The "need" for a big bore in Africa

[JJHACK]

I honestly don't see the need for a 458 Lott or similiar rifle unless you work in Africa as a PH or with other big dangerous game as in Alaska or Russia. It's a whole lot of gun with a very limited or narrow practical use. The recoil on a well made gun which fits good is manageable but still quite a stiff jolt to the body. It's a Heavy gun and really not a practical "Hunting" rifle in my opinion.

I am a PH in Africa and was also in Alaska Seasonally for about 20 years. I never used the Lott I have in Alaska and likely never will. The 375HH is plenty for that duty. The 375HH was my choice in Africa for my work until 4 years ago when I had the Lott made up on the Model 70 CRF action. The 375HH was good enough for most situations but the lott with the short barrel and fixed Peep sights was a better insurance policy for a PH. The key here is you don't need a backup rifle to hunt with. In Alaska or Africa you will have a guide or PH that packs the big bore for rare problem that might occur.

When I hunt for myself I will use the 375HH. I suppose there are a few odd situations where I might use the 458 only because I have it already. I would certainly not buy one for any big game or dangerous game hunt if I already had a 375HH. There may be a bit of "romance" in owning a big bore African rifle. However I would rather have the "romance" of an additional 4-5 animals on my safari with the money instead of the spending that money on a very limited use specialty rifle.

It's always interesting to me to see the people who hunt as recreational sportsman wanting the big bore PH rifles to hunt with. I can't even count how many times I have had clients with bigger rifles then any of the PH's in camp were packing. Why these once or twice a lifetime African hunter/ sportsman must have a giant dragon slaying big bore is beyond me. Few shoot them well and most have put so much money into the gun for a few animals or maybe even a single buffalo.

Nothing beats a scope sighted 375HH with a 300 grain bonded core bullet on big dangerous game for a visiting sportsman. One well placed shot with a 375HH will kill anything alive quick and easy. The Barnes X and the Swift Aframe will penetrate more then enough on any buffalo and Solids will brain a Rhino, elephant, or Hippo just as quick as you please. I have never had a recreational hunter with a 458 or bigger able to make a brain shot on a croc or hippo in a river. Yet I have no problem getting the same guy with a scope sighted 375HH to shoot like a champ.

Everyone makes there own choices and if somebody wants to buy a big bore for any reason at all,....... it's their money. I'm simply suggesting (with many years experience) hunting big dangerous game, you don't need to have this kind of gun to hunt in Africa or Alsaka. You also might be better off without one of these big bore cannons!

[akpls]

JJ, what would you suggest for Kudu in Namibia?  The terrain appears to resemble parts of West Texas I've been to.  I'm able to choose from a large range of calibers from .257 Roberts (too small?) all the way up to .450 Marlin (too big?).  I handload for everything I have and can shoot big and small equally well.  Right now I'm leaning towards my .338WM just because of the possible range, but am also considering the 30-06.  I'm not sure just how tough a kudu is.  When my PH returns next month I'll be discussing all this with him, but thought I'd get a head start on info.

akpls

[JJHACK]

Of all the bigger plains animals in Africa the kudu is the easiest to kill. They don't have the will to live that most of the other equal size game has.  Rmemeber to that the Kudu is a brush inhabitant not an open grassland animal. Most animals that live in the open and get shot there will make every effort to get into the thickest bush they can find. Since Kudu are already in that level of Bush they may seem to be less "tough" but are already where they want to be. Killed in the open( where I don't know) they too would likely seem tough and run a long way to the bush.

See what your PH says. If he's got much experience in the hunting game, he will make a similiar comment that a Kudu is not as tough as waterbuck, wildebeast. zeba or any of the other similiar sized game. That's not to say a poor shot will kill one, but a perfect shot will usually crumple them or limit their travel.

Namiba is not like hunting "Africa" as it's wide open desert country with rolling sandy hills of grass and limited brush habitat. Hunting Namibia is more like hunting Saskatchewan, eastern Wyoming, Eastern Colorado etc.  Where the bushveld is very think brush like Texas hill country or Mainland Alaska. Short shots are the norm there.

If I were leaving for Namiba I would likely choose a 300 weatherby or 300HH magnum as a first choice. After that the 338, 30/06 etc would be OK. I don't believe in using sub .308 diameter bullets in Africa becasue they don't give a blood trail on African game or in herd conditions.  Shoot a 300 weatherby with 200 grain bullets and you will have an easy 350 yards to hit the game easily. With a 338 I would likely shoot a 250 grain or less bullet and zero for 300 yards. Namiba can have long shooting in the wide open country.

There are some areas with Bush and maybe a bit closer shooting. Best you check with your outfitter and PH before you do what I'm telling you. They know their area and habitat and will suggest the right tool for the job!

[500grains]

I disagree with JJHACK on this one.

When I hunt, I do not want the PH to fire a shot.  His job is to find the game and my job is to shoot it.  If the PH fires a shot, then either I have not done my job or the PH is a little too quick on the trigger.  So I insist on carrying both the client rifle and backup rifle all in one.  That means I will not be going after dangerous game with anything less than a .458 bullet.  And if I need to shoot a kudu with it, that's fine.  I can shoot my 458 lott and 470 capstick very accurately and would not be hampered taking them after plains game out to 200 yards.

[Lawdog]

500grains,

Better make darn sure that your wishes are understood by your PH WELL in advance.  I have read about PH's that routinely fire a back up shot right after the client fires his shot, just to be safe.  I think if I were going after Elephant, Hippo, Rhino or such then I would bring my .450 Rigby.  For lesser sized dangerous game I believe a well placed 300 gr. bullet out of my .375 Weatherby or a 400 gr. bullet out of my .416 Rigby will get the job done.  Lawdog
 

[JJHACK]

It's far easier to place an accurate shot with a 375HH and a 300 grain bullet using a scope then it is to shoot a 458 or bigger with open sights. Regardless of caliber and cartridge a poorly placed shot will not help your cause.

I have never seen a 375hh with a 300 grain bullet fail to decide matters quickly on any of the big five shot with it. I have seen very few recreational sportsman shoot any gun larger then that very well.  Guns bigger then a 375HH are for professionals with a lot of shooting experience or the rare recreational sportsman who does the same. The average "joe" going to Africa for one of the big four need not spend all that money on a gun he cannot shoot frequently and will probably never again shoot when he returns home. I have a personal friend who has taken over 80 buffalo and a dozen elephant with a 375HH and he is still hunting big game every year in Africa. He has never lost an animal and never had one give much of a struggle after being hit. The 375HH is plenty of gun if you place your bullets right.  

Placing the bullets "right" is by a large margin easier with the scoped 375 then anything larger.  I too own a 458 Lott custom made and fitted to me by a well know expert gunssmith. However when I hunt for myself I will pack the 375HH 99.9% of the time in Africa. The 458 Lott is a top choice as insurance but it's not the true balanced hunting package that a scoped 375HH is.

90% of the debate is agreed upon with bullet placement being the priority. We are only then debating the remaining 10% of the argument. Since a 300 grain solid bullet will exit a buffalo from nearly any angle, and penetrate well through the skull of an elephant, then the issue has even been made more narrow!

As far as PH's shooting game without question in non-life threatening situations you guys need to get some better references! I have worked a whole bunch of hunts in my life with dozens of top PHs from across Southern Africa.  Not a single one of us is ging to shoot our clients game. The very last thing we want is to find the only bullet in the animal is from our gun!  All of us will shoot to protect the people including trackers in any situation. Beyond that its the job of the client to bring the hunt to a successful conslusion. Should a client ask for assistance all of us will help, but not a single one of the PH's working for me will shoot our clients game without due cause.

[500grains]

500grains,

Better make darn sure that your wishes are understood by your PH WELL in advance.  I have read about PH's that routinely fire a back up shot right after the client fires his shot, just to be safe.  
 

1. I make sure that the PH and I have the same philosophy before booking.  I was about to book elephant and buffalo with one company when I asked about their policy on the PH shooting.   The owner said something like, "We are not going to track your buffalo all over the place, so if it does not drop, we will put some shots in it."  Wanna guess whether I booked a hunt there?

2.  I have heard a lot about PH's in RSA shooting immediately after the client for "backup".  I have also heard some funny stories about PH's who shot first and ended up buying the game themselves.   Top level PH's don't do that.

[Lawdog]

500grains,

1. I make sure that the PH and I have the same philosophy before booking. I was about to book elephant and buffalo with one company when I asked about their policy on the PH shooting. The owner said something like, "We are not going to track your buffalo all over the place, so if it does not drop, we will put some shots in it." Wanna guess whether I booked a hunt there?

I had the same response from one outfitter and from one PH I talked to.  Sorry JJ, not trying to start anything but it does happen.  Jim Carmichael's story on his first African Lion hunt talked about it happening(the PH's shot knocked out one of the lions teeth(I will look up the name of the story if you want)).  Elgin Gates wrote about it back in the 1960's in Gun World magazine about a PH of his shooting a "back up" into his buffalo because it was "his policy to do so on all dangerous game".  In most of the stories I read where it happened it was while hunting lions and buffalo.  Makes you wonder if these two are not the MOST DANGEROUS of dangerous game in Africa?  Lawdog
 

[500grains]

The most dangrous thing in Africa is a gang of roving thugs hoping to rob foreign tourists in the cities or to/from a national park.  
 
A more common danger is auto accidents.  Always wear a seat belt, even in foreigh countries.
 
But perhaps the most common danger is the danger of being ripped off by a corrupt official or unscrupulous operator.
 
Serious illness is not much of a danger as most travelers take malarial prophylaxis and are careful of what they eat.
 
Getting stomped by dangerous game because the PH did not shoot soon enough is pretty far down the list of dangers.

[DirtyHarry]

I read several times that the cape buffalo has killed more PH's than any other african animal, so I guess they are pretty dangerous

[500grains]

I read several times that the cape buffalo has killed more PH's than any other african animal, so I guess they are pretty dangerous

Statistically not as dangerous as driving to the safari area by car.     :eek:

[DirtyHarry]

:-D  :-D  :-D

[500grains]

:-D  :-D  :-D

Well, people who are excessively in fear for their personal safety probably should not hunt dangerous game in any event.