Author Topic: Buffalo With a Shotgun?  (Read 2876 times)

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Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« on: December 10, 2003, 09:34:56 AM »
Anyone ever run across something like this in a reputable source?

"The hunters all used the standard Sharps rifle, but Bill said he was going to use a shotgun. "That Sharps will knock me off my feet, and I don't aim to get a broken shoulder, either," he explained. "How can you kill buffalo with a shotgun?" one of the men laughed. "I'm substituting a single lead slug in the shell instead of buckshot." Bill's said. In less than a half–hour he had bagged a dozen buffalo, riding his pony and never jumping to the ground to shoot as the others were forced to do when using their heavy Sharps. Tilghman killed nearly four thousand buffalo that year with his shotgun, while the combined total of the other hunters did not reach that figure. The news of his new technique spread. Everyone wanted to use a shotgun to kill the buffalo."  http://www.angelfire.com/apes/westlegends/Tilghman.htm

I've read of isolated instances where buffs were killed with a shotgun and buckshot at very close range, but nothing of the magnitude indicated above.
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Offline Holiday

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2003, 09:47:26 AM »
Now THAT is interesting. Seems that the old scatter gun really IS one of the best all around fire arms. At close range, if the ball was fairly tight fitting, I bet it would be impressive. If he shot a 12guage, the bore would be about .73 to .75 caliber. If he used a 10 guage it would be closer to .80 caliber!(just guessing on that one) Modern tests have shown tha a larger diameter bullet has less felt recoil. The Sharps that  were usually used on buffalo were around .50 caliber with any where from 90 to 120 grains of Black powder. A 12 guage used 90 grains of bp if I'm not mistaken.
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Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2003, 10:12:48 AM »
Check this out:  http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/outlaws/earp/4.html?sect=17

"Wyatt ignored other standard practices to expedite his product. For one, he and Bat did not use the unwieldy Sharps buffalo gun with its tremendous kickback; instead, they selected the lighter, easier-to-aim shotgun. Nor did they charge the buffalo on horseback, which only resulted in merry stampedes. Rather, they hunted on foot, with stealth.

"My system was to work my way very near to the herds," wrote Wyatt in his memoirs. "The shorter range of my shotgun made this necessary, but I could fire as rapidly as I wished...before the animals smelled blood." Because the buffalo did not alarm to the sound of the guns, they were able to shoot "one stand a day, which meant 25 to 30 dollars apiece" for him and Bat."

References are to Wyatt Earp and "Bat" Masterson.
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Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2003, 10:37:34 AM »
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Offline Big Hext Finnigan

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2003, 03:01:39 PM »
Howdy,

This seems to be a cool story, but does it make sense?
If it were true then wouldn't the shotgun be the "buffalo gun?"  If it were THAT much more efficient at killing the big shaggies, the business hunters would have adopted the guns as quickly as they could arm themselves.

I want ol' Bill's agent to work on my next shoot.  Think how fast and accurate I'd be..  :wink:

Adios,
But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.  - Edmund Burke

Offline williamlayton

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2003, 01:53:59 AM »
hex-
bout as fast an accurate as i want my kids to believe i was once. doan think i'm as convincen to them as to me though. :oops:
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Offline MOGorilla

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2003, 02:21:18 AM »
don't remembere where I read it, but I recall the Indians would use the trade guns to hunt buffalo with during the fur trade era.  I think most trade guns were smooth bore front stuffers from 20 gauge to 12 gauge.  I recall they would ride the ponies next to the big shaggies and let them have it at close range with the gun.  I think a 12 gauge is a 74 caliber, a 74 caliber ball on top of 90 grains of black powder would be an impressive load.  I spent some of my younger years in Illinois and that is the gun that is used for Deer there.  At 100 yards or less, they are an impressive firearm.  It sounds possible if he wanted to be that close to them.  I wouldn't want to be 50 yards from the herd when I started shooting, unless I had a gatling gun as back up.

Offline Holiday

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2003, 02:36:20 PM »
Could be true, could be fiction. But if true, from what has been said so far, he probably rode in close to do the shooting. Other Buffalo hunters probably prefered to be at a longer range for safety, so the shotgun technique didn't catch on. Personally, I don't think ridin' into the midst of a bunch of furry freight trains would be my cup of tea!  :eek: The longer the range, the better!!  :-D
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Offline Dan Chamberlain

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Shotgun or Sharps?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2003, 07:59:59 AM »
Big Hext:

Your logic, while seemingly logical, doesn't really take into consideration that just because someone finds a different way to do things that works, doesn't mean everyone will line up to give it a try.  Who was that guy who killed hundreds of elephants with a 7mm Mauser?  When you go to a store to buy an elephant rifle these days, not too many clerks hand you a 7 em em!  So, if old Wyatt and Bat found out a large chunk of slow moving lead seemed to work for them up close and personal, it simply meant there were a lot of buff runners with more sense, who were better armed!  Now having said that, I'm thinking the shotgun was still the most useful arm to ever have been invented...and I'm not even a shotgun man.

Dan C

Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2003, 09:03:57 AM »
Dan said:

 "Who was that guy who killed hundreds of elephants with a 7mm Mauser?"

Wasn't that A.D.M. "Karamojo" Bell?

(Guess it still fits this forum if he did it in Western Africa).
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Offline Big Hext Finnigan

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2003, 10:39:11 AM »
Howdy pards,

I thought Bell used the 6.5 Swede?

Anyway, I'm not saying that everybody would adopt the new technique or that it would sweep the country..

But :"Tilghman killed nearly four thousand buffalo that year with his shotgun, while the combined total of the other hunters did not reach that figure. The news of his new technique spread. Everyone wanted to use a shotgun to kill the buffalo."

This quote makes it pretty cleat that the technique was overwhelmingly superior.  How many other hunters were there? 2-3-4?  Even if just two, the killed twice as many.  In a commercial enterprise you go with what works for you.  If you could build twice as many guns or cars or widgits using an different piece of equipment that was all ready in existence, wouldn't you?

I'll admit that folks are rarely logical, but even this seems to be too good to be true.
Adios,
But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.  - Edmund Burke

Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2003, 11:54:12 AM »
I've read he used both the 7MM Mauser and the 6.5 x 53 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer, which simply proves once again, it's not so much the gun as it is the hunter.

http://www.african-hunter.com/6_5_x_54_mannlicher-schoenauer.htm
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Offline Holiday

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2003, 12:02:31 PM »
I've heard that he used both the 7mm and 6.5 as well. But what is really interesting is William Bell's huting method. He would get the elephant to CHARGE him, and when it was nearly on him he would shoot up under the chin area. This offered a staight shot to the brain that didn't have a lot of bone in the way. Talk about a set of cajones!! :eek:
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Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2003, 12:04:50 PM »
About as big as the elephant's, wouldn't you say?
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Offline Holiday

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2003, 12:28:34 PM »
Hey, Hamp. Have ya ever noticed we joined up here on the same day? Dang, it only took me a year ta figure that out! :D
Holiday Hayes
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Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2003, 02:02:22 PM »
Looks like you and me got us a anniversary comin' up here shortly.  Reckon the Marshal gonna give us the day off?
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Offline williamlayton

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2003, 02:23:44 PM »
day off--did i hear ya right--wait a minute let me put on my glasses an turn up tha volumn on my ear aid--yup you boys did say day off---well,er,now boys we was all wonderin when ya was goin ta put a full day in.
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Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2003, 08:48:52 AM »
Warning to any black powder cartridge rifle (BPCR) types out there:  This post references some BPCR loading practices that, in all liklihood, are unsafe.  It is presented here only because of its relationship to our discussion, and is NOT recommended.  DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!

The following is excerpted from The Great Buffalo Hunt by
Wayne Gard.  Doesn't even mention the use of shotguns, but does provide a pretty good overview of the rifles used.  Hamp


                The hide hunters used a great variety of weapons, from old Kentucky muzzle-loaders to condemned Spencer military rifles.  The Henry, the Remington, and the Winchester had their partisans.  Other hunters agreed with Bill Cody in preferring the .50 caliber, single-shot, breech-loading Springfield, which some called the Long Tom.  But most of the professional hide men who could afford one clhose the Sharps /Big Forty-five or Big Fifty, whose long range made them especially effective in killing buffaloes.

   Bill Tilghman and Billy Dixon preferred Sharps when they had a choice, and Wright Mooar used two of them for most of his killing.  With its strong action and breech, the Sharps could handle unusually heavy bullets land powder charges.  It suited those hunters who wanted to place a big piece of lead accurately at long range.

   The term needle gun, which crops up in some accounts of buffalo hunting, was used loosely.  Originally it appears to have been applied to the Dryse rifle, which a German, J.N. von Dryse, developed in 1836. This was a single-shot, breech-loading rifle, with a bolt breech closure.  It fired a conical bullet encased in a paper cartridge, together with a powder charge.  The Prussian Army used it against Austria in 1866 and against France in 1870.  But on buffalo ranges, as one of the hunters, John R. Cook, pointed out, and trap-door breechblock might be called a needle gun.

   Sometimes a hunter would have a gunsmith make a change in his rifle to adapt it to his special needs. Charlie Justin had metal sights taken off his guns and bone ones put on to avoid the reflected glare of the sun.
   Of his Sharps rifles, Mooar preferred the smaller one.  “I killed 6,500 buffaloes with my fourteen-pound gun,” he estimated, “and 14,000 with the eleven-pounder.  The barrel was octagonal half way up from the breech, then it was round.”  The brass shells, some of them bottlenecked, were three inches long.  Many hunters, including Mooar, preferred to load their own shells with black gunpowder.

   Wright Mooar, who bought bullets by the thousands and powder in twenty-five pound kegs, used to wrap a piece of paper around each bullet before he put in the shell.  Wrapping the bullets instead of greasing them, he explained, kept the interior of the rifle barrel from becoming coated with lead.  “The bullets were made with a concave butt.  When the barrels of our guns became so hot that they began swelling, the bullets with the concave butt would be expanded when shot by the charge of powder, thus filling the barrel and making it true.”

   When he loaded the shells, Mooar said, “I would fill the shell with powder within half an inch of the top.  When I got the powder in, we set the shell down and put the rimmer in and hit it a lick with the hammer, putting a wad on top and then a little powder on top of the wad and the bullet on top of the powder.  As time went on, we went a little stronger on powder until we loaded a 90-grain cartridge with 100 to 110 grains.”

   Since every type of rifle made a different boom, the hunters soon learned to tell one from another.  “I knew the sound of every one of my guns,” said Mooar.  The white men on the range felt safe as long as they heard only the big guns of the hide hunters.  But the sharp crack of a smaller rifle alerted them to a possible attack by Indians.


From Hamp:  Any idea what a "rimmer" is (next to last paragraph above)?
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Offline Holiday

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2003, 12:18:03 PM »
Don't know what a rimmer is, but the practice of loading described here isn't TOO bad. Scares me a little when thy whack the powder load to compress it since bp is a little sensitive, but other than that it sounds fairly normal. Wonder what the purpose of putting a little of powder on TOP of the wad was?

 As to the "needle gun", the Dryse rifles were called "needle" guns due to the long, needle-like firing pin that would pierce the paper cartridge and detonate the primer compound. It had to be long because the primer was in the bullete base, so the needle had to penetate all the way THROUGH the powder charge. I'm sure some probably made it over here, seems like every other type was in use. I don't know how this term would be used to apply to a Trapdoor, though.
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Offline HWooldridge

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2003, 01:01:44 PM »
Maybe he meant "rammer" and it's a typo.  I'm with Holiday - don't see anything that's overly scary here.  Other than that, it's fairly typical reloading practice for a Sharps with paper patched bullets.

Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2003, 03:00:48 PM »
It's not you oldtimers what smell like brimstone when you sweat that concern me.  It's the newbie that might not understand everything he "knows" about BP (like volume vs. weight, static electricitiy, how to compress a load {with a hammer?}, etc.).  Didn't mean to insult you guys, but don't want the Marshal sued because of something I posted on his fourm that could be misinterpreted, misconstrued, or misunderstood and result in an injury.  Therefore, the qualifier.

Still think it was an interesting bit of info.
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Offline williamlayton

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2003, 02:08:41 AM »
aint you tha huckleberry, always thinkin ahead. you is right in doin that though. probable thar is sumbody out there, like me, what doan know enough to know when he doan know nuff.
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Offline Holiday

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2003, 09:42:29 AM »
Hamp, good thinkin', as always. You're right, to the novice, loading black powder can be dangerous. It ain't hard, but it is differant!
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Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2004, 05:57:49 AM »
This thread was started several months ago.  

I subsequently ran across the following account that seems to fit with the original topic.  It is attributed to a Henry W. Taylor, "one of the first cowboys the late Charles Goodnight hired when he established a cow ranch in Palo Duro Canyon".

Hamp


   "The worst scare I ever got occurred on the Texas frontier in 1872. On November first of that year I started out with a party of buffalo hunters. From a more settled part of Texas, we had to go about two hundred miles to find buffalo.  "We pitched camp on Crotan Creek, where it empties into the Brazos River. Here we made a great killing. Something over five hundred buffalo. Here we dried and poisoned the hides, and cured the meat. We loaded the meat and hides on wagons drawn by ox teams and headed to market.  "Ox teams were used because Indians would drive away  mules or horses but seldom bothered oxen. They were too  slow for the Indians. An ox would sometimes show up with an arrow sticking in its hide.  "The meat and hides were hauled to market at Sherman, Texas. While we were at work with the meat and hides, the  buffalo changed their range, and so we had to hunt for another skinning ground. We had been at this camp on Crotan Creek two months when we got ready to move.  "Moving camp was slow because of the ox teams. We  crossed over the Narrows to the Clear Fork of the Brazos  River. Then we went up this river to a wide open country, but the place we made camp was broken. We found plenty buffalo near the headwaters of this river, northwest of Old  Fort Phantom Hill. There were plenty wild horses, deer, wild turkey and wolves. Plenty Indian signs, but no Indians.  "We sharpened up all our skinning knives, cleaned our guns and put the camp in order. Our guns were 45-70 calibre Octagon barrel and weighed fourteen pounds each. These would shoot over a mile. We also had one heavy No.'8 bore  shotgun, 28-inch barrel, that weighed twelve pounds. This gun was kept in camp with the cook, for his protection from  outlaws and Indians prowling the frontier. I forgot to say our rifles were Sharps, considered by all buffalo hunters to be the most reliable guns made for this work.  "Our camp was on a very high grassy mound not far from the creek where we got water. About three or four hundred yards from camp there was a low strip of bottom land   about two hundred yards wide. This bottom land was covered with heavy growth of sunflowers, some ten feet tall.  Wild turkeys ranged in the bottom, feeding on the sunflowerseed. Buffaloes had tromped a trail through the sunflowers.  It was a narrow trail, because the buffalo traveled single file.  "After we had been at this camp about three weeks and had killed about three hundred buffaloes, I laid off from   work one afternoon to wash up my clothes. After I finished with the washing, I took a bath in the creek. I picked up the shotgun and told the cook I would go down in the sunflower patch and kill some turkeys for next day's dinner.    "After I followed the trail a short distance, I heard rattling weeds ahead. I stopped still and waited; then I saw   coming right toward me a long line of old buffalo bulls, plodding behind their leader. Here is where I got the scare of my life.    "The old lead bull stopped not more than fifty feet from me. He had a heavy mop of hair, which fell down over his forehead and covered his eyes. I decided he did not see me and concluded to make a getaway while he had stopped for breath. The whole line of buffalo stood still, waiting on their leader.  "I cautiously stepped out of the trail, but at six feet I realized the bulls had started on their march. I must stand and fight, no time to run.   "I cocked both barrels of that shotgun and pointed its muzzle toward the trail. The weeds hid me from the lead bull. I knew it was to be the finish of me or the bull. I   waited.  "Again the lead bull stopped, this time right opposite me. I had my gun, at my side and aimed as near his heart as I could guess it to be, and let go with both barrels into that lead buffalo.  "He jumped straight up, whirled around and ran in the opposite direction. The herd made a terrible noise running through the sunflowers and scattered in every direction.    I was spattered all over with blood, and so were the weeds all about me.  "I reloaded the gun and followed the trail for about fifty   feet, and there lay the bull, wounded side up.  He was dead.  Behind his right shoulder was a hole big enough to fit a pint cup. The gun was loaded with 32 buckshot, and one can imagine what it would do that close.  "That night as we sat before the campfire and talked, I told the men about my narrow escape. They laughed at the idea of me killing a buffalo with a shotgun. Next morning I led the way to the sunflower bottom and pointed to the place where the dead buffalo lay. I showed the men the blood spattered weeds all about - blood on the weeds, the trail and my clothes.  "Well, we set in and skinned that old buffalo. Then we cut into him. Nothing but fragments of his heart remained.   I had shot right through it."

This account is excerpted from Chuck Wagon Windies and True Stories, by Lona Shawver, published by The Naylor Company, Copyright 1950
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2004, 11:39:56 AM »
Tha net King comes thru agin.
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Offline Holiday

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Buffalo With a Shotgun?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2004, 01:12:50 PM »
Heck, an EIGHT guage!! :eek:  That ought ta do it! Another interesting thing in the article, I noticed, was the mention of the dislike of oxen by indians. I have read that the native Indian didn't like the taste of cow meat and oxen and would only eat it if nothing else was available.  They did like the taste of mule meat, apparently. So they would steal the horses to ride, the mules for the meat, but didn't have a use for the oxen!
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Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2004, 03:11:42 PM »
Whatcha mean, "net King".  I found that in my personal libery.
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2004, 10:23:06 PM »
Well-i'm begging your pardon mr net, er mr Hamp sir--well I jest assumed when ya found out you could get it all offen tha net ya gave up buyin. I above all men air most ashamed of myownself an am beggin ferginess.
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2004, 02:53:25 AM »
I'm sorry, I fergot to ask if your lips got tired doin all that research.
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Offline Capt Hamp Cox

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« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2004, 12:11:08 PM »
Nope, but I got a blister on my index finger rubbin' it acrost all those pages readin' all those lines of all those words.  Lots more fun when the books has pitures 'stead a words.
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