Author Topic: Volume shooter considering casting (Read 820 times)

Shepard · « **on:** April 26, 2004, 11:14:00 AM »

Hello,
I have just begun to explore casting so please excuse my ignorance. I am an ipsc shooter who typically shoots 4000-7000 rounds a month. Even buying lead bullets in bulk that adds up to a tidy some.
I am hoping someone could give me some advice on casting.
Since I know nothing about casting my question is: If you had a 4k-7k a month shooting habit would you look to casting your own as method to reduce cost? And if so what equipment would you use?
Also, I don't need a super accurate bullet. Just a bullet with reasonable accuracy and consistant velocity for practice.
The magma master caster seems to be about as much speed as I can afford but I don't really know what is out there.
Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
If I'm completely off base please let me know.
Thanx, Shepard

jpuke · « **Reply #1 on:** April 26, 2004, 11:30:39 AM »

I cast because I can't afford not to, jacketed bullets cost way too much for me to shoot, but I only shoot 2000 rds a year. The one thing I do know is that casting takes time. I loaded up 350 45 ACP rounds this weekend and it took me about 6 hours total. I started with 0 bullets and the majority of that time was spent casting, lubing, and sizing. I do have to admit that I don't have a huge furnace, but I do use aluminum moulds to speed up the process. The reloading isn't that time consuming, the casting is what slows me down. I don't know what your schedule is like but for me, trying to divide time between work, wife and kids would make 7000 rounds a month darn near impossible to cast. I envy that you can shoot that much.

jgalar · « **Reply #2 on:** April 26, 2004, 01:35:23 PM »

Casting can be time consuming. A 6 cavity mold and a bottom pour melter would be the way to go. Do you have an off season when you don't do much shooting? If you don't shoot much in the winter you can spend the time casting gobs of bullets. Lubing and sizing is also time consuming. I would only cast if you have an off season at least for the ammount that you shoot. Even if you can't supply all your bullet needs by casting, you can decrease the amount of store bought. See if you can find a supplier of wheel weights for cheap. If you can't get cheap or free lead, why bother.

Duffy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 26, 2004, 06:05:36 PM »

If the master caster is the one I'm thinking of you should be able to crank out about 500-1000 bullets a hour. That's a heck of alot faster than a regular bottom pot. You need to figure in where you to get your scrap or casting metal from and also how long that supply will last. Some of the tire places won't give out or even let a guy buy weights any more. I think the EPA has a finger in that. Don't forget the cost of lube either. I don't shoot near as much as I used to but casting is still cheaper and I can tailor my bullets to the need and vel that I want.

talon · « **Reply #4 on:** April 27, 2004, 04:33:43 AM »

This is an interesting case of personal economics. You don't mention how much you are paying per round, but an annual consumption of 12 months x 5500 bullets is way over the top of the vast majority of home hobby casters. Casting from 1 to 30 different types of bullets and shooting 500-1000 rounds a month is fun. Casting 5500 one of a kind bullets per month is WORK. As has been mentioned, doing so will definitely take time away from your ISPC sport. Is that worth saving, perhaps, 2 cents a bullet? I think what you want to do is find a producer that can make the bullet type you want (maybe even buy the molds for him), and contract on an annual basis. I'm sure there are commercial, or semi-commercial folks on this board who have the equipment (less the specific mold) who would be interested in such an arrangement. One critical cost factor would be shipping.

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** April 27, 2004, 06:36:28 AM »

Unless you have a free source of lead and a LOT of time I don't think it really makes economic good sense for you to do this. Surely there is someone relatively near you who is a commercial caster. You should be able to work a good enough deal with them to buy your bullets nearly as cheaply as you'll be able to make them and have the time to shoot.

GB

txpete · « **Reply #6 on:** April 27, 2004, 06:46:42 AM »

I have a master caster and a star lubesizer.small bullets, perfect alloy, temp,ect 800 an hour can be done.large bullets 250 gr and up maybe 400-450 a hour.now lubing even on the star which is the fastest sizing 500-600 an hour can be done.
I will say that the master caster does a fine job and the star lube sizer is well ahead of lyman and rcbs.on the master cast which I have had now for over 10 years the only thing I have replaced is the temp control last year.I am still using all of the orginal moulds that I bought when I started.
I have replaced nothing on the star and it keeps cranking them out.
be advised that if you go this route your shooting buddies will try to put the pinch on you for bullets.
pete

Shepard · « **Reply #7 on:** April 27, 2004, 10:23:52 AM »

Thanks for the help.
I'm currently paying around $40.00 a thousand for 180 grn .40s and that is if I drive 3 hours one way to pick them up. I have recently moved out to the west coast and am paying about $10.00 per 1000 more than I was. I dont know if that is location or overall increase in lead prices.
I have a couple of tire stores who have said they will give me their wheel weights and I called place in Phoenix that said they would sell me lead for .25 a pound.
I don't know all the expenses involved in the casting process. Could someone hazard a guess what the price difference would be between buying bullets at the above prices and what I could cast them for.

Again, I really appreciate the insight

txpete · « **Reply #8 on:** April 27, 2004, 10:44:25 AM »

there is going to be a BIG hike in lead prices so if you can get your hands on some free lead do so.I looked at the starline brass web site and they are now charging a sur charge on their brass now because metals have gone up.
good cast bullets are more than just lead,ww, scrounged stuff.you have to have tin and antimony to make a quality cast bullet.tin has always been expensive along with antimony.most wheel wieghts now have very little tin.tin is what makes your alloy flow and fill the moulds out better.antimony is kind of like a pluverized metal this what makes your bullet hard.
think that maybe you should pick up a rcbs/lyman cast book and do some reading.magma eng. also has a book but goes more into comm. sales end of it.most of the comm. companies out there use magma equipment.
pete

Chargar · « **Reply #9 on:** April 27, 2004, 05:59:07 PM »

Pick up your wheel weights. Melt and clean the alloy and cast it into usable ingots. Cast the bullets. Inspect and discard any culls. Now lube and size your bullets. Even with the high dollars semi-production equipment some of these folks have it will take you 3 to 5 days per month, just to get in a supply of bullets. Using my equipment it would take me 5-10 days to produce 7K good bullets. I am talking long 8 hours work days here. What value do you place on your time and what other uses do you have for this time?

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #10 on:** April 28, 2004, 12:46:45 PM »

I think what you wanna do is doable and fairly cheaply. What you have going for you is that you only need one bullet style and you only need decent, not great bullets.

Two 20 pound pots and two twin six cavity moulds will give you a casting production rate of over 1000 bullets per hour and one pot will come to temp about as fast as you can empty the other. You might even manage 1500 per hour.

If you can live with a Lee Tumble Lube design, you can skip the sizing and dip lube in Rooster Jacket. You're gonna have to treat the Lee mould as expendibles since you are gonna wear out a couple of sets a year, but they are only $35 each.

There are ways to make better bullets and all the advice you have been given is good advice, but my understanding is that you don't need better bullets, you need a LOT of good enough bullets.

You might also give some thought to recovery of your fired bullets. My rough guess is that you are going through 250 pound of lead a month. You can recycle it endlessly if you can recover it.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #11 on:** April 28, 2004, 12:56:03 PM »

Quote from: Leftoverdj

I think what you wanna do is doable and fairly cheaply. What you have going for you is that you only need one bullet style and you only need decent, not great bullets.

Two 20 pound pots and two twin six cavity moulds will give you a casting production rate of over 1000 bullets per hour and one pot will come to temp about as fast as you can empty the other. You might even manage 1500 per hour.

If you can live with a Lee Tumble Lube design, you can skip the sizing and dip lube in Rooster Jacket. You're gonna have to treat the Lee mould as expendibles since you are gonna wear out a couple of sets a year, but they are only $35 each.

There are ways to make better bullets and all the advice you have been given is good advice, but my understanding is that you don't need better bullets, you need a LOT of good enough bullets.

You might also give some thought to recovery of your fired bullets. My rough guess is that you are going through 250 pound of lead a month. You can recycle it endlessly if you can recover it.

Excellent advise! Only suggestion is if you can find someone to help you with it. Maybe you buy the equipment and let your helper make some extra production for their use.

Shepard · « **Reply #12 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:40:40 PM »

Thanks again for the great advice guys. I have ordered a number of books to get the fundamentals.

For my application do you think a pair of six cavity molds and two 20 pots would be better than a master caster or vice-versa?

Leftoverdj,
Am I understanding you correctly that I don't need to size and can just "tumble lube" the bullets? I'll have the reference materials soon and hopefully won't have to ask too many more uneducated questions?

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #13 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:51:16 PM »

If you use the Lee six cavity moulds of the tumble lube design they have a greater number of very small lube groves. They are designed to be shot as cast without sizing.

By tumble lubing them you squirt a little bit of the lube on top of a bunch of bullets in a small plastic pan or kool whip container and then swish it around until the lube covers the bullets evenly. Then you spread them out on a sheet of wax paper to air dry. Depending upon your climate it does not take long.

When dry, they are still somewhat tacky, they can be used for loading. We load them that way for 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 Auto on RCBS progressive presses.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #14 on:** April 29, 2004, 06:31:22 AM »

Shepard, Thomas, I suggest the Rooster Jacket lube because it's not tacky and it's a lot cheaper than Liquid Alox in bulk. It leaves a waxy surface much like found on lead .22s. It's not as effective at the higher velocity levels as LA, but it's plenty good in the 1000 fps range. It can be applied by just pouring it over a thousand or so bullets in a wire basket over a catch basin. When the basket stops dripping, you pour the runoff back into the jug. Don't even need to spread the bullets out unless you need to speed drying.

You can lube and shoot without sizing any cast bullet that drops a thou or two over nominal. The Lee Tumble lube series is suggested because they are expected to be used without sizing and the tolerances are set for that. With other production moulds you may or may not get a mould that that drops bullets that don't require sizing.

I dunno nothing about the Master Caster. It's way out of my price range. I do know that I can about double the production rate cited for it with two 20 lb pots and two six cavity moulds with a total cost of around $200.

Someone mentioned the time for lead cleanup and ingot making. I can make maybe 700 pounds of ingots in a Saturday and get the the lawn mowed and the yardwork done at the same time.

Shepard, you're probably stuck with us. The stuff you need to know is not in the cast bullet books I have seen. We've got about 20 posters who could WRITE a better book on practical casting than those available.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #15 on:** April 29, 2004, 06:55:28 AM »

I'll have to give that Rooster Jacket lube a try sometime. I have a pretty good supply of the liquid alox on hand and it has worked good for us.

There is something else that I don't think any has brought up and I think we may be avoiding on purpose. That is when you are talking about production quantity, your results may vary greatly and will improve with practice and little tricks and habits you develop to speed things up.

It's kind of like competive shooting, some folks are naturals for it and for others it seems to take a whole lot of work and they may never get to the level that they wixh. Not trying to discourage you, but it seems not everyone has the patience and persistance necessary to do it consistantly.

For hobby casters like myself, I just like to make bullets almost as well as I like to shoot them, production is not really a concern. Kind of like tying flies and other things I like to build.

hammerhead357 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 01, 2004, 06:13:53 PM »

Shepard take DJ's advise and if you need more I have several years of high volume casting experence. I am not saying that I know it all but I used to sell about 40,000 hand cast bullets per week and that was doing it part time. The only automated equipment I had was a LubeMaster from Magma it would lube and size about 3600 to 4000 bullets per hour. I did have a helper that ran that most of the time but I did the vast majority of the casting myself.

With the proper set up you should be able to cast between 1000 and 2000 per hour. With the Star lube-sizer set up properly you should be able to process over 1500 per hour. You can also melt large amounts of wheel weights in a short amount of time.it is just a matter of getting the proper information and the proper equipment.

I would be glad to try to help you with equipment suggestions and share what little knowledge I have with you. You can continue here or by PM.

Shepard · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2004, 12:51:49 PM »

I appreciate any advice you can give me on equipment and procedures. I'm not familiar with PM but the forum is probably ready to see this thread end. So I'll TRY to contact you by PM but in the event I fail my e-mail is: Shepard1967@yahoo.com
Thanks again for the help,
Shepard