Author Topic: Transit to traditional from compound (Read 1826 times)

ronbow · « **on:** May 11, 2005, 03:39:13 AM »

Having hunted for about 12 years with compound bows and taken deer and hogs, I want to get rid of the space bow and shoot a recurve. I have several concerns with accuracy, killing power and skill. I understand that a recurve requires much more practice to become proficient with than a compound. I have bought a used Browning 45# recurve and really enjoy shooting it. I currently hunt with a 70# PSE single cam with 80% let off. This bow is almost like shooting a scoped rifle. I am concerned about how accurate I can become with the recurve and what kind of game penetration that can be achieved with say a 55# recurve. I have recovered every deer/hog I have shot with the compound except with 2 I grazed. So my question is how much and how long should I practice with a recurve and what accuracy can I expect to achieve.

longwinters · « **Reply #1 on:** May 11, 2005, 06:47:36 AM »

If you can practice every day. In my mind you should not be hunting unless you know that you can put that 1st arrow in the kill zone, at your chosen shooting distance, everytime. A person can be very accurate with traditional equipment but in my experience you better be willing to devote major time to practice. Shoot cut on contact broadheads with an arrow that gives you about 9 grains per pound of bow weight (shooting at least 50#'s for pigs) and you will have good penetration. Shooting traditional is great fun as long as you can take the time to pay your dues.

Long

muzzleblast525 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 11, 2005, 07:23:10 AM »

I've thought about the same thing. I hunted with recurve back in the late 70's while in school, and missed so many deer. Problem was I was trying to shoot to much weight for a young kid, and now, that I'm older, need to look at it again.

Mad Dog · « **Reply #3 on:** May 11, 2005, 08:46:53 PM »

Years ago, I used to run a mail order traditional archery shop. I taught myself to shoot a recurve back in 1987, and never shot another compound. I have taught several people[both men and women], how to shoot a traditional bow. First, start 10 to 15 lbs. under your compound weight[I learned this one the hard way :shock: ]. Next, don't go to a target, and shoot the same way you would practice with a compound. Get some judo points, and put them on some flu flu arrows. Take a gallon milk jug and throw it out at an unknown distance in the yard. Look at the jug, and point and shoot. I am willing to bet that within 5-6 shots you will be hitting it consistently. Once you are, go to a smaller target[soft ball, ping pong ball, cigarette pack, etc.]. Next go to 5-5 1/2 inch helical fletch, with judos, and go to the woods and stump shoot at unknown distances. You will be amazed at how quickly you will become accurate. Your eyes focus on the small target, and your hand/eye coordination will do the rest. The worst thing you can do is put up a round 10 ring target, and step off 20 yds. and shoot. You have a harder time concentrating on the center because you are subconsciously looking at the whole target. Working on your form, will come with time. I would reccomend getting a copy of Fred Asbell's instinctive shooting. Good luck, and don't look back. My kill percentage went up when I went to traditional equipment, and I killed about 15 deer with a recurve. Definately go to cut on contact broadheads, like snuffers[my favorite], zwickeys, etc. You also might get a subscription to Traditional Bowhunter Magazine, because it has a lot of great info. Just my thoughts...

Mad Dog

wijim · « **Reply #4 on:** May 13, 2005, 04:41:57 AM »

yeah im doing just what you stated in post 1 on this thread...its a long road to get over the ease of a compound...but im making progress....im gettin softbal size groups at 15 yards after 2 months of alot of practice. one thing to consider...keep practice sessions short or you will end up with tennis elbow and a sore shoulder. there is alot more recoil shock with a recurve ive found. my penetration is good. im shooting 55# at 28.5 " using 2216 aluminum shafts. they hit hard. i will be using this set up on black bear in september. my shots will be at 10-15 yards...i want to be proficient at 20 yards..but wont take those shots for the most part. i just figure if i can hit good groups at 20 yards.....my fifteen yard shots will be that much better.

ronbow · « **Reply #5 on:** May 16, 2005, 06:43:00 AM »

Quote from: wijim

yeah im doing just what you stated in post 1 on this thread...its a long road to get over the ease of a compound...but im making progress....im gettin softbal size groups at 15 yards after 2 months of alot of practice. one thing to consider...keep practice sessions short or you will end up with tennis elbow and a sore shoulder. there is alot more recoil shock with a recurve ive found. my penetration is good. im shooting 55# at 28.5 " using 2216 aluminum shafts. they hit hard. i will be using this set up on black bear in september. my shots will be at 10-15 yards...i want to be proficient at 20 yards..but wont take those shots for the most part. i just figure if i can hit good groups at 20 yards.....my fifteen yard shots will be that much better.

Do you practice from a treestand or on the ground. How practical is it to handle a recurve from a treestand? Where do you anchor the string? Do you actually draw and hold (aim) like shooting a compound or is it pull/release ?

wijim · « **Reply #6 on:** May 17, 2005, 03:22:30 AM »

i practice from both treestand and at the range. the bulk is at the range. the repetition there gets me consistent in my form. so ill pump out 100 or more arrows at the range, but ill fling only about 18-24 off my stand. its just insurance to make certain i can compensate for the elevation.

no i cant shoot sittin in my stand like i can with my compound....its just too combersome the overall length of my bow strung is about 52"....so my knees are in the way if i have to follow.

i hold for maybe 3 seconds on the shot...sometimes as little as less than 1 second. the better im shooting the less i hold and the less i hold the better im shooting.....see a pattern?...lol

my anchor point is the crotch of my thumb n forefinger (for lack of a better term)...you know the meaty part of the thumb muscle?...rests on my jaw bone nose 1/4" or so from the string so my pupil is in line with the string.

i keep my pulling elbow high and i dont use my arrow tip as a guide like some do. i also dont shoot as well as many though either. im keeping a tennis ball group at 10 yards, and a softball size group at 15. im working on getting that softball at 20.

the one thing is....the minute you get fatigued....quit practicing for a day or two. it just gets your head out of the game and you pick up bad habits like gripping, jerking your shot, rolling your fingers, and pulling the srtring back after you've anchored.

cuz you are so used to compound....its gonna be a longer road than if you'd never shot (least it was for me......i started recurve in my teens...then at 23 got a compound and didnt shoot recurve for many years). it was easier to get good when i hadnt shot compound.....i think i still try n look for a pin...lol

your anchor is going to be personal....and most likely different than mine...but you gotta use one. in my experience....kisser buttons threw me off with a recurve cuz i was thinkin too hard about anchoring instead of just letting it happen.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2005, 06:12:15 AM »

It was easier on my switch from compunds back to traditional equipment...because I never really gave up on shooting recurves or longbows...and towards the end of my cable and pully days...I was shooting barebow anyways...

You want to practice shooting from as many different positions as you can possible shoot...you just don't want to shoot like you did with your compound...so learn how to can't your bow and shoot under limbs and vines...that's the beauty of shooting traditional...we are no longer limited to that type of shooting...I suggest you find some outdoor IBO shoots in your area...and at least attend one so you can see what is going on...you will be shooting right along side compound shooters...and it can get real interesting if they have it set up correctly...some shots will require you to hook your foot on a peg and practicly lay down to shoot under limbs at your target...and most compound shooters can't shoot that way...

Try shooting at a very small target dot...like the stick on 1/2" orange or yellow type on your target butts...it will force you to concentrate entirely on it...and not the rest of the target...you have to teach yourself to focus and to concentrate smaller...I try to see a individual hair (even though my eyes aren't good enough) on my deer I'm shooting at...not an area where I want my arrows to go...

My anchor is the corner of my mouth...and I have my bow up ready to be drawn without pulling the string till a second before shooting...all my concentration is on the deer...and I'm trying to see that individual hair I'm going to split with my broadhead...

Mac

wijim · « **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2005, 07:14:19 AM »

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and I have my bow up ready to be drawn without pulling the string till a second before shooting

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I'm trying to see that individual hair I'm going to split with my broadhead...

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you have to teach yourself to focus and to concentrate smaller...I try to see a individual hair (even though my eyes aren't good enough) on my deer I'm shooting at...not an area where I want my arrows to go...

think tiny on your target.....truer words were never spoken on recurve shooting.

Woodbutcher · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2005, 02:47:09 PM »

Dear Ronbow:
The biggest challenge I faced was trying to find out what good form was, so I could practice it! Boy, did I ever get a lot of bum advice!
You're getting good stuff from this post, Mad Dog is saying it right, get the books by G. Fred Asbell. His info set me straight, finally! I had a bad problem with high elbow, when that was recognised, ( among other things ! ) then I could practice properly.
As far as accuracy to expect, how about a softball sized target at between 15 to 25 yards, with confidence? Problem with a target face with all them pretty rings and colors is that it confuses the eye, and screws up the hand eye coordination for instinctive shooting. You'll end up gap shooting. I think that the best target for setting up and one kind of practice is a large black background with a tiny bright dot as an aiming point. Try a quarter inch at ten yards. Seriously addictive!!
55 pounds will shoot through anything I'll ever hunt with a bow, just gotta get the arrows going straight.
How long you ask? I've accompanied people who never really shot a bow before. We went to a 3D, and they came back with all my arrows. And that was with stickbows! You shoot already!!

Woodbutcher

Tuffcity · « **Reply #10 on:** May 27, 2005, 06:29:57 PM »

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I have several concerns with accuracy, killing power and skill

One and three are up to you :-) but 55# has the "killing power" for most any thing on this continent. Don't make the mistake of assuming slower speed equals less kill power. Decent arrow weight and a razor sharp broadhead will get the job done.

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I keep my pulling elbow high

wijim, if you're shooting like that you're probably torquing the string. I know that if my groups start to open up or I get flyers my elbow is creeping up. FWIW, try having your elbow in line with your wrist and the arrow.

You also mentioned that your bow rattles you (hand shock). If a recurve is doing that, quite possibly it isn't set up properly, you could be gripping it too tightly, or there is something wrong with the bow. My 'curve doesn't have any more shock than my buddys Darton compound, and I shoot it bare bow. Even my longbow has next to zero hand shock.

Anyway, my $.02 and maybe some thing to try. :grin:
RC

wijim · « **Reply #11 on:** May 31, 2005, 03:28:03 AM »

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You also mentioned that your bow rattles you (hand shock). If a recurve is doing that, quite possibly it isn't set up properly, you could be gripping it too tightly, or there is something wrong with the bow. My 'curve doesn't have any more shock than my buddys Darton compound, and I shoot it bare bow. Even my longbow has next to zero hand shock.

actually it is set up perfectly, the shock comes as i fatigue. then as you say, i grip too tightly, and the tendon in my elbow (ie tennis elbow which i get pretty easy with lots of activities) starts flappin cuz i am flexing my forearm too tightly and wind up stiff arming the thing. its precisely why i just bought a lighter bow for those long shooting sessions. after about 60-80 arrows i should quit, but personally i just dont like to..lol so thats where i get the fatigue related shock. if i keep going right through the elbow issues..iot goes right up to my shoulder too.

guess how i know that?... :-D .....at least i dont see lasting effects of poor habits from that.....yet.

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wijim, if you're shooting like that you're probably torquing the string. I know that if my groups start to open up or I get flyers my elbow is creeping up. FWIW, try having your elbow in line with your wrist and the arrow.

i tend my elbow down.....so for me...i have to lift my elbow to get it "in line" you are right though. thanks. i try to get all the pull from my back as oppsed to arms....it kind of keeps my shooting consistent so i know the feel easier. probably an odd quirk of mine id guess.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 31, 2005, 09:08:17 PM »

wijim:

If you are setting up with a high elbow...you will torque the string...and induce shock to the bow hand...this will cause you to fatigue earlier than pulling straight back and thru...corner of mouth to ear lobe...after many dislocated shoulders from injuries...torn rotator cuffs...tennis elbow and wrist..( I used to teach tennis)...I do know about pain...a little anyway.....and what tuffcity is telling you is correct... to correct your grip...you need to be using just your forefinger and thumb...not a dead head grip all the way around using all your fingers...and to get used to shooting this way..you'll probably need a safety wrist strap...at least till you build up enough muscles in the pads of your bow hand...to hold thru any shot you'll take...and it does take some getting used to...but once you master it...I'm sure your scores will climb as a result...the least amount of hand in contact with the pocket of the grip...makes the bow twist the least...the area of your bow hand...where this place is ...is in the hollow between your forefinger...and thumb...not with the heel of your bow hand...it's so much easier shooting this way for a recurve...than a slab handled longbow or flatbow.(not that anything is wrong with either...I own both...but they are just different)..and when done properly...the bow will recoil naturally... bottom limb toward you...after the shot....at which time you can support it with an additional finger...I generally raise my pinky finger up...unless it's raining and wet...then I might raise my ring finger as well...but never all of them in a full fingered grip is on the bow...even when I was shooting a 90lb+ Browning...

Hope that helps

Mac

wijim · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2005, 02:59:33 AM »

thanks for the tip.

im going to try that...i do use an open grip...but with fore n middle finger wrapped to thumb. i dont give it the white knuckler..lol...

but im definitelt going to play with the elbow. im shooting well pre fataigue so i expect a worse group as i transition until i correct...just because im changing form.

see im the only person i know in my area that uses recurve exclusively as of late..(in my circle of hunting buddies that is).

i think this change of form may get my back into it better as well....i have always believed the more you feel it in your back....the less you are bullying the bow with arms...this may just be the trick.

Tuffcity · « **Reply #14 on:** June 01, 2005, 04:01:31 PM »

Once you get used to holding the bow really lightly and pulling straight back with your back muscles you probably will notice quite a difference. My hands are not really big (about 10" from end of thumb to little finger, spread out) but I hold my 'curve pretty much as Mac described, and there is a gap of about an inch between my thumb and the top finger. The rest of my fingers are off the handle except for the little one which just lightly sits on the handle to stabilize after the shot.

Obviously I don't know how you draw. But if it you hold the bow out in front and then draw, you might also try drawing with a more push/pull style. IE: bring the bow up but closer to your body than usual then push out and towards the target with your left shoulder (assuming a right handed shooter) while pulling back with the right. That way you use both sides of the back muscles more or less equally. The pushing arm and the pulling arm should stop at about the same time. Hopefully this makes sense.

Happy shooting. :grin:

RC

ronbow · « **Reply #15 on:** June 02, 2005, 07:39:20 AM »

Thanks guys. I am printing all this advice, and having fun shooting. Almost at the basketball at 10 yards. Probably will hunt with the compound this year if I don't get the 8 inch group 80% of the time at 20 yards. But will "shoot" for next year. Bow season opens here Sept. 24.

wijim · « **Reply #16 on:** June 02, 2005, 05:54:29 PM »

IT WORKS...... less fatugue and less shock. my 10 yard acuracy was suffering right away as i changed..but it came quickly. my 15 yard accuracy i tried after i got 10 yards under control...and did not suffer a bit. my 20 yard accuracy sucks...but it never was great...lol....but it is better than it was.

1000 TIMES THANK YOU TUFF AND MAC!

one tip for ya ron bow.....aside from listening to the guys i mentioned above. dont think you have to accomplish shooting a set # of arrows in your practice sessions....cuz as with compound....you lose focus thinking of that after awhile (a few sessions) and suffer through the end of sessions...its amplified with recurve. just shoot to the point of comfort and try to stop before groups get worse. i made that mistake early by obsessing over my groups and trying to get good too fast. it just takes time and patience.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2005, 03:19:18 AM »

If everything is tuned properly...and your still getting basketball sized groups...it can be a couple of things causing it...most likely your still trying to peek at your target to soon...try this and see if it helps...first...have a very small dot on the target...1/2" will suffice...and with a "open grip"...try pointing your index finger at the dot when shooting...holding your bow hand up till the arrow hits the target...the other thing is your plucking the sting...if your shooting with a thick glove...or thick tab...try some talc powder on it and see if it slicks it up enough to stop you from plucking...if not...you can always change your tab or glove to another brand..or style...

Mac

handirifle · « **Reply #18 on:** July 09, 2005, 07:22:18 PM »

One thing that I didn't "see" mentioned here was bow weight. To learn on a recurve you should start with a weight well below what you want to hunt with. Something in the 35-40lb range. That lets you learn proper form and release without the fatigue or injury.

You will give up little or nothing in trajectory if you use proper arrows for the lighter weight bow as well, so the transition to a heavier bow/arrows will be an easy one. Find a cheap bow on ebay in the 35-40lb range and have at it.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 10, 2005, 06:28:52 PM »

Quote from: handirifle

One thing that I didn't "see" mentioned here was bow weight. To learn on a recurve you should start with a weight well below what you want to hunt with. Something in the 35-40lb range. That lets you learn proper form and release without the fatigue or injury.

You will give up little or nothing in trajectory if you use proper arrows for the lighter weight bow as well, so the transition to a heavier bow/arrows will be an easy one. Find a cheap bow on ebay in the 35-40lb range and have at it.

Quote

I have bought a usedBrowning 45# recurve and really enjoy shooting it. I currently hunt with a 70# PSE single cam with 80% let off. This bow is almost like shooting a scoped rifle. I am concerned about how accurate I can become with the recurve and what kind of game penetration that can be achieved with say a 55# recurve.

Ya gotta go all the way back to the beginning :wink:

Mac