Lever actions and accidental discharges

[Questor]

My son just took his hunter safety class and I sat in for the lecture on gun handling. Most of that lecture was on the inherent danger of handling lever action rifles, and how accidental discharges are so common. This is probably because I live in the East and lever action and pump rifles are populare for deer hunting.  

I don't have a lot of experience with lever actions, but I have never seen them as dangerous, after learning to load and unload, and to manage the hammer.  

What has your experience been? Do you know of a lot of accidental discharges with lever guns? How, as a lever enthusiast, do you think they compare with the safety of other designs.  And finally, why do you think so much emphasis was placed on the supposed hazards of the lever action?

Thanks. I look forward to your answer.

[Mikey]

Questor asked:  What has your experience been? Do you know of a lot of accidental discharges with lever guns? How, as a lever enthusiast, do you think they compare with the safety of other designs. And finally, why do you think so much emphasis was placed on the supposed hazards of the lever action?

Questor, I have five Winchester lever actions and have owned Marlins and have never had an accidental discharge nor have I heard of anyone I know with a lever having an accidental discharge.  I do not, in any way, believe lever actions are less safe or more prone to accidental discharges than any other type of action.

As to comparative safety - with the older Winchesters - I forget if the Marlins have a half-cock safety - you have a half cock safety and you should get to know how to properly work that action - possibly that is where the idea of accidental discharges comes from.  With the newer Winchesters there is a cross-bolt safety that works well to prevent those accidents.  I think the newer Marlins also incorporate that type of safety.
I do not believe the lever action is any 'less safe' than any other type of action.  

As to that particular safety instructor - who knows.  I have sat in on and monitored a number of hunter safety/handgun safety courses and the amount of inaccurate information put out to students is incredible.  I once knew a fella who would chamber a round in his Winchester 30-30 and leave the hammer fully cocked back and carry the thing around in the woods with the lever hanging part way down.  When he wanted to shoot all he had to do was quietly close the lever to depress the lever safety and fire.  It was perfectly safe - the Winchesters won't fire unless the lever is fully closed and that is part of the safety design.  

I have known of new semi-autos to slam fire and bolts to do the same.  I like the lever actions because of the safety design built into the levering system - unless it is fully closed the lever will not depress the safety button or tang or whatever it is and the rifle will not fire.

I sure hope this helps but I wll gladly await the flood of comments (and better advice, possibly) to come.  It should hopefully tell me something I don't know.  Mikey.

[Thomas Krupinski]

It was perfectly safe - the Winchesters won't fire unless the lever is fully closed and that is part of the safety design.

Don't bet the farm on it?  I have run across a couple of "old" Winchesters that were so worn out that would.  Not supposed to, but they did.

I think I should comment here on how much use had seen those two old 94's that were state property and in use for tower duty at the Arizona State Prison.  

This was about 30 years ago when I ran acros them in use and I guess they had been up there about 30 to 40 years, maybe longer, when I tested them.  After I reported it they were sent in for repair.  Now that's unloading and loading with every shift change three times a day, day in and day out, plus whenever someone just had nothing better to do and was bored.  So they were pretty well worn.  

Now I believe all the old Winchester 94's and M1 Carbines that used to be up there have all been replaced quite a while ago with more modern weapons.

[John Y Cannuck]

I have seen an accidental discharge on a Marlin, while the guy was lowering the hammer to half cock, and he had gloves on. He was talking, and thus distracted.
Myself, I have hunted with lever guns for more than thirty years, and never had an AD. ADs on lever guns, are operator error, not gun fault IMO.

[RIFLERANGER]

ADs on lever guns, are operator error, not gun fault IMO.

B-I-N-G-O !!!

I own nearly 2 dozen lever guns, Winnies, Savages, and mostly Marlins.  I have never had nor known anyone to have this problem.
Half cock safeties work fine, cross bolt safeties are retard proof.
Ranger

[gadgetman]

I know that this thread is about the lever gun's inherent (or not) unsafe design but I will throw in my 2 cents about my near death experience. When I was about 10, I was out in the woods with a 15 yr old neighbor kid (he grew up to be a real D.A. adult). He had a Win 94 30-30. When it jammed, he put the butt on the ground, knelt down and used the heel of his hand to force the lever shut by striking it several times. On the last strike it went off; it was pointed about 3 inches to the side of my face. I got powder burns on my cheek and was deaf for the rest of the day. He got his butt tore up and things were never the same as far as the trust that his dad had for him.
I still remember it like it was a year ago (actually 37 yrs ago). It taught me to be aware of not only where my muzzle in pointing, but also the other guy's. I know that the accident was not the fault of the gun. It is just an object that can malfunction, or work properly. It is always the person behind the gun that is not acting safely in being prepared for malfunctions. I am a firm believer that guns do not kill people: people kill people whether it is a malfunction or on purpose.
And yes, I am that guy at the hunting camp and at the skeet range that is always preaching about gun safety. Killing or maiming one of my hunting/shooting buddies is a nightmare I would never wake up from. Happy Hunting and be safe, Gary

[jae]

The Winchester 94 with half cock safety is one of the safest gun around. this has alway been my beef with the cross bolt safety. A fix for a problem that never existed. To make a gun fool proof we must first make sure that fools do not have access to machinery they can not comprehend. John

[MSP Ret]

I have both Marlin and Winchester lever guns and have had some of them for a long, long time. My sons first centerfire was a Marlin lever 336 which he still has. I am also a hunter safety instructor  with 15 years behind me and was in Law enforcement for 32+ years. Most of that time we had Winchester 30-30's (and other weapons, Shotguns, Garands, 37MM Lake Erie Gas Guns, and some Thompsons) at every barracks I was assigned to which troopers could take out on patrol whenever THEY felt they needed them. I have NEVER had or been advised of an accidental discharge of a lever gun. Perhaps it was good training or luck, but as was earlier stated most AD's are operator error and they try to blame the gun....<><.... :grin:

[leverfan]

My first hunting rifle, and most of my centerfire rifles since then, have all been lever guns.  They're just as safe as the operator makes them.  I've never seen an accidental discharge with a lever gun, but I only shoot or hunt with close, trusted friends and family.

[Kragman71]

I only have two leverguns of my own,but have been around them for many years.
I can't recall any of unwanted discharges that have been posted here.
But I do know that a round can stay inside the magazine after the lever has been cycled.My Hunting Buddy,a Marlin Man,who bought his model36(not 336)new,always preached about visually checking the magazine after you empty it.
My Savage 99 left a round in the magazine the last time at the range.(the O.L. may have been too long for that bullet).
Frank

[Bob the Cynic]

In twenty plus years of hunting with lever actions I have never had an accidental discharge.  I fail to see how a lever action is any less safe than any other type of action.  Barring mechanical failure of some sort any "accidental discharge" is going to be operator error.  As a result any gun, with any type of action is going to be dangerous if an idiot is operating it.

[papajohn428]

If anything, I would consider the lever-action the safest of the action types, because it is so easy to visually check its status.  You can also tell just by feel where the hammer is, without having to take your eyes off the game or target.  Why the idiot lawyers decided a levergun needs a safety is totally beyond me.  I'm surprised they haven't found a way to put a safety on a hammer yet.   :roll:
Jeff Cooper wrote twenty years ago about how some court had decided that the 1894 Winchester was an inherently unsafe design....in order to award some moron who had misused it a lot of money.  Cooper's comment was that the rifle might be unsafe........but so are campfires and barbed wire and hammers and sourdough bisquits, if used improperly!
If leverguns need cross-bolt safeties, then what about single-action revolvers?  My gawd, all you have to do is cock them, and they're ready to fire!  How safe is that?  And double-action revolvers don't even have to be cocked first.  Oh, the Humanity!
Shakespeare was right!   :wink:

PJ

[Graybeard]

I hate to discuss the "inherent" anything of a gun. Whether it be accuracy or safety or any other inherent characteristic.

I have never personally had a lever gun go off accidentally and do not know anyone personally who has told me of such happening.

BUT guns are by design and intent dangerous and hunting guns are intended to KILL. Yeah let's not beat around the bush, the sole purpose of a hunting rifle is to KILL. Safety devices are mechanical and thus from time to time are going to fail.

I'd much rather be hunting with a pardner who is knowledgeable in gun safety and whom I trust using a rifle with no mechanical safety or one with a loaded chamber and the safety OFF than to trust a person I do not know or who I know to be an unsafe gun handler with an "unloaded" gun or one with safety on.

The ONLY safety that matters is the one between the ears of the fellow or gal holding the gun. All others are of no importance. If a person is a safe gun handler they will NEVER EVER let that muzzle cover anything they would not be willing to KILL. So even if it goes off no harm will be done other than the embarrassment it might cause to have it go off at an inappropriate time. If on the other hand the person is NOT a safe gun handler the muzzle is gonna frequently be covering something they really wouldn't want to KILL and eventually if you're around such a person long enough then the gun will go off when it shouldn't. Will it be when pointed at something it shouldn't? I don't want to find out myself.

So I do not stay around anyone I feel is an unsafe gun handler. First time I see unsafe gun handling practice I'll call them on it and be gone as soon as possible from their prescence. I've packed up on public ranges and left without firing a shot for just such a reason. Now I don't even go to public ranges anymore. The first time I see the muzzle of your gun pointed my way is the last time I see it.

GB

[Robert357]

I have a Marlin 336 and a Winchester 22 lever action.  I consider them "safe."  I have never had an AD in a lever action.  I came close once in a bolt action 22 where the safety did not work.

However, I consider a magazine with a floorplate or clip to be safer to unload than a rifle where you need to unload it by cyling rounds through the chamber in close proximity to a firing pin.

I consider a rifle that you "engage the safety" by pulling the trigger and slowly lowering the hammer half way down with a live round in the chamber as less safe than a rife where you flip a lug or push a button and keep your fingers completely away from the trigger.

While I like my lever action rifles, I do pause at the end of the hunt or at day when I am through shooting and it is time to engage the safety and/or unload them.

[leverfan]

However, I consider a magazine with a floorplate or clip to be safer to unload than a rifle where you need to unload it by cyling rounds through the chamber in close proximity to a firing pin.

I consider a rifle that you "engage the safety" by pulling the trigger and slowly lowering the hammer half way down with a live round in the chamber as less safe than a rife where you flip a lug or push a button and keep your fingers completely away from the trigger.

To address your first concern, it is quite easy, in my experience, to unload a lever gun through the loading gate.  Just ease a finger tip in there, and a cartridge pops part way out, ready to be grabbed.  Or, in the case of the Winchester 88, and a few others, drop the box magazine out, if you want to avoid the issue completely.

As far as letting the hammer down, that's why my dad started me on an 88 instead of his old 94.  Later, he taught me how to be extra safe while lowering the hammer on the 94, which has grown a little slick over the past century of use.

If a right handed person gets in the habit of putting their left thumb between the hammer and firing pin while lowering the hammer, two things are accomplished:

1.  The hammer cannot set off a round, even if it slips.

2.  If the hammer slips even once, the owner of the thumped thumb will never let it slip again.

[SLAVAGE]

i am turning 29 this year an dad got me a marlin oops well then it was glenfield 336 30-30 win, i've using it till i was 24 thats16 years never once had a prob, an the one i have is only half cocked safety as long as you are paying attention a take your time nothing will happen, now would i give this to my little girl when she is old enough to shoot yes but i have a old savage 340 bolt action layen in the back of the safe thats been waiting for a 7-30 waters barrel to be made for it, all so it really depends on if you have a gun yet  if not the price for a lever an bolt are a few dollars different that is at least i am from pittsburgh an at the seasions coming around u can get a marlin 30-30 with scope for about $300 bolt action savage 110 in 270 or 30-06 with scope an ""drop"" mag $350 so if a lever gun is that much of a worry skip it an get a midgrade bolt gun

dave

[John Y Cannuck]

To unload an 1894 Winchester, and others of similar design.

Point in a safe direction, open the action, start to close it until the shell pops free of the guides. Roll the action to the side to drop the cartridge into your hand. Repeat.
Sounds complicated, but it's really easy, safe, and reasonably fast.

[Robert357]

Dear leverfan;

Thank you for your suggested method of unloading and placing on safety.  Your father taught you well.

Unfortunately most people in this day and age read the "Owners Manual" that comes with the firearm!  That is in our litiguous society the prime source of "information" on the correct operation of a particular firearm.

I would like to call you attention to what the owners manual furnished with a Win Mod 94 has to say.  If you don't believe me, feel free to check it out at
http://www.winchester-guns.com/manuals/02227_wfa_94_om_s.pdf

I will stand by my earlier comments about "more safe" and "less safe."

From owners manual page 19 on unloading.....

"Proceed to operate the finger lever in the same manner transfering all the remaining cartridges from the magazine to the chamber and then eject them."

From the owners manual page 13 on lowering the hammer....
"Get a stable grip on your rifle with your hand in the shotting position.  Place your thumb on the hammer and firmly hold the hammer back slightly with you thumb.

While holding the hammer back with your thumb, apply just enough pressure on the trigger to release the hammer from the full-cock position (Figure 5A).  Immediatly remove your finger from the trigger and slowly and carefully allow the hammer to lower into the rebound postion (Figure 5B)."

(I decided to add some more information to this post) I also checked out Steve's page for his list of owners manuals.
http://stevespages.com/pdf/marlin_18941894c.pdf

page 1 of the Marlin 1894 manual states.......

"3.  The Half Cock position serves as the safety and should be used whenever you are not firing.  The hammer may be brought from Full Cock to the Half Cock position with your thumb.  Keep your thumb on the hammer as you pull the trigger.  As soon as you feel the hammer exerting forward pressur against your thumb, remove your finger from the trigger and ease the hammer slowly forward to the Half Cock position (See C&D)...."

from the Marlin manual page 2 of 4......

"How to Unload
Keeping your fingers away from the trigger, and with the gun pointed in a safe direction, maually eject all cartridges by operating the lever back and forth, until you are sure the chamber and magazine are empty (See G).  The lever must be completely closed and then fully opened to insure proper feeding and ejecting of all cartridges."

Again, in the attempt to avoid being flamed.  I like my two lever action rifles.  I think that they are "safe."  However, I do feel that some other kinds of features found on other rifles are "more safe."

While we can figure out all kinds of ways to compensate for basic design features, that may not be how the "typical owner" operates the rifle.  Maybe that is why lever actions are a concern in hunter safety classes.  There are other rifles I would be more concerned about, but that is probably a different thread in a different forum.

[John Y Cannuck]

My father was a bolt gun man.

While I have seen that text in the owners manuals, Owners manuals are not fool proof.
The proceedure I described is the same proceedure followed by many bolt guns with blind magazines. No big deal.
IMO it is a much safer method than they describe in the manual.