Bullet for Micro Groove Marlin?

[Smiley]

I have 2 marlins I would like to load cast bullets for. One is a 35 Rem and a 444, they have micro groove barrels. I have read They won't shoot them (Cast) is this True? If not what moulds and bullet type would you recommend. I want to hunt with them..Thanks <

[jgalar]

cast lead is all I shoot out of my 30-30 micro groove.

[Veral]

If you do a bit of research you'll find that the only micro groove barrels Marlin makes are 22 RF and 30-30.  The rest have barrels cut for good lead performance.    However, I've found that the only reason micro groove 30-30's won't handle lead is that they are a bit rough.  Lapping them with the LBT lap kit turns them into the best rifling form I've ever used with cast.  The reason being the shallow rifling deforms bullets less than deeper notches, and grabbing the bullet at many points puts a good grip and spin on them.  

   I definately reccomend lapping the bores.

[BCB]

That's interesting...I have a Marlin Model 1984 in 357 Magnum caliber and it says MICRO GROOVE right on the barrel.  Dang sure looks like a MICRO GROOVE to me.  But then, maybe I don't know what a MICRO GROOVE is...BCB

[Veral]

The information I gave was given by Marlin a few years ago.  The guns are marked Micro groove,  but the rifling is in fact a modified micro groove which Marlin uses because they know their guns are popular with casters.

[Smiley]

Mine is marked also. It has 12 X 13 grooves and lands. What is a Micro groove? And will mine shoot Lead? I have your book and just ordered some more things but I don't want to spend a lot of time testing bullets. If after i do all you say in your book I will order a mould, But will it shoot or not?? Thanks Dennis

[Pat Marlin]

Smiley,

I'll jump in cause I'm currently reading Veral's book... on pages 33-36 Veral explains riflings and the myth about Micro Groove not shooting cast well being bunk, which I've always beleived as my .35 Rem Micro shoots cast extremely well.

Yours will also, with the right bullet and load.

Veral's book is intensive, and is going to take more than one read for me to grasp all the important details of this field.  It is all there, but you got to read... and I find it fascinating.

 

[BCB]

Smiley,
With the right powder and bullet they will shoot!  Tis true.  BUT, the only problem is the fact that sometimes to find that combination costs more than the rifle is worth!  I have a Model 1894 in 357 Magnum and I have tried to get it to shoot cast, and even jacketed bullets for that fact, for over 22 years.  If 3-inch groups at 100 yards are acceptable, then I guess I really didn’t have a problem!  I presently have nearly 70 different powders, 6 different bullet molds for the 357, dozens of different jacketed bullets, most every major manufacture’s primers, and brass till there is no tomorrow.  NEVER a shooter could I find until I tried a Keith style bullet weighing it at 165+ grains.  Only problem, can’t crimp it in the crimp groove ‘cause the OCL is too long to feed from the tube to the chamber!!!  I can shoot them singly but why own a lever gun?  Could alter the mechanism to possible allow it to feed the longer cartridge, but what problems might that cause down the road?  I have shortened some of the 357 Magnum cases so as to be able to crimp in the front groove, but I have yet to try these for accuracy.  It will be the LAST MICRO GROOVE rifle that I ever purchase.  And since it says “Micro Groove” on the barrel, I am lead to believe that it is a Micro Groove!  Hopefully you have a few friends who cast bullets and they will let you try some of their bullets before you begin to purchase molds—the $$$$ add-up quickly.  Good-luck…BCB

[Pat Marlin]

BCB,

I think 3" @ 100 for .357 mag out of a lever gun isn't that bad, really.

I always want to get sub-moa out of every thing, but  for that bench rest accuracy, that's pretty much bolt action territory.

Have you read Veral's book? I never knew there were so many possible details that would effect your firearm's accuracy with cast or jacketed bullets.

The first line of attack seems to be fire lapping to cut those groups down, but he says with nothing you do will fix a bad out of ballance bullet from a bad or marginal mold, size, casting proceedure, on and on.

...and he says quote,"I've found that after a little lapping, and with a good bullet design, you can do nothing wrong with lead in a Micro Groove barrel!"

Mine would not shoot off the shelf cartidges worth a damn, ever, but when I went to lead, groups immeadiately shrunk.

[Smiley]

3 Inch. Well, less see Veral talks about a pistol 1 inch at 100. That would make 3 inch in any rifle look bad. I can get 3 inchs doing nothing to a rifle just useing starting loads from most books. I hope all of this can give me at least 1 inch, consistently,  I think is the key. Verals book brings up a lot of points of concern, I plan on checking them all out, my 444 is of the old model, but shot very little maybe 70 rounds in the last 20 years. Bore slugged .4295 a little tight on each end, we'll see how she does. <

[Veral]

I would say 12 lands and grooves is indeed micro groove.  The info I read about Marlin using cut rifling in all but 30-30's and 22's I read perhaps around 1995, and it implied, to my mind, that a change had just been recently made.

   However, if your 12 groove barrel were in my ownership I'd be very happy with it.  - I might suggest that anyone purchasing a Marlin notice that the price of 30-30's tends to be quite a bit less than all the other chamberings, which have the newer rifling form, which some call Ballard type rifling.

    An inch at 100 yards with a levergun is possible but they have a lot of 'stuff' rattling around different than a good bolt gun.  I've always been content with 1 1/2, though some do an inch quite easily.  We americans, and I guess the world has been conditiioned all our lives to believe wheel guns aren't capable of accuracy, but nothing rattles or bends on them.  They are one solid piece from handle forward.  When they are precise inside, it is difficult to find a shooter who can learn their real potential accuracy.  I've received reports of people who get 1 inch quite consistently getting groups of 1/2 and 5/8 inch, and handled the targets.

   When a revolver is set up properly with well made LBT design bullets it will be the best trainer the pistol shooter ever had.  For the simple reason that if he pulls a shot a bullet hits where the sights were and he quickly learns what he is doing wrong.

[haroldclark]

Several days ago, I made the following post on another thread regarding Micro-Groove barrels with cast bullets.  I read Veral's book in the early 80s and purchased a fire-lapping compound from him back then.  All of my Marlin Micro-grooved barrels having 12 tiny grooves were fire lapped.  One

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:06 pm    Post subject: Micro-Groove Barrels    

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Hello guys,

I love the conversations about the Micro Grooved barrels not shooting lead bullets. The "They Brothers" will say they don’t shoot with cast bullets, but my Marlins don't know they are not supposed to shoot cast bullets.

A few editions back the Lyman Manual 46 or 47 declared that the accuracy load for the 30-30 and a 173 grain cast bullet like the 311041 with 20 grains of Reloader 7. I cast a bullet similar to that in a Saeco mold and I buy the near same bullet from Laser Cast (Oregon Trail Bullet Company in Oregon). Try that load for 1600 fps out of a 22 " Marlin. I size all my 30 caliber bullets to .310".   An older 30-30 Marlin with Micro-Grooves would put any number of shots into 1.5" all day long.  In the older gun, I used 9.5 grains of IMR SR 7625 with a Saeco #316 (150 grain gas checked bullet) bullet.

I have a database with 844 records of groups fired on paper targets. I go to the list of all such groups and sort them by the smallest groups at the top. A 444 Marlin with micro-grooved barrel with a 1 in 38 twist takes the three top spots for accuracy with 0.2", .375" and .375". I have records from 25-05 varmiter, 223 varmiter and deadly 308 Sako that suck hind tit to the Marlin. I shot 3,374 rounds through that barrel and all were cast bullets. Marlin replaced the barrel for nearly nothing in January of 2004.

My records on a very early micro-grooved Marlin 357 Magnum are not as good as the 444 Marlin, but 1.5" groups are common.  I have one group of 15 consecutive shots with a 353 Saeco 180 Gr FP 357 Cal plain base bullet with 13 gr of H4227 in 1.5".  Another group with 13.5 gr of H110 and a RCBS 200 Gr FP 357 Caliber gas checked bullet put 20 rounds into 1.5" at 100 yards.  All shots fired without cooling the barrel or fancy bench rest techniques.  Just Sandbags and an ammo can to rest on.



I hope I haven't bored you guys to death, but this is one of my favorite subjects.

Harold Clark
haroldclark@citlink.net

[Pat Marlin]

I load a RCBS 35-200-FN gas checked ww lead with Lee's alox and 11 grns of GreenDot for my Marlin 336 .35 Remington carbine built in 1972.

THis is now shooting 1" at 50 yards with an ashly ghost ring.  I haven't shot it much at 100 yet, but so far it's been accurate.

We had a small argon gas cylinder made into a hanging target out at 200 yards last weekend.  I grabbed my (scoped) Ruger No. 1 in 300 Winchester mag and nailed it with the second shot.  

No big deal, but then I wondered if I could hit it with the Marlin .35 and cast loads and open sights?  I aimed at the top of the cylinder, squeezed one off, and "Ding"... hit the puppy at 200 yards, with a witness.  Mind you that cylinder is only about 4" in diameter.

Nah, them Micro Grooves don't shoot cast worth a dam... :roll: