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Offline williamlayton

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« on: April 11, 2004, 02:21:17 AM »
Mary, by now, has found the tomb empty. Have you?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline ironglow

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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2004, 03:00:36 PM »
William;
  I count my blessings every day...because that tomb was found empty...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Antlurz

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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2004, 07:24:57 PM »
Wish I could  figure out where this is going............

Rather than to venture a guess, I think I'll  watch and learn...

Ron

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2004, 12:58:08 AM »
That is most often a good policy, well,er, I often doan do that real good. :oops:
The tomb must be empty!
It is the only way for the sins of a man may be forgiven. The central theme of scripture is the redemption of fallen man. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
Man, in his fallen state, cannot attain salvation thru his own goodness as we are incapable of being "good enough" in ourownself. "All have sinned and fallen short". God's own righteousness will not allow sin to inhabit his kingdom.
The old testament points to the need for a sacrifice needed for the atonement of sin. Alas, the sacrifice of animals is not good enough-these pointed the way to a perfect sacrifice. This sacrifice must need to be perfect. "There is no one good enough" (paraphrased). Therefore God had to sacrifice himself, Christ Jesus, the man, God in the flesh to atone for our sins- to attain a point of perfection allowable for man to come into the presence of God- to purchase, to pay a ransom, a gift to man for man, grace.
When Christ Jesus GAVE his life on the cross of calvary it was for our sins. He declared us to be acceptable. He Gave, no one can kill God, he Gave up his life and then took it back and accented to heaven to be the the eternal living lawyer for man, declaring man to be acceptable.
How do I receive this gift of eternal LIFE. BY FAITH, believing who christ Jesus said he was, GOD. It is a free gift, it is eternal.
The tomb is empty-God has arisen-he lives.
If this is not understandable, please reply, there is much to be said and others who may say it better.
If the Lord has tugged at you, if the spirit has moved you to a point of believing all that is necessary is acceptance.

Blessing
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Bikenut

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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2004, 04:25:20 AM »
A controversial viewpoint...........

Religion (note I didn't say God) is the single most dangerous influence in the world today. Religion is simply man's attempt to control other men under the guise of that control being sanctioned by an all powerful supreme being.

Sure there are many good works that result from religion. Feeding the homeless, counseling those with problems, funding medical help...... etc., etc..

But there are many bad works too. Condemning anyone who doesn't hold to a religions beliefs, even condemning those who don't hold to those beliefs as strongly as someone judges they should, robbery in the form of tithes (church leaders need money!), and intimidation plus murder (remember the Crusades?) in the name of spreading God's word.

God, at least in my understanding, accepts all people as His children. God doesn't want money, He has no need for it. He does have a need for each of us to treat all others with dignity, respect, love, and compassion.... much the same as God treats us.

Religion has one purpose, to perpetuate the religion and retain control of the masses. This is accomplished in many ways. Making the flock feel guilty fills the offering plate and more money means the ability to fund the growth of the religion. Religion feeds on some individuals need to have someone, something, bigger and stronger and wiser than themselves to protect them and make them happy. And if that can't be found inside the church building here and now then it is promised as a reward for adhering to the religion's rules after death.

Perpetuating the religion means anyone who doesn't belong/believe .... is wrong at best and an enemy at worst. Some religions are relitively benign and only preach at unbelievers. Some religions go much further and simply kill anyone who doesn't believe. Neither has anything to do with God since God wants people to come to Him not be dragged to Him. Religion only uses God to give it the power of unassailable rightness since saying something bad about a religion is the same as saying something bad about God........ and that is sacrilidge.

Another tool religion uses to perpetuate itself is fear. Fear of getting on God's bad side if the building fund isn't donated to, or 10% of money earned isn't dropped in the collection plate, or not enough effort is made to convince others to join the religion.

Religion is all about control of the masses. Doesn't matter which religion it is, Christian based religion in all it's forms, Bhuddism, Islam, pick one it doesn't matter, all share one thing in common........ if a person doesn't believe in God in the way the religion tells them to then they are outcasts and lesser people than those who do believe and have the true calling. Problem is, each religion thinks it alone has the one true calling and all the others are wrong. Well, none of them has got it right and all of them are not God oriented but are all about using God for their own purpose.... perpetuating themselves.

There is nothing more dangerouse than a fervent believer in a religion of any kind for this person is convinced they are special because they are following God's path, God's word, and the destiny God has mapped out for all of mankind. And since a nonbeliever isn't following God according to the one true calling of a religion the nonbeliever is lesser than, not as acceptable as, a worse person than, and even an enemy of, the person who does believe. And the nonbeliever can only gain acceptance by joining the religion. This is elitism and dangerous since that attitude puts people into strata in the minds of the believers. It puts the believer above the nonbeliever........ and that attitude is painfully apparent in the actions of people who feel compelled to spread the word whether the nonbeliever wishes to hear that message or not. In fact, the more the nonbeliver doesn't want to hear the message the more insulted (righteous indignation) the bearer of that message becomes and now forcing the non believer to hear and obey the message has become a sacred duty.

I don't see any difference between a religion that forces fear and guilt onto people in order to get them to believe and obey what the religion says that God says....... or a religion that takes a more direct route and shoves an AK47 into a nonbeliver's face and demands they believe and obey. Different religions, different methods of forcing people to adhere to the ideas of others as to what is right and what is wrong, same results... the perpetuating of the religion and the perpetuation of the control of the masses.

All this is done in the name of God. A sad story indeed.

I fully expect to hear from those who read these words and suddenly feel the righteous duty to either try to gently inform me of the error of my beliefs....... or to jump on me with both feet and force me to realize the error of my beliefs. Regardless of which happens....... it proves my belief that religion (note I didn't say God) is all about people elevating themselves into a position that allows control of others by using the ultimate authority and unassailable power of God. Most likely I'll be deluged with biblical quotes that are the foundation of the quoters beliefs but don't mean the same thing to me.

There is precious little of God in religion and none of religion in God.
The longer I live, the older I get.
Neither has anything to do with wisdom.

Offline ernon

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2004, 08:00:12 AM »
Quote from: Bikenut
A controversial viewpoint...........
There is precious little of God in religion and none of religion in God.


Amen.

Ernon

Offline crazyjjk

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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2004, 08:20:07 AM »
Right on Bikenut, More harm has been done in the name of religion than any other reason in the world. I believe but I do not need someone or some organization telling me how to do it.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2004, 09:24:36 AM »
If you can define what you mean by religion I would appreciate it. I was discussing Christianity.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Bikenut

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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2004, 12:38:42 PM »
Quote from: williamlayton
If you can define what you mean by religion I would appreciate it. I was discussing Christianity.
Blessings


I mean no disrespect to you..... I understand that you are just letting me know that you wish me well, and I also wish you well, yet you are merely a human being the same as I and have no power to bestow, or deny, any blessings. Blessings often come through other people but do not originate from them.

I was referring to any and all organized religions regardless of the beliefs they say they are based on since the real purpose for an organized religion is to get as many people as possible to join the "flock" or "congregation" and be subjected to one belief system above others........ and thereby controlled.

What do I mean by "controlled"? When some religious authority says someone will suffer the pain of hell (regardless of that religion's definition of "hell") if they "sin" but enjoy the pleasure of heaven (also regardless of that religion's definition of "heaven") if they adhere to the belief system that authority says is the correct one........ that is control. Granted that some belief system have a side effect of helping people to live gentler and more serene lives.... but it is still control. What is wrong with a belief system that helps people live gentler more serene lives? Sheep live gentle and serene lives relying on the shepherd to tell them which patch of grass to eat. Which is not such a bad thing... depending on the shepherd and if the sheep don't mind being used for the shepherd's own selfish purpose of shearing them.

There is a vast difference between "religion" and "spirituality".

Religion is man's way of forcing other men to believe what those in power within that religion have decided are the correct beliefs above other beliefs. In plain language... "Do what I tell you is right because I am closer to God than you and I know what God wants. Listen to me and obey me because I have the power of God backing me up." Doesn't matter if the one in power is a Priest, an Immam, a Rabbi, an Ayatollah, a Minister, or whatever, it all comes out the same thing.

Spirituality is a personal connection, an individual connection, within the person themselves with something on a larger scale than mere humanity. Call that something what ever is wished, God, Supreme Being, or even Harvey, but it is an internal thing that affects the individual on an individual level and does not require periodic injections of cash, doesn't need another human to explain it, doesn't have any hoops to jump through to attain it, does not require the individual to convert others, and has no wish to force anyone to do anything... not even the individual with the connection is expected to change in order to fit another human's expectations. In fact, this spiritual connection is unique in that other human's are not a part of it in any way, although how the spiritually connected person treats other humans most definately will be affected by that connection.

By the way... Christianity is an organized religion with different factions within that religion each with slightly different perspectives. It is an organized belief system based on Jesus Christ and requires people to get to God by going through Jesus.

God isn't interested in how much money a person gives to the church... He is interested in if a person took the time and effort to take a bum to a resturaunt and feed him. God isn't interested in prayers... those ritualized things tossed off by rote memorized as kids... He is interested in conversations that bare the person's inner feelings. I sometimes have conversations with the thing I refer to as God spoken outloud in everyday tones and language that include a bit of cussing Him out...... and that kind of thing shows honesty.....  to Him and to myself.  When God pisses me off I tell Him and in the telling gain insight to myself. God isn't gonna "get" anyone if they make a mistake... but He does want people to learn from their mistakes. God also doesn't care who is having sex with who.... but is interested whether or not that sex harms anyone, including both partners and anyone who wasn't participating in the sex but might be negatively affected, including the entire human society. God isn't interested in promises but is very interested in commitments we make to Him, to ourselves, and to other people and the following through on those commitments. And God doesn't need any middlemen or women since He is personally accessable to everyone at all times.

Religion is man using the fear of God's power to control other men. Spirituality is getting a hug from God.
The longer I live, the older I get.
Neither has anything to do with wisdom.

Offline ironglow

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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2004, 02:54:43 PM »
I am a Christian....but I don't have much time for "religion"!
 
 Pure Christianity perpetuates the doctrine of "free will", that a person is free to either accept or reject Christ...quite simple isn't it!
 
  I deal every day with people who have apparently not yet opted to accept him!
  Am I hostile to them?...no
 
   Do I treat them as second class citizens?...No..citizenship in the world,
has no bearing on Heavenly citizenship.

   Am I rude or sarcastic to them?...no...perhaps someday they will have need of spiritual counsel...it would be silly to alienate them!

    Free will; Perhaps you have seen that famous painting that represents Christ standing before a rustic door...the caption says, "behold, I stand at the door and knock.."
  You will note there is no exterior handle available for the Christ to employ!
    Explanation is simple:  he will not go in and grab the resident to convert him, No; he only quietly taps upon the door (one's heart)....the occupant can choose to open the door (their heart) or choose not to!
 
  There are a couple misunderstandings about the Bible that I would like to point out.

  1) We are not ALL God's children!
          In the book  of John Chap 1 vs 12  it is written;
    " But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to BECOME the sons of God., even to them that believe on His name."

   If those that "received" him were given the power to become sons of God...obviously, prior to that time,  they were not God's children..
   
   Is this elitist...exclusive...no way, God clearly says when speaking of eternal life that "whosoever will may come" and that He is " not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance."
 
   Virtually anyone CAN BECOME God's child!

  2) God does not demand that anyone be saved..it is each person's free choice..."free will"...
     Christ gives instructions to his apostles (evangelists)...Matt 10:14.."And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust  of your feet...".

    See; one is free to choose or accept...ANYONE is free to accept or reject!

  If someone comes to me for such counsel and ends up not accepting what God in the flesh did...I feel sorrowful, but not angry. Perhaps another day they will..
   If someone in history did some evil in the name of Christianity....they did it against the commands of the founder Jesus Christ...God made flesh!
   Blaming all Christians for what some people in history that called themselves Christians did is just as logical as thes fictional newspaper headlines:
   
    A) Wilber Jones , A Hastings , Nebraska Republican should be executed, because a Republican  in Baltimore once murdered a man in cold blood.
         
    or...

   B) Charles Harrison, a Tyler Texas hunter and gun owner,
 should be condemned and have his guns taken away, because a gun owner in Atlanta once shot and killed a sheriff's deputy!

     In Matt25:44 & 45 Jesus warned the disciples about mistreating the hungry, sick or imprisoned etc...saying what they do to them they do to him...
   Not really fair in either case...agreed?

 Not fair to honest Christians either...agreed?

    Now Bikenut; do you see great hostility, anger a need to dominate in what I told you?

     Who, I ask sounds more aggressive or more hostile...this Christian or the man who condemns such belief!

   Remember; life..both earthly and everlasting is simply a great lineup of CHOICES!!   You choose...that's "free will"..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Bikenut

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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2004, 04:44:44 PM »
Ironglow..........

Nice try on the attempt to reverse argument me with, and I quote you: "Now Bikenut; do you see great hostility, anger a need to dominate in what I told you?" However, you gave it away with the word "dominate" instead of the word I used... "control". Domination is only one method of exerting control but it is a word that gave me an insight into you.

Perhaps there is a bit of a misunderstanding....

I never said God was an elitist... I said religions are elitist.

I never said all people who believe in a religion are elitist... I said religion puts people into strata.... devout believers, wishy washy believers, and non believers... and that is elitist.

I'm trying to be very careful while discussing this religion/God subject because it is all too easy to confuse God with religion... or religion with God. I love God deeply but I have no use for organized religion because God isn't the focus of organized religion but is merely a tool being used to keep the believers of that religion in line.

Yes, we are all God's children....  To believe what scripture says requires that one must first believe the bible to actually be God's words. If one looks at the events transpiring during all the years the bible was written it becomes apparent that book was written by men seeking to gain control of an uneducated public through fear of Divine retribution. That isn't to say the bible doesn't have worth... it is a good guideline on how to treat our fellow man once one throws out all the control baloney. The bible also has worth as a historical chronical.... but I simply do not believe God was sitting across from a monk over coffee and dictating His word to be written down without bias or additions.. or deletions.

So... to address your point about God waiting on the other side of the door to be asked in.... if the owner of the door isn't one of God's kids why is He at that address waiting to be asked in? Becoming connected to God requires opening the door and letting Him in but has nothing to do with automaticly being one of God's kids since God created each of us.... did He not?

Free will? Now there is the biggest hoax of all time. It is an illusion brought about by human pride. God is all knowing... correct? God has a plan and is in control of that plan... correct? Since God is all powerful we can be sure that plan will definately happen.. and happen the way God wants it to. Which means you and I will do exactly what God planned we would do each and every second of our lives. An example might help:

Suppose I love apple pie. I walk into a bakery and there is a selection of pies... apple, peach, blueberry, strawberry.... and I choose... yep, the apple one. Since God is in control of His plan and since part of His plan included me going in the bakery to buy some pie... although there was a selection of different pies there was one apple pie....

Now God knows I love apple pie so He has the baker bake one. There it sits and I buy it. Where exactly was my free will.. my freedom of choice in all that? Seems to me God stacked the deck by first creating me with a liking for apple pie, then by having the baker bake one, then by having it sit there in the bakery waiting for me to come in and buy it. I really didn't have any choice between apple, peach, blueberry, or strawberry since it was already known that I would buy the apple. However becuase I, in my human conceit, see so many pies I think (illusion) I have a choice. Free will indeed.

There is one area where we do get to make a choice. We can go through life doing exactly what we are supposed to do according to God's plan and fight it all the way thinking we in our severly limited human intellect actually have a choice whether we do what God wants or not making ourselves, and those around us, miserable......... or we can accept the fact that we humans are just that, humans and not mini Gods ourselves, and the real God is in control saving untold hours of ego, frustration, anger, and misery. Either way we still are going to do what ever it is that fits God's plan.

It boils down to a simple thing.... if God is what a God has to be in order to be God.... then we humans are pawns. Well loved pawns but still pawns. That is hard on human pride but the fact remains... if one believes God has a plan and that plan is working (if God can't make a plan work then who could?) then there is no free will because we are all just acting out God's plan. Can't have it both ways.

Having said all that........ those who believe in free will and/or those who believe the bible is God's sacred word and/or those who believe in a religion are more than welcome to continue in those beliefs. All I said was that religion is the single most dangerous thing in the world because it isn't about God but is about control of the masses by an elitist few. I stand by that statement.

Let me toss something else into the mix......... seperation of church and state is generally considered to be for the protection of religions from government interference. The noble idea of freedom of religion. Not so... it is for the protection of the people from being saddled with a state mandated religion simply because it would be intolerable to have the government also have the power of control that adding religion to it's arsenal of laws would give. Plus the leaders of the church are jealous of their power over the people and do not wish to share that power with a government.

Now why would I toss that church and state thing in there? Because, just like the bible and free will, things are not always what they seem nor are they necessarily what we believe, or want to believe, they are. Religious leaders are not looking out for the people's right to worship how they please but are making sure the government doesn't step in and spoil the good thing they've got going. The bible's worth depends on who is reading it... and free will depends on the beliefs and the ego of the individual.

Your move.
The longer I live, the older I get.
Neither has anything to do with wisdom.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2004, 01:25:59 AM »
Morning Bikenut-
Blessings- I cannot bestow blessings on you I am wishing God to bless you, wishing Gods blessings on you.
Most Religions that I am familiar with ARE mans attempt to reach God. Scripture teaches me that God makes the covenants- God wants to reach man.
God is a holy being, the great I AM. I guess we cannot even start this conversation without defining who GOD is. I am not sure that I am capable of that task. God has shown man, thru the ages who he is, the best man can do is use words to describe his attributes and use those words for his names.
God gave the Hebrew children his name and they would not write it out because of reverence. We do not know the name God gave them. We know the abbreviation for the name and have used them to create a name.
I am going to use some words to describe God but it is a vain attempt, incomplete, does not do justice and cannot describe God.
In the beginning there was God. Now we must put away time from our thought process here. Time is a man made way of gaging things. With God time does not exist. A trite example of this is to say that God see's the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end at the same time, in the same frame. all at once. There is flaw in this thought, I am sure you have figured out already. There is no beginning or end. For the sake of description, and it is a poor one, lets call it this age.
God is unreachable by man. Scripture says he is unsearchable. God is a completely holy being. Holy in this context means complete, complete within his ownself if that is an understandable term.
He holds all things together. He creates all things. Nothing that is was not created by him. Nothing impure, that is not created by him can inhabit him, be part of him, come before him. Well that lets me out  :oops: .
Man has tried all sorts of things to come to God. God has made a way for him, hisownself, to come to man that man may come to him.
He began this by setting apart the Hebrew people for himself. He gave them the commandments-10 not 15, with apologies to Mel Brooks :-) . By these commandments he described sin. Paul put it much better when he said that without the law he would not have known sin. He did not say there would not have been sin without the law. The commandments are a way for God to show his attributes-Not what he is , on the contrary, what he is not.
We cannot live up to the Lords attributes, that is to say we cannot be good enough to come to him. He made a way. He came to us. He paid the penalty for sin, HE PAID THE RANSOM, he purchased us, he came to us.
Enter, stage right, Christ Jesus.
If any denomination trys to control, and some seem too, they are wrong. That is really not the argument is it. Really that is an an excuse for not believing is it not.
It is a way, an excuse, to go our own way, to have things our own way, to do things our own way.
We do not dictate to the Lord, and, conversely, he does not dictate to us. He has said that if we accept by faith that Christ Jesus is God he will come to us and begin a process of change within us to give us the attributes he wants. It is a never ending process and quiet frankly, we will never be complete. He has declared us Righteous, Holy, complete. he has forgiven man his incompleteness thru the price, ransom, paid by Christ Jesus on the cross at Calvary.
John has said that the litmus of whether a man is in Christ is that he keeps the commandments, Not that we keep the commandments to be acceptable. We are not capable of not sinning, though and alas I can certainly do a better job of it than I do.  :cry: But I have an advocate who stands between me and God, this Christ Jesus, who declares me to be Righteous.
Is that an excuse to sin, as Paul said "Do we sin that Grace may abound?" and answered his own question " heavens no".
Is everone in a church a Christian--NO. Is everyone outside the church not a Christian- NO. However, Paul also said not to forsake the coming together of the Saints.
It is a trite term, not really correct, to say that a church is no more than a hospital for the Saints. That aint really so, but it is that and more. I find a place that I can be sat apart from the world for a time, to be with the Lord undisturbed by the world, to find a time to be with those of my brothers and sisters in the Lord, to worship.
Can you do this outside the Church? Well, of course. There is some danger in this however. The danger is believing everything you think, or the danger of not having the benefit of good council.
Look, Paul took his teachings before the church and he was found to be orthodox. Others have and been found to be unorthodox.
Controlling, no, not as a body, not by God. He will conform us but he certainly does not control us. Ya want to see the scars on me because he doesn't. Those scars I put on myownself because I refuse to listen to his council and went off and did things my own way for myownself. Well you can't, but, I can.
Now this conversation can go on forever, as the song says, and I cannot convince you. Even if my clever words, and you can tell by this that I am not a clever person, would convince, that is not the conversion that the Lord is all about . The Lord will not give a test at the end of the age to determine who knows the answer and who will be allowed in. He knows already who believes.
If you find an argument, doubt, anger with this very short note take it before the Lord. Turn me over to him. Turn yourself over to him. Tell him you don't believe, he knows that before you do, ask him to reveal himself too you and better yet, ask him to reveal yourself too you. He is a gentleman, he is not standing there to beat you, to harm you. He has provided a way. he stands at the door and knocks, he wants too come in and sup with you.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Bikenut

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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2004, 03:43:54 AM »
WilliamLayton.... I wish you well and hope the things God decided you will do this day are pleasurable.

Please take a step back and note that I have stated that I do believe in God. If you must please reread my posts. Attempting to lead me to Him is a waste of your, and my, time since I'm already there. Assuming that I need to be brought to God proves one of my points... that religion is elitist in that it seperates people into believers and nonbelievers according to the rules of the religion. Just because I obviously haven't been brought to God according to how your religion says it must be done doesn't mean I didn't mangage to still get there. Also, we obviously have different ideas about who God is and neither of us is going to change the other's thinking or beliefs about Him... that is perfectly ok and doesn't mean we can't converse.

Also please note that I am making a distinction between God and religion. Try to seperate the two. God is God and that is that. People either find a connection to Him or they don't and that is that. But that is from the human side of the equation. Just because people don't find that connection doesn't mean God disappeared. It doesn't mean that God ignores the unconnected ones and showers only the connected ones with blessings. It doesn't mean that God isn't still in control of those who are unconnected. If a person believes that God has a plan and that God is powerful enough to make that plan work then it is impossible to believe that God will allow hundreds of thousands of people to wander around doing what ever they want and messing up His plan. As for my using excuses in order to do what I want...... please reread the portion of my previous post concerning free will. That sums it up concerning my doing what I want to do. And you said it yourself... God is timeless and sees the full picture from beginning to end... that means in order to see the end everything that hasn't happened yet will happen in the way that God already saw it.... because if it isn't going to happen the way God saw it then He would have seen something else... which also will happen because He saw it........ so where is free will? Free will my butt! Free will is a ploy religious leaders use to distance themselves from any responsibility. First they tell you that you aren't worthy of God but they are so bring your problems to them and they will take it to God for you. Then when your problem isn't solved they tell you that because you have free will you must be at fault for not making the right decisions or for being prideful and not having enough faith....... but they are always there to help! That is a large gathering of the smelly male bovine byproduct of digesting grass!

Religion isn't about God. It is about feeding, sometimes forceably, large groups of people a way of thinking that puts an elite few men in control of that large group of people. Instead of relying on a direct connection to God and relying on what that connection tells a person... people are relying on what someone else tells them is the truth. How does anyone know the bible is the truth? Because some church authority told them it is... and then told them that if their faith isn't strong enough to believe that book then they are falling short of God. That is baloney and nothing more than religious control through guilt. And why is it necessary for Jesus to go talk to God for me? Aren't I good enough to talk to Him myself? Religion would have people believe that God is inaccessable to them but is accessable only through some third party... preferably someone in authority within that religion.

Hmm... suppose you wanted to talk to the CEO of a company. Would you feel inadequate.. that it isn't your place...  to talk to the CEO man to man and settle for being given the run around by a secretary? Not me. And using that example why would I want to give a priest, a rabbi, or a minister, a message to take to God? Or give a message to Jesus to take to God, or even worse in the case of Catholics... give a message to Mary, Jesus' mother, to give to Jesus who can then take the message to God.... when I can just talk to God myself?

Religion uses many forms of control.... and keeping people thinking they are not worthy of God is the worst one because it keeps people subjucated. It keeps people from thinking for themselves and keeps the religious leaders in power since ya can't get to God unless ya go through the priest, rabbi, or what ever. And to get to God ya have to do, think, and believe, what the religious leader says you have to. Why? Because ordinary humans aren't worthy of God but the religious leader is? Horse manure!

Religion is an insidious form of mind control. And it has been perfected over the centurys. Religion tells people they aren't worthy of God, that God can only be reached through a religious leader or by adhering to the religion's rules, and that if God can't be reached by those means it is because the person is at fault for either sinning or not having enough faith.. which is a sin in itself. What is worse is that the religion requires each member to go forth and multiply the numbers of members by recruiting everyone they meet. And if they don't recruit then they are not living up to God's expectations and are therefore not worthy of God.... And religious leaders use this mind control to further their own ends.... that of making themselves more secure in their power over the flock and making sure the collection plate is full.

Does anyone really believe that God is for gun control? Some religious leaders surely are all for it and would have people believe that God Himself hates guns. God isn't concerned with guns but is concerned with  people harming people regardless of what weapon is used. (And maybe not the way that is normally thought of... remember God's plan? Could be people harming people is also a part of that plan?) So what does a religion have to do with gun control? Why does any religion concern itself with stuff that isn't all about God?  Because religions were never about God but were, and still are, about control... religions and religious leaders are very interested in contol.
The longer I live, the older I get.
Neither has anything to do with wisdom.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2004, 04:00:29 AM »
Bikenut-
Not sure if the response is too me or Ironglow so I will back out for now unless you respond.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Bikenut

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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2004, 04:23:14 AM »
Sorry about that WilliamLayton... the response was intended for you and my mind was speaking to you... but my fingers typed the wrong name at the beginning of my post... I edited it to reflect that it was, indeed, intended as a response to your post.
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2004, 06:42:07 AM »
Ironglow-
Well I thought that, but wanted to check it out.
Lotta stuff to respond to in your post that I just was not sure about your thinking so I started with the basics.
If ya got the basics of Christ and are confident concerning your relationship that is very good, and I praise the Lord for that. The rest is of less concern to me.
Might disagree with some of the thoughts but it is certainly not worth the space to debate here. There is a website that I generally refer folks too "a christian think tank" which I enjoy and have found very interesting. Lots of good thinking put into it and certainly is more scholarly than my simple post.
I will say I have more confidence in the organized church than you and yours must have come from a poor experience. I would encourage you to search again. I am confident the Lord will lead you too one which can properly feed you and meet your needs.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline ironglow

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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2004, 12:02:50 PM »
Bikenut;
  Since you do not accept the Bible as God's word....there is little more to discuss..
   We are in the same corner concerning "religions" , so there is no debate there.
  Your personal beliefs of course, do contradict Biblical truths...but of course, as I stated; that's your choice....free will...you've made your choice, and that's fine with me.
  Peresonally, I believe that Jesus speaking evangelistically, could have made use of  that old ad for Fram oil filters. ..remember..."You can pay me now; or pay me later!"...see Bikenut...it's all about choices!
  Clearly, you do not understand the concept of free will, but no matter, you still have it!
   Somewhere you have gotten a distorted picture of the pastor's position, which really is merely a studied-up guide..a shepherd.. if you will.
  Often there will be some in the flock who are theologically, as well trained as the shepherd, yet understanding that althougfh each member of the body are co-equal peers. ultimately as with any organism there must be one head..
  As far as desiring a minister, rabbi, etc. etc. to pray in my place....a waste of time.
  Why do you think it was that when Christ gave up the ghost, the veil in the temple that separated the people from the "Holy-of-Holies" was torn from top to bottom, exposing the dwelling place of God to the people?
  God clearly did that to show that we have NO NEED of any human intercessor.
  I fear you have been soured by some false teacher(s)...Matt 7:15.
   True apostolic Christianity declares that each saved person is his own priest and can go directly to God in prayer.
  You insist that we are ALL God's children, even though I showed you scripture to the contrary... please refute me ...book, line and verse...
 

   Since there is nothing more to discuss ...adieu...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2004, 12:22:56 PM »
well I did it too didn't I bikenut! :oops:  :oops:
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2004, 03:08:16 AM »
Just a couple of questions, I think I can see the ansers in your post, but I want to make sure.
What is your belief about the person of Christ Jesus?
What, source that is, do you use to confirm your thoughts?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Bikenut

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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2004, 07:54:23 AM »
Quote from: williamlayton
Just a couple of questions, I think I can see the ansers in your post, but I want to make sure.
What is your belief about the person of Christ Jesus?
What, source that is, do you use to confirm your thoughts?
Blessings


I'm guessing these questions were intended for me?

Who is Jesus? I don't know. I do know this much.... Jesus led a life that I wish I could emulate. But that isn't what you want to know... you want to know if I believe Jesus to be God in the flesh. No, I don't. I believe that each and every human being on this planet is God in the flesh. I believe that there is a bit of God inside every person and that Jesus was probably more deeply in touch with that bit of God than most people. I believe that a bit of God is even inside the most evil person because God created everyone, even the evil, as a part of His plan.

I didn't say God was evil since I believe He is something entirely different where the human concepts of "good and evil" don't apply.

Does that mean God is responsible for evil? Yep. He created everything, including evil. I have no clue why He wanted or needed evil but it must have been necessary for His plan to work or it wouldn't be here. In fact, everything that has happened good or bad and everything that is happening and everything that will happen is God's fault because it is all part of His plan.

What is evil anyway? Depends on perspective. A simplistic example:

A guy shoots another guy. To the shooter it may appear he is doing a service in protecting himself. To the person shot it may appear the shooter is evil for having shot him. To a bystander witnessing this event it may appear that both the shooter and the shot are evil.

Am I blaming everything on God? You bet. But look at that clearly since I'm also "blaming" Him for everything good. I'm trying to explain that "good" and "evil" are human concepts and depend entirely on perspective........ and don't apply to a being that has the power, the knowledge, and the intellect required to be classified as "God".

Most people think of God as embodying everything that is good and Lucifer, or the devil, as the embodiment of all evil. Yeah riiiight, and who created Lucifer knowing full well what Lucifer was going to do? God did because He needed evil as a component of His plan. I don't believe there is a Lucifer as the embodiment of evil nor do I believe that Jesus was the embodiment in the flesh of all the good that is God... I believe there is just God and He does all sorts of things in order to make His plan work but it is us humans who attach the labels of "good" and "evil" to the things God does.

Actually, if one thinks about it, since God sees everything from beginning to end then His plan is already set in stone... and He already did everything and the plan has already worked.... He might not even be around anymore but is off somewhere else working up another plan... the problem is we are left here and have to slowly live through everything included in the plan of God .... even though to God it is already a done deal.

What source am I relying on for this information? That bit of God inside me, the same bit of God that is inside everyone. Do I have it right? Do you have it right? Does it really matter who has it right? When you and I meet in what ever awaits us beyond this life on earth... let's have a cuppa coffee and compare notes.
The longer I live, the older I get.
Neither has anything to do with wisdom.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2004, 10:23:50 AM »
Well, I don't think I would convience you, but I will pray that the God of creation does smile his face on you and reveal Christ too you, that is if you doan mind.
I love ya.
Blessings

PS this is fer bikenut, but I will pray fer anybody that needs it, I'm always at it anyway--fer me.
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2004, 11:35:10 PM »
Morning Bikenut-
lets get a cup of coffee down on inspirational messages and thoughts.
See you under coffeetime.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD