Smokeless under the gun?

[DEPUTY]

I was just glassing over some new state regs for the up comming 2004-05 hunting seasons now i will try to get what states they were again but it listed that the savage would not be legal to use do its capablity to not handle more than 60 grains of powder the state has set forth that if it cant use more 60 grains it is not going to be allowed! this along with a few others i will try to get my hands on these again as i just saw them at a glance it was someplace on the east cost and in the south! that the savage will not be allowed to shoot smokless powder!  they were some others that would not allow the use of the savage during the ml season either, if i remember right! has anybody else heard or seen this, also michigan will not allow it again this year

[RandyWakeman]

the savage would not be legal to use do its capablity to not handle more than 60 grains of powder the state has set forth that if it cant use more 60 grains it is not going to be allowed!

Not a problem-- Vihtavouri N120, Reloder 7, and Accurate Arms 2015 all keep you perfectly legal when used in the Savage 10ML-II.

Always quite happy to be of assistance in obeying the law.  :wink:

[1SHOT-1KILL]

I was just glassing over some new state regs for the up comming 2004-05 hunting seasons now i will try to get what states they were again but it listed that the savage would not be legal to use do its capablity to not handle more than 60 grains of powder the state has set forth that if it cant use more 60 grains it is not going to be allowed!

WTH!!!! :eek:

Like Randy stated, the Savage 10ML-II can most certainly be shot with loads of 60 grains or more, with the powders Randy listed plus IMR-4198, IMR-3031, H4198, N130, N133, AA 1680.  I now of one particular older gentleman that has been using 70 grains of IMR-4198 for years in one of our custom builts.  It is a very mild load recoil wise, performance wise it only pushing the 250gr XTP about 1,850-1,900 FPS, but works very well for him since all his shots are 75 yds and less.   This would a totally legal load for the Savage in every aspect and word of the law.

Deputy please do yourself a huge favor and re-read those regulations and laws.  Do these states actually have regulations and laws, specifically naming the Savage 10ML-II as illegal for use in their particular states.   If a state opts to be bass-ackwards and bans the use of nitrocellulose based smokeless powders, so be it.  But if it crosses the line and specifically list the Savage 10ML-II as illegal, then that state has just open pandora's lawsuit box.   The ONLY way such a ban could and would be legal is if they banned ALL in-lines and/or 209 ignition in-lines.    

But to have such an undefendable and simply asinine law banning the Savage and allow the T/C Encore or Omega, Knight Disc, or your Ultimate Firearms, is like that's particular state's DMV allowing Fords and Chevy's, Dodge's, GMC's, Cadillac's, Buicks', etc.,  only to use the public streets and highways and banning Toyota's and Honda's.  Another example of the sheer stupidity of such laws would in states were it is shotguns only for the regular gun season, would be that Rem. 870's & 1100's, Browning BPS's & A-5's, Win. 1300's & 1400's, Mossberg 500's & 835's are all perfectly legal but,  Benelli Black Eagle isn't.

[DEPUTY]

i will re check these but basically what theyare saying is no smokeless in ml period

[Oldsnow]

Deputy maybe this will jog your memory, read the last paragraph.

The use of smokeless powder in a muzzleloader is illegal in Delaware and the Division of Fish and Wildlife reminds hunters to never use modern smokeless powder in a muzzleloading firearm. The use of smokeless powder in a muzzleloader is not only illegal, it is very unsafe. That safety message may be jeopardized by another message being created among the shooting public as the result of a major firearms manufacturer’s introduction and marketing of a "Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader." Even though this particular gun may be safe, as its producer claims, the promotion of the gun and concept has already created and will continue to create, confusion among shooters. This confusion could result in serious injury or death.Because the muzzleloader deer season will open soon on Oct. 7, hunters and shooters need to be aware of the extra and unique safety precautions associated with the use of muzzle loading firearms: Almost all of the muzzleloaders in existence today are "Black Powder Only Muzzleloaders. This means that the only safe propellants for use in these guns are black powder or an approved black powder substitute such as Pyrodex. The use of the smokeless powder muzzleloader is only legal to use if it is loaded with black powder, and is illegal if it is loaded with smokeless powder.The warning that has been in effect for the last 100 years remains valid today: Using any quantity of modern smokeless powder in muzzle loading guns can result in severe injury or death to both the shooter and/or bystanders.

  Connecticut Valley Arms, a manufacturer of muzzleloader rifles, provided information for this release to address concerns of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute, a product research and safety group.

[RandyWakeman]

Connecticut Valley Arms, a manufacturer of muzzleloader rifles, provided information for this release to address concerns of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute, a product research and safety group.

This is history repeating itself, coming from a company that apparently considers safety "proprietary," is not a member of SAAMI, and has been there before. http://www.chuckhawks.com/instant_slamification.htm

Is there any muzzleloading company in history that has put more people in the hospital than CVA? http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm

[1SHOT-1KILL]

i will re check these but basically what theyare saying is no smokeless in ml period

Nothing hard, what so ever, to believe about that at all.  Sounds like Deputy is talking about the state of Virginia.   You are exactly right, in that different states have differents regs and laws.  Here in NC, we can use smokeless, so there for, I do.  What I was implying was too the use of the Savage 10ML-II.  Did VA specifically state that the Savage 10ML-II illegal to use in that state or was it that the use of smokeless powder illegal to use in that state.  I have no hurt burn what so ever if the use of smokeless is illegal in VA, MS, or any other state.  But if that state specifically names the Savage 10ML-II as illegal for use in that state, then that is what I have a problem with.  As you may or may know, the Savage 10ML-II can use BP, Pyrodex, T-7, or any of the other BP substitutes.  Which would make the Savage 10ML-II just as legal as any other 209 ignition inline.  Would it not?

[RandyWakeman]

that the savage would not be legal to use do its capablity to not handle more than 60 grains of powder the state

It is not the "Savage" issue being referred to at all, is it? It is the same old smokeless issue that people don't care to understand-- while they pay $60 a pound for their Triple 7 pellets.

There are more than a few Savage owners that shoot synthetic flammable solids like Pyrodex or Triple 7 pellets as well. It changes nothing, as smokeless is a far more a traditional "BP substitute" than a pellet-- by over 100 years.

[oneshotonekill]

Smokeless powder is prohibited in all seasons in ML's in NJ.

[RandyWakeman]

In NJ, it seems ALL firearm ownership is "under the gun." One of the poster states for ignoring the 2nd Amendment.

[oneshotonekill]

Randy,
You got that right.  NJ is one of the only states in the country that classifies ML's as firearms and requires NICS checks for each one sold.  To go one step farther all paintball guns, air rifles, bb guns, flare guns,  etc are considered firearms.  In addition to the NICS check you need a firearms purchasing permit and if you plan to buy a handgun including black powder, air powered (pellet/bb, or paintball) flare, etc you need a handgun permit for each one.  You can only get 3 handgun permits at one time and they are only valid for 90 days.  To get a handgun permit you must fill out an application at a police department, submit info on 3 references that will be contacted and have to report back in order for your permit to be issued and you must get fingerprinted.  So no matter how many times they have run your background check, fingerprinted you, or contacted references, it is the same process each time you want a permit.

[simonkenton]

New Jersey:
Submit to police interrogation, fingerprint, permit expires in 90 days and must be renewed, criminal background check....
Thomas Jefferson would be appalled, but, somewhere, Josef Stallin is smiling.

[sabotloader]

I thought I posted this once but I will try again...

IDAHO

In Idaho no smokeless, which is the way it should be, during the muzzleloading seasons, but during the regular season which is most of the season you could use it if you want to.  Can't figure out why though, if you are going to use smokless why not just go 30-30, 32, 308 and if you want just a single shot put only one bullet in that's all it takes anyway.

No scopes, No 209's - I would like a scope and I would prefer the 209's but that is the rule.

Muzzleloader-Only Season
Any person hunting in a Muzzleloader-only season,
including controlled hunts and traditional hunts, must have
in possession their license with muzzleloader permit
validation.
During a Muzzleloader-only season, it is illegal to
pursue or kill a big game animal with any firearm,
muzzleloading pistol, or weapon other than a muzzleloading
rifle or musket.
In addition, the muzzleloading rifle or musket must be:
• At least .45 caliber for deer, antelope, or mountain lion
and .50 caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain
goat, or black bear.
• Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
• Equipped with only open or peep sights.
• Loaded only with black powder, Pyrodex, or synthetic
black powder.
• Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
• Loaded with a projectile of at least .428 caliber.
• Equipped only with a flint, percussion cap or musket
cap.

Traditional Muzzleloader Season
During a traditional muzzleloader only season, in
addition to restrictions noted above under Muzzleloader
and Muzzleloader-only, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big
game animal with any firearm other than a muzzleloading
rifle or musket with an exposed hammer that pivots, and:
• Is loaded only with loose black powder or Pyrodex.
• Is loaded only with a patched round ball projectile.

[RandyWakeman]

which is the way it should be,

That's one theory. There are those that feel that sabots are "not the way it should be," either.

[sabotloader]

point - counterpoint

Yep! you are right.  I forgot about that, but they work so well.  Plus, I am not saying it (smokeless) should never be used, but we have moved the term already from "Black Powder Hunting" to "Muzzleloading" to cover synthetics or substututes, wonder what they will call the next one and then at some point just give up and go back to one big hunting season.

Idaho's idea of two seasons might be an answer - a muzzleloading season and a traditional season, but it really seems we are moving closer to regular rifles... and doesn't the "Ultimate" get us even closer?

[RandyWakeman]

point - counterpoint

Plus, I am not saying it (smokeless) should never be used, but we have moved the term already from "Black Powder Hunting" to "Muzzleloading" to cover synthetics or substututes, wonder what they will call the next one and then at some point just give up and go back to one big hunting season.

The problematic area is the "we" area. "We" collectively did no such labeling. The same old story, ask 100 people what muzzleloading is to them, you'll get 100 different answers. And they are all quite right, of course-- as the answer is completely subjective. I remember being lectured back in 1977 because my new motorcycle at the time had an electric starter. "Real" motorcycles needed to be kick-started was the view some held at the time. If you were so wimpy as to not HAVE to kick it to start it, you weren't "really" a biker-- you were cheating.

Either way, you are riding, as far as I'm concerned. I also didn't weep uncontrollably when I no longer needed a spoke wrench, and bought a bike without tube tires. Some rejected that as well, my "Comstar" wheels were cheating to a few people as well-- apparently. I was happy, though, because I was just riding.

The days of a blackpowder performance substitute are long, long gone. Nobody needs to hunt at all to survive these days, it is a sport, a hobby, recreation, and a passion. Few that muzzleload can make the claim that they do so for subsistence reasons. Few deer standing at 100 yards can live on the difference between being hit with a projectile that was pushed by "real blackpowder," smokeless powder, or the stuff that need not be measured at all called pellets.

Either way, you are still hunting.

[sabotloader]

Then why have a muzzle loading season? Just have a hunting season.  Now, I am not saying that to be smart either.  But it is confusing me, to have a special season but extend the limits of that season using a better gun than a 30-30. 32, 308.  Just call it hunting season and go get them.

I think this thought is entering the thoughts of several game managers.  I use an inline, but if they outlawed the inline, I would go back to a sidelock for that particular part of the season.  A lot of what is happening out there is driven by economics not what might be best for the hunter and the big game population.

[RandyWakeman]

Then why have a muzzle loading season? Just have a hunting season.  

In the case of Illinois, it offers sales of an additional tag-- long after bow season, and the "general firearms season." It is no early season of privilege-- so the "why" seems to be only to sell a few more weekend tags, that are issued only by county. No universal answer there.

[Stan M.]

In Virginia the law now states that: You must use a charge of at least  50gr. of black powder or black powder equivalent. It use to just have must use black powder or black powder equivalent. I guess they want you to use a charge that will be strong enough for a clean kill. We use to could only use a lead projectile but that changed.
 I checked into this a years ago as soon as I first heard of the distance and accuracy a friend was getting down in NC. with his Savage. Well just one of many of VA.'s weird laws.
Stan