pull the trigger and cleanly let go of it. I think it would be a tough act if you ever had to actually use one to defend yourself
blue lives matter

Offline Lloyd Smale

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18267
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2022, 10:47:38 PM »
well LOTS of m16s made it through full auto fire without melting. Bump firing an ar and keep it on target is about impossible. two totaly different things. As to one shot one kill? Our military learned long ago that doesnt work well. It takes special training to get accurate fire under pressure and full auto capability is in about every soldiers hands. They have seen the advantage of putting down a field of fire or providing cover fire. Ill put it this way. If you were starving and you and 4 other people  had to take out the gunman and break through to a house to get food. One house has a gun with a 243 bolt and the other has a full auto m16. Which house are you going to try first. Cool thing is with a binary or a m16 you can flick the switch and have controled semi auto fire thats as accurate as that 243 if someone is out at 200 yards. The binary trigger doesnt take a thing away from the gun it just adds another tool in the belt. 
I remember your concern over binary triggers. Butt of course you will never admit fudd errr fault.

  I'm much like Bill..  Never into shooting a box of rounds of rapidly.  I last did that when I was in the military.  Even then a machine gun woild melt down oif you hung on the trigger..or thumb paddles in the case of Ma Deuce.

   So far as the discussion on binary triggers,.  If I recall rightly, I questioned their value, and said I wouldn't want one.  Besides I believed I mentioned then how my grandson showed me how to bump fire an  AR...something I probably would never bother doing.

   Just one of those "old timey" guys ..that believes more in "one shot one kill".
blue lives matter

Offline Ranger99

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9581
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2022, 03:16:50 PM »
JMHO-  it's my belief that an honest
law abiding citizen should be able to
buy any configuration of firearm they
can afford
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26944
  • Gender: Male
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2022, 05:42:23 PM »
Quote
Come to the range with me and ill put a smile on your face shooting them and to me thats what shooting is all about.

Your opinion only Lloyd. Shooting fast does NOT put a smile on my face it puts a frown. I've never cared for fast shooting and just do not see the lure of it. Might as well take a handful of ammo and throw it out into the field and be done with it.

Now mind you I don't object to you doing it and feel you should have the right to own any gun you want even full auto with no restrictions. But for me I have no use for such personally.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline Lloyd Smale

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18267
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2022, 10:07:59 PM »
ive never been about conserving ammo. Ive probably got as much ammo stashed as some army bases. Might be a bit of an exaggeration but ive got probably a 100 ammo cans full of ammo. Even at todays prices with my 22lr ar it cost less then a buck and a half to do a 25 round dump. Cant even buy a candy bar for that anymore. 9s are not much more to shoot with cast bullets. 556 even handloaded cost quite a bit more but i dont go out and dump 500 of them. Like i said those triggers still give you the option of semi auto fire too. but like you eluded too its not for everyone.

Some like shooting black powder and i think thats a messy pain in the ass. Tried some ruger old armys once. Bought two of them shot them maybe a half a dozen times and sold them. My buddy likes shooting his expensive single shots. To me its not a whole lot of fun. If i want to shoot traditional id much rather a lever gun. I used to shoot thosands of rounds of 454 475 and 500 linebaugh. Honestly i havent had them out in two years. Ive learned to detest working up loads for hunting guns. Ive spent SO MANY hours chasing a 1/4 inch and for what? Today when i go to the range i go to have fun. To me that means cheap 22s and 9s and 38s for the most part. Either plinking or working on self defense drills and occasionaly for old times i shoot a round or two of ppc. I personaly think its a ball to try to keep a whole mag on a target at 15-25 yards with that little smith ar22 in binary.

Wed have a much better army if they bought a bunch of them and let our soldiers learn how to shoot full auto effectively instead of just using them as noise makers. I went through coast guard and navy boot and in both we shot m16s and not once did they even let us shoot full auto. Dont know about the army or marines but if they do id bet they dont do much of it. In just a few months of shooting that binary trigger ive gone from the point if using it in combat it would be just spray and pray to the point that id about tear you in half with a 556 at even 50 yards.

 Yup it cost money. But other then things with motors shooting is about my only hobby these days. Some shake there heads at spending 25 bucks for a brick of ammo to blast up but dont think twice about some chrome do dad for there truck or harley. I got rid of my boat and for 25 buck with it it cost more in gas just to get to my fishing spot and another 25 to get home. Thats not even counting food, drinks, bait and the cost to buy it and maintain it. Look at just one of my linebaughs. They cost me 2k and would cost 3k today to build. I could buy a crap pile of 22lr for the cost of even one. Id bet about everyone does something or spends money on something that someone else thinks is foolish. but i can honestly say one thing. Nobody thats shot a mag out of that 22 didnt want to shoot another. Cant say the same about the 556 because even Lloyd aint laying 500 rounds of 556 on the table for someone else to shoot. But its all in what you consider fun. My wifes idea of spending money is her new 1000 dollar cell phone or her I watch doohickey. Me?? I dont even have a flip phone anymore. I think cell phones are a total waste of money and probably a worse addiction these days then heroin in this country. She could have kept her old one that by the way worked fine and bought 40 bricks of 22 shells or 10k of 223 ball bullets. I know which would have put a bigger smile on this guys face.
blue lives matter

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31324
  • Gender: Male
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2022, 09:58:34 AM »
Quote
Come to the range with me and ill put a smile on your face shooting them and to me thats what shooting is all about.

Your opinion only Lloyd. Shooting fast does NOT put a smile on my face it puts a frown. I've never cared for fast shooting and just do not see the lure of it. Might as well take a handful of ammo and throw it out into the field and be done with it.

Now mind you I don't object to you doing it and feel you should have the right to own any gun you want even full auto with no restrictions. But for me I have no use for such personally.

   ^^^THAT^^^ about sums it up for me too!   ...Different strokes..  I am bored by fireworks too. 
 

   Now my grandson, while he was in the USMC both in training and in Iraq, enjoyed firing full auto, blowing things up and firing guns to destruction..and has worked at that type of job ever since.

  Guns, grenades, gatlings and projectiles..plus a lot of stuff he can't talk about, that's his job.
   
   He still enjoys it...now at about 18 years into the job!  As I said, different strokes..

 One small note, he doesn't have to pay for the rounds he shoots, or the things he burns  or blows up !


If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline billy_56081

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8575
  • Gender: Male
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2022, 11:31:42 AM »
If the court deems them legal,  I will buy one.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Lloyd Smale

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18267
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2022, 10:38:21 PM »
you already can. Its forced reset triggers this is all about. You can buy a binary trigger that the batf already ruled was legal. Now that said it could surely change in the next 2 years. Like i said i wouldnt buy a  rare breed even if they do prove them legal. Not unless they add a three position safety like a binary trigger.
If the court deems them legal,  I will buy one.
blue lives matter

Online Mule 11

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5096
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2022, 02:04:29 AM »
The only thing that holds me back on the binary triggers is they are expensive. I’ll probably get one anyways.

Offline billy_56081

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8575
  • Gender: Male
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2022, 02:05:02 AM »
you already can. Its forced reset triggers this is all about. You can buy a binary trigger that the batf already ruled was legal. Now that said it could surely change in the next 2 years. Like i said i wouldnt buy a  rare breed even if they do prove them legal. Not unless they add a three position safety like a binary trigger.
If the court deems them legal,  I will buy one.

Don't want a binary,  I have enough stripped lowersi could build a dedicated one for this.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Lloyd Smale

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18267
Re: Forced Reset Trigger ATF Update
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2022, 02:52:23 AM »
yes they are. Ridiculously so. Not really much different then a 100 dollar after market trigger but they get 4 times that for them. FA does make one for around 250 if you dont mind the selector being in the trigger guard. I got the two ones i have on sale at palmetto for 300 bucks shipped. Still not really a bargain by any stretch but a 100 bucks cheaper then about anywhere else. But you can make it a bit cheaper by setting up one lower with a trigger and swapping it back and forth between your different ars
The only thing that holds me back on the binary triggers is they are expensive. I’ll probably get one anyways.
blue lives matter