Author Topic: WC846, the 45-70, the Weird and Wonderful (Read 1364 times)

JPH45 · « **on:** April 16, 2004, 02:25:04 PM »

I passed 1300 fps with plainbase bullets today, bested it by at least 200 fps maybe more.....

Tried out some of the WC846, I used AA2495 data, first I loaded up 45 grains under the Lee 405 HB, shot five rounds. Manual lists 1457 for this load with a 420 grain boolit and I can believe that. Recoil is stiff. First shot went to point of aim, the next two were low 4 inches but side by side, less than an inch apart. But they were right at the bottom edge of the paper, so I moved my POA higher, the next 2 were again 4" low of POA and side by side, like cloverleaf side by side. I was elated, but disappointed....I had no more 405HB boolits.....

So I decided I would try out my Lee 340 boolit. Loaded it over the same 45 grains (curious to see how it would react) and POP. Hold for 30 seconds, open the gun, out pops the case and a pile of powder....no boolit. Had to drive it back out. Was it a fluke?

Chambered another......POP.....Hold for 30 seconds......open the gun, out pops the case, a pile of powder and whats this at my muzzle.....my boolit. Primer drove it to the muzzle.

OK, enough fooling around, back to the book and 51 grains of WC846, Load it and wham, scope in the forehead, shot is 4" low. Cool. Load up 4 more (all the 340 boolits I have lubed at hand) this time with 54 grains. Start is 51, max is 57 at 18,000psi, safe enough primers show no sign of high pressure.... BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM....WOW :eek: 3 shots in one hole...NO S##T...Fourth shot is 1" away. This load must be making over 1600 fps easy, the book shows 1628 for the start load and 1850 at max, all one sees through the scope on ignition is a white ball. And yes, the gun RECOILS. Factory 300 grain JHP @1800 fps type recoil.

Maybe tommorow, but certainly Sunday I will load up some more and clock 'em. I also have at hand some of the Lee 405, and I'll give them a tryout too. These loads are not for the squemish. If you are looking for a nice load to plink and play with, this is not it. These will make good hunting loads, but I care little for shooting a bunch of them from the bench. But it was OH SO SATISFYING to see loads using plain base boolits I know are well above 1300 fps shooting so nice.

I hear the the surplus 7383 is close to 4350. Sounds like it could be a nice powder for cast boolit applications, but in the 45-70 would take heavy doses of powder and recoil would go up to match

jeff223 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 16, 2004, 03:02:15 PM »

JPH45, is this 45-70 going to be your main hunting rifle now?going to retire your 44mag and the 357max?

JPH45 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 16, 2004, 03:58:57 PM »

No, I would have a hard time retiring any of them. Hopefully soon I will be able to get another scope for my 30-30, the one I had on it is on the 45-70 now. My intentions are to work up some good loads for both the 30-30 and the 45-70 this season and spend some time hunting with them too. I was going to do that last year with the 30-30, but hunting season caught up with me first. Then I got the 45-70 bug again. I still have the 375 JDJ bug, but a 375 Winchester or a 38-55 might just satisfy me. You know how it is, Once you've had one gun........you want one of all 'em. :grin:

jeff223 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 16, 2004, 04:12:11 PM »

i know what you are saying.i cant wait to get out and work on my 30-30 150gr loads again.it will be a about a week before i can play around with it again.going down to Indiana tomorrow to fish in a bass tournament and then on Monday turkey season starts here in Michigan.hope to take a long beard with my nef 10ga turkey gun.

good luck with that 45-70

handirifle · « **Reply #4 on:** April 16, 2004, 08:20:31 PM »

JPH45
I know what you mean about the medium bore bug. I understand JDJ doesn't allow others to produce reamers or dies to his specs. How would you go about it?

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #5 on:** April 17, 2004, 03:16:46 AM »

Gonna hafta try that 405 HB load, JPH. I got all the makings. If it gives me good accuracy and 1500 fps, it'll do me unless the mastadons come back to Virginia.

JPH45 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 17, 2004, 10:06:09 AM »

Handirifle, the single easiest way to get there today is simply go buy a Contender or Encore frame and get a barrel from TC. JD has authorised TC chambering and selling the 375 JDJ, and someone is even making ammo for it, I just can't remember who. The only way of getting there with a Handi is to get a 38-55 barrel and rechamber accordingly with the 375/444. That is the non-SSK version of the 375 JDJ and is readily available through most reamer suppliers. Last and most practical is to get a 38-55 Handi barrel and simply use 375 Winchester cases and data. The JDJ will edge it, but I doubt there is a deer or even elk walking that would notice the difference of 150 fps or so. The final way of getting there would be to get the 38-55 barrel and rechamber it to the 38-56 Ackley Improved. This is simply the old Winchester 38-56 (a 45-70 necked down to 375 (38) and given the Ackley sharp ahoulder and straight case taper treatement. Even though one should only operate the case at the 28,000 psi pressure limit of the Marlin/Winchester lever action loads, I wouldn't be the least concerned about pushing it to 35,000 or so in the Handi (Midrange Ruger pressures) and this would come very close to equaling the 375 Win/375 JDJ performance. Besides, 45-70 cases are far more readily available than 375 Win or 38-55 cases.

DJ, it is now 3:00pm here and as soon as the lube cools on my boolits, I am heading to chronograph some of these myself. According to some of the handgun hypers, a 400 grain bullet at 1500 fps will readily handle mastadon. Some have even published pictures of skulls that were completely pentrated by such a load. I do wonder though just what kind of load is left in the pants when the shot is miss rather than a hit......... :eek:

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2004, 01:49:05 PM »

JPH45; I just chrono'ed some loads with 748 and it was really weird. 60 grs. of 748 and a Speer 400 gr. produced a average of 1744 fps. 62 grs. of same powder and a Hornady 300 gr. h.p. was 1660fps.
This is a first for me,more powder and a lighter bullet produced less velocity.
Digger

Longcruise · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2004, 05:52:45 PM »

748 is a powder that just does not perform well with reduced loads. Very typical of Win and Hodgdon ball powders. If you are going to shoot reduced loads in your 45-70, better to go with the faster burning powders like 4227, 2400, etc.

That's my exp anyway, your mileage may vary :grin:

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #9 on:** April 26, 2004, 03:53:14 PM »

Longcruise; At 60 grs. I was almost max'ed out with the 400 gr.,and it looks like the 62 gr. 300 hp. load should have been faster instead of lower. Digger

Longcruise · « **Reply #10 on:** April 27, 2004, 03:53:25 AM »

Digger, what's happening is that ball powder does not burn efficiently unless you get your pressures up near max. You reduced your bullet weight 100 grains but only increased powder charge by 2 grains. I'm NOT suggesting that you increase your powder charge beyond the 62 grains with the 300 bullets. :eek:

You will probably do much better with 322, rl7, 3031, or 4198.

JPH45 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 27, 2004, 11:52:48 AM »

Ditchdigger, took me a bit to figure out how to best answer your observations with 748......

Powders of these burning speeds need pressure to reach their peak efficiency. Most likely, the 748 under the 400 grain is geting up a bit more pressure than the 748 under the 300 grainer. This is a result of the heavier bullet, and there is nothing you can do to increase the velocity of the 300 grainer using 748. To get more velocity in this instance, you need a faster powder. I'm using this burning speed (WC846 is roughly equivilent to BL-C2 which is similar to AA2495 and 748) because it goes well in the 30-30, and it also works good with gcast, giving good groups but keeping velocity down. I'm not interested in 400 grain boolits fasterr than 1500 fps, too much recoil for my tastes.

Like Longcrusie suggests, use something in the range he is suggesting for more velocity. Another note is that ball powders are notorious for poor performance in loadings less than 85% of available volume (case volume minus the volume taken by the bullet of course) some will not shoot ball powders under 90% volume. My test actually was quite risky, it could have resulted in a hang fire just as easily as it simply fizzled. From the looks of it, AA3100 and AA4350 may be the best of the slow powders for 45-70, offering velocities equal to and a little better than given by black, but they will be dirty. A few will use a few grains (not more than 3) of a fast rifle powder (something like R7, but certainly not as fast as 2400) and make a duples load using powders in the 870-8700 range.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #12 on:** April 27, 2004, 03:45:37 PM »

Well I learn something everday. It sure seems strange for the 748 to perform the way it does. Its the first time I've tried this stuff and will probably be the last since the IMR powders have always been more predictable for me. I think I'll try some IMR 4198 in the next batch,and see what happens. It's weird but the 400's at 1766 fps seem easier on my shoulder than the 300 grain Win. stuff. Digger

JPH45 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 27, 2004, 04:24:34 PM »

Ditchdigger, 748 should perform quite well in cases like 223, 7-08 30-30, 308, 356 Win, 358 Win. It is a bit slow for a case like the 7.62x39 (1680 is the powder for that) and a bit fast for the likes of 243 Win (bore on the small side for case capacity) and 30-06 (better suited to lifting heavy for caliber bullets with powders like 760, R19 and the 4831's) If you have anything in the first group of chamberings, you may want to give it a tryout there. Nothing wrong with the powder, the 45-70 is just not the best application for it. You'll find the stuff flows like water and meters like a dream as compared to the IMR stick powders.