What 16 grains of 2400 and cast bullets will do for ya

[jh45gun]

Read a article in the Handloading Digest `1994 about shooting cast bullets in military surplus guns. C.E Harris did the article and it was based on reloadings a fellow named Mattern who came up with these loads in the early 30's Harris revamped them for modern powder and one of these loads is what he calls his "universal load" it is any 150 to 180 grain cast lead bullet over 16 grains of 2400 powder. You can use any Military case including the 762x39 but it is a FULL power load for that case. In the other cases it makes a mild accurate load for plinking or target shooting and could be powerfull enough for deer at close range. Vel averages around 1500 fps. Any military case can be used and the 2400 is not position sensitive and use no fillers. I loaded some 762x54 Russian and tried it yesterday while out hunting and fishing I shot it out of my Polish 44. Since I was not at a range had to make due with a rest and leaned against the back of my GMC Jimmy for the first 5 shots at 16 yards to see how they printed and if they were close to the POA.The POA was right on and a very nice cluster of 5 shots less than .5 was obtained> I thought boy I may have something here!! I then moved the truck to about 25 yards (we were in a gravel pit) and went to shoot and did not have the truck parked for a good angle to lean against so used the truck door not as good as it moved while shooting and the group was about a inch and a half at 25 yards I am sure with a good rest it would have not been this big. This load seems to be a good one for shooting cast bullets out of military surplus rifles. The cast bullets I used were 150 grain that I had bought at a sale and they were gas checked and measured .310. Since the velocity of this load is moderate you probably could get by with plain based cast bullets as well. Now that I know this load will work well I am going to load up some more and shoot some at the range to see what they do at 100 yards Jim

[jhalcott]

the heavier 180 gr slugs work much better on deer than the lighter ones!
  I guess it's the momentum that carries them deeper.  ??

[Newtire]

For what it's worth, sounds like you have a nice plinking load fer sure.  If you get leading by going any higher, you might try some .311 or .312" bullets.  I'm gonna give yer load a try in my Russky carbine.  The bore on that thing of mine mikes out at .310."  Good shooting guns I think!

[Graycg]

that same load is a one incher out of my Remington M788 in 30-30 with a hard cast Lyman 311041 with Hornady gas checks and LBT Blue lube.  If you bump the load up to 20 grains, you get the same results out of my 30-40 Krag M98 carbine, same bullet, etc.

regards,
Graycg

[BobS]

I have used 15 to 17 grains 2400 in M1903's and 03A'3 with the Ideal 311291 for about 35  years.  These are not plinking loads, they are match winners.  In every rifle I have used with these loads, ten-shot prone groups have been under 2" at 100 yards, some much under.  That's with issue sights, firing prone in a sling.  My original NRA Match rifle built on a 03A3 in the late 60's will group these into about an inch at 100, some times a bit under, somtimes a bit over, but that's with  KT-15 scope.

The 311291 with 15 grains of 2400 requires the sight setting of about 700 or 750 with most 03A3's with a front sight blade that will also get you zero'd with Lake City or the CMP Federal stuff.  I have used the 16 or 17 grains with the same bullet to get enough elevation to get centered up at 200 yards on the MR-52 target.  Accuracy does not suffer, and I can still shoot 98, 99 and an occasional clean with respectable X count on the MR-52 target at 200 yards (prone slow fire).  You can use a shorter front sight to give a more useful range of practical elevation with the cast loads, but then you may not be able to zero with jacketed stuff. (and after shooting the cast stuff, you may not even care!)

In the 8mm, 16 grains with the Lee 324-170, performance is good in a Yugo 24-47 and a long Persian.  They will both stay in the ten ring of the SR target (7" ten-ring, 200 yards).  I have not been shooting the 8mm long enough to have the confidence that I have with the 03 series, though.

In the 7.5 Swiss, 15 or 16 grains of 2400 with either a 311291U (undersize mould) or the Lee 309-200R has produced 100 yard prone groups of about 1-1/2 to 2" out of a 1911 long rifle.  The K-31 has been more of a challenge, but I stumbled onto the Lee 312-1552R which I bought for the SKS and it works great in the K31 with 14 grains 2400.  That load produced a 289-5X in the Garand Match "A" course on the SR target with one of my K31's. (10 shots prone slow, 10 shots prone rapid, 10 shots standing slow)

The alloy for all of these loads is "old" wheel weights (pre-1970) with a bit of tin from solid 37/63 solder added (that's 63% tin ... get it from stained glass hobby catalog); the lube is the NRA formula Alox-BW, I currently like Javelina.  The gas check is whatever fits the bullet base the best.  I have "old" hornady, "new" hornady, "new" Lyman, and "old" lyman and Ideal.  Thay all fit differently, so I just choose what fits the particular bullet and alloy that I am using.  I use about 1/2 grain of dacron over the powder.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[LAH]

I used the RCBS 30-180-FN with 20 grs. of 2400 in my 30-06. Groups ran 1 1/4 inches with the old K-4 Weaver. Took two bucks with this load. First at 15 yards and the next at 85. Both one shot kills. Anyone use a similar bullet in the .30-30 with 2400 powder?

[JBMauser]

bobS, I am just working up 2400 loads for my Millsurps from the same article.  I use Kapok for my Unique loads but I was not planning on using a filler for the 2400 loads as I read the powder was not as position sensitive and also it throughs a higer volume for 16 gr. as does Unique.  Do you have any results with and without filler for mid sized cartridges?  I will load 8mm 7.65 Arg. .303 and later .308.  with a 200 gr lyman 311-365 spitzer Thanks for you post.  JB

[BobS]

JB:

I have shot some really impressive groups without any filler, but I have found the loads are more consistent with the dacron.  I only use about 1/2 grain, so it's really not a "filler", it just keeps the powder back against the primer.

I have a bunch of 311365 cast up in lino.  I had to face off the top of the blocks because it seems that the previous owner must have tried to pry bullets out with a screwdriver.  This buggered the base up pretty bad, but taking .025" off the top cleaned it up.  I am hoping to make this one shoots with 4831: looking for a 600 yard load here.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[JBMauser]

I also found my Unique loads were most consistant with a tuft of Kapok for filler.  I also just use a bit to contain the powder.  I always feel a pang of concern over the fact that Unique takes up so little volume in a mid sized case.  I was not planning on using it with 2400 loads.  I may have to re-think this plan.  Did you load any of your 311-365s yet?  If so what did you work up?  JB

[BobS]

JB:

Nope, they are still sitting in an old Sierra box, inspected and weighed, nothing more.  Major project due at work and NVGC closes down (essentially) for deer season, and holidays coming so it might be after the first of the year before I get back on the firing line.  There is supposed to be some time available on Range 4 at Quantico on the 28th, but it's little dicey going to the 600 yard line with no 200 yard zero and no Pit Pigs!  Besides, it's cold, wet and nasty here.  I already have too many projects to fit in the trunk of the Mustang and thay keep backing up on me    :cry:

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Robert357]

I have an MN 1891/30 (7.62x54R) that I have worked up a nice 180 jacketed Rem 0.310 inch diameter SP bullet load for Hodgdon 4895 in winchester brass and win Large Rifle primer.  

At the gunshow last weekend, I picked up some 115 grain 32-20 cast bullets with a diameter of 0.313 inches.  I emailed both Alliant asking about a suitable load in 2400 and haven't heard back from them.  

I also looked at the Hodgdon website and read about their use of H4895 at 60% of max for youth loads in certain bullets.  I emailed to Hodgdon about a good cast bullet load and they quickly responded with a suggested use of 50% of a full case load using H4895 for my cast bullet load.

I loaded some H4895 rounds from 39.0 to 40.1 grains based on measuring two different brands of cases at full capacity.  I hope to go the range this weekend to try them out.

[JBMauser]

Just an update.  The results I had with the 16gr of 2400 were so bad that I carried home a full 1/3 of the bullets I loaded and pulled them down.  filler or not.  The pits.  I will drop back to my Unique loads for now and I will start a test of 2400 from scratch.  Lots of 3 with 1/2 grain incriments and work up a ladder target and see what I can develop.  JB

[Robert357]

I guess I have something in common with JB.  I got back from the range.  I first tried shooting some of my 20 cast bullet loads for the 7.62x54R at the 100 yard target.  Big mistake.  Of ten shots, I only clipped the right edge of the target twice.

I next moved over the the 50 yard range.  Again I clipped the right edge of the targe twice.  Even with holding well to the left, I couldn't get on the paper.

twenty rounds and I have know idea where the bullets were going except somewhere to the right of the target.  

I am wondering if I should try again, of just go back to jacketed bullets.  Veru fristrating.  I fired some commercial ammo all nice in the "black" at 100 yards just to make sure that some how the barrel didn't get bent or something.  So I don't think that the rifle was messed up.  It was just that the cast bullets with half load were going in strange places.

[BobS]

For Robert:

I can see two things out of whack.   That much 4895 is W-A-Y too much for that little light cast bullet.  In fact 4895 is probably not a good choice for such a light bullet.   Also, the bullet is probably too light for really good results in the 7.62 x 54.  Without knowing anything about your barrel, the design, hardness and size of the bullets, all I can do is recommend that you start with a light charge of relatively fast burning powder.  If you are a pistolero and have some Unique on hand, I would try about 7 or 8 grains of Unique.  Q: Is this a gas check bullet, or plain base?

For J.B.

Spitzers are notoriously finnicky.  I have not yet had the opportunity to try any of my 311329 or 311365's yet, and I might actually get my "Aladin Special" before I get out with the old lymans.  Col Harrison used to say that spitzers only shot well with "carefully ajusted light charges of fast burning powder."  I know many others have pushed the envelope out in that since then, but I can't offer any first-hand experience ... yet.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Robert357]

The bullet is a Win 32-20, 115 grain cast bullet, without gas check.  It has lube rings, a SWC style, diameter of 0.313 inches and flat bottom of bullet. (I seated the base within the neck to prevent gas erosion of the base.)  The manufacturer (Liberty Bullets of Oregon) said it was pretty hard cast lead and should be good for plinking.

I gave the specifics to Hodgdon Power and asked them about a cast bullet load.  I told them I had H-4895, Titegroup, and Univeral Clays powders.  Hodgdon suggested a 50% of full case using H-4895 and said it would provide  appropriate velocity.  Actually, rather than interpreting I will quote:

"Use a 50% case full of H4895.  That will give you a
nice lower velocity cast bullet load.
Thanks,
Phil Hodgdon"  

I don't have Unique, but I have heard that Hodgdon Universal is pretty close.  

One of the things I wasn't sure about was crimping.  My pistol experience with lead SWC is that you really need a good crimp for the bullets to stabilize.

Thanks for the advice and any further suggetions

[BobS]

Robert:

Wow, and I thought they knew what they were talking about at Hodgdon.

A plain base bullet in a larger capacity case like the 7.62x54R needs to be kept under about 1400 fps, regardless of how hard the alloy might be.  Your load of 4895 is probably pushing that light bullet out at well over 2000 fps.  By comparison the old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (1957 edition) listed a velocity of 2200 fps with 311465 (a 120 grain gas check bullet) and 34 grains of 3031; and 2225 fps with 36 grains 4064.  These were listed as absolute maximum loads with those powders ... canister 4895 was not on the market at that time, but the burn rate would be between those two.

I am not familiar with Universal.  You will need a fairly light charge of fast burning powder to keep the velocity to about 1400 fps without leading.  A bullet that light will give good groups at 50 yards, and may be acceptable at 100.   I have a "tin can" load for .308 that uses Ideal (Lyman) 311410, which is a plain-base 130 grain round nose bullet.  In the .308 case, I use 5 grains of Red Dot.  At 50 yards, the groups are little knots less than an inch, but at 100 yards, they start to show vertical dispersion.  I expect you may find the same with your bullet.  

To realize the potential of your rifle, a gas check bullet of 180-200 grains would work better.  They are available already cast, gas-checked, lubed and sized to .311 or .312, if you are not yet casting your own.  Those  bullets should  group well in your rifle with 28 to 32 grains grains of 4895.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[LAH]

The 50% case full is a standard answer for both IMR and H-4895 when using jacketed bullets for reduced loads in larger cases. I've never tried this using cast bullets though. I have found in 30-06 size cases that 2400 works great with gas checked bullets. Most people like Unique for the plain base. No help here with Titegroup or Clays.

[Robert357]

Bobs/LAH

Thanks for the feedback.  If the H-4895 was really pushing the cast bullet at over 2000 fps, then that might explain the lack of being able to figure out where it was going.  (It was going all over the place).

At the next gun show to, I will see what they have available in heavier and gas check cast bullets and maybe give it another try.  Since I also have a pound of 2400 (for heavy 357 Mag loads) I might try using that as well as some H-4895.

Actually, I think I will look for some cast bullet books at the next gunshow as well, so I have a bit of a data base to work from on suggested loads.

Oh and the other Hodgdon powder I have is Universal Clays, which use to be called Universal, and differs from H-Clays.  I know that is confusing, but they reformulated Universal to make it shoot cleaner from what I understand and now call it Universal Clays, even though they have a powder that is different and called Clays.  Go figure.  I just hope that when Hodgdon adjusts the IMR line of powders, they don't add even more confusion to the world of reloading.  

Thanks again.

[Larry Gibson]

Robert357

Yes, as others have said that H4895 load is way to much for that 32-20 bullet.  So is 2400 for that matter.  As stated it is a very fine powder for 150-180 gr bullets but is not that good for lighter ones.  I use 4895 for 170 t0 220 gr bullets with the best success.

If you want an outstanding plinking and small game load with that bullet try 3.2 gr of Bullseye with no wads or fillers.  It will run 800-900 fps and will give surprising accuracy to 100 yards and even 200 yards.  If you want to get up into the 1400 fps which as stated is about max for PB bullets work up to about 5-6 gr of Bullseye in .5 gr increments watching for accuracy to go south.  

I use 90-118 gr cast bullets in all my .30 and .31 cal rifles from .30 carbine to '06 and from 7.62x39 to 7.62x54R, 7.65 and .303s.  I have found that Bullseye performs the best within the velocity paramiters of those lighter weight PB cast bullets.  It burns clean, has little position sensitivity, provides the best accuracy and is economical.  With commercial hard cast bullets with the hard wax lubes I have always gotten leading in the throat no matter the powder or other compnants.  I wash it off with Coleman fuel and tumble lube the bullets with a light coat of Lees liquid Alox, no leading at all then.

Larry Gibson

[Joe Kool]

My experience using 2400 with cast bulets has been mixed. Most guns I tried it in gave only fair resualts, at best. But I once owned a 30/06 that shot 1.25" groups at 100 yds. with 2400 and Lyman #311466. In most guns, I start with IMR-4759. It's a bulky powder, taking up a lot of space for it's weight, so I don't have to use fillers. In the 30/06, 20-21 gr. with bullets from 130-220 gr. will usually produce fair, if not good groups. Most groups will range from 1-1/4" to 2-1/4" at 100 yds.. Velocity is around 1700 fps.. One of my favorite loads in the 30/06, is 25.5 gr. of 4759, with the 130 gr. Lee bullet, cast from wheel weights + 2% tin. Primer is CCI 200. The velicity is 2350 fps., and the groups average 1-1/8" at 100yds. I hollow point the bullets, and use this load for shooting ground hogs. It's deadly out to 250 yds. I never even tried to fine tune this load, it shot so well from the start, I just loaded it and went hunting. A little playing with the charge or the primer could improve it. I've loaded calibers from 22 to .35 with good results, most of the time. Sometimes I find a better powder for a caliber/gun, but I start with 4759. Most of the time it gives at least acceptable resaults.  

[Robert357]

I went to the range today with a bunch of cast bullet loads.  Thank you all for the great advice.

Last weekend I went to the local gun show and picked up some 155 grain and 175 grain 0.311 cast bullets designed for gas checks from the folks who sold me the 115 grain bullets.  

I used my 0.311 Lee Lube & sizing die to seat Hornady 30 cal gas checks on them and size them with Javalen lube.  They had a Brinell Hardness of 20 and according to the folks who made them so did the 115 grain bullets.

According to the Lee Cast Bullet Hardness method, that means I should load them so that the powder produces a pressure of about 25,700  psi.  

Using the Lee Reloading manual and the .308 Winchester cartridge values that meant that

155 gr bullet = 31 grain of H4895, 2050 fps
175 gr bullet = 32.9 gr of H4895, 2150 fps
115 gr bullet = about 24 gr H4895, ?

The Winchester .308 case is fairly close in size to the 7.62x54R case.

I also loaded up some 115 grain bullets using
5, 6, and 7 grains of Hodgdon Tightgroup.

I spent several hours prior to going to the range, really cleaning the barrel of the rifle to get out all lead from my last episode and any copper that might be in the barrel.

I was amazed!!!!

Both the 155 and 175 grains formed reasonably tight (fist sized) 5 shot paterns on the paper at 50 yards.  Low, but that I can correct with the sights.

The 115 grain with the H-4895 was so-so.
The 5 grain and 7 grain Tightgroup with the 115 grain bullet was not as good as the heavier load, but very respectable!

Now I can work on fine-tuning things.
Thanks a lot for the advice.  The 5 grain pistol powder loads sounded like I was firing a 22 on the range.  

Today was a lot of fun!

[jh45gun]

Robert Most load books list the 762x54 so you should not have to resort to using info for the 308 case and Lyman has most cast load info. Some load books do not have any if they do not sell cast bullets. Also I have to comment on powder companies I would guess for their own interest they are going to reccomend a load that uses up some powder every load in stead of using the miserly loads that we can get out of 2400, Unique, ect ect ect. Jim

[Robert357]

Well, it was a beautiful sunny day at the range today.  I went there with two sets of ladder load work-ups for 7.62x54 R Russian cast bullets for my MN 1891/30.

My MN 1891/30 with the rear sight all the way down shoots dead center with a 6PM hold at 100 yards on an NRA target using handloaded 180 grain  Remington Corelokt bullets and 41.8 grains H4895.

My first ladder test was 20 rounds of H-4895 with two rounds each and differing by 0.3 grains.  (i.e. 1=31.5, 2=31.5, 3=31.8, round 4=31.8, 5=32.1, etc.)  They went from 31.5 to 34.2 grains.  Sweet spot with a 175 grain, gas-checked, cast lead bullet was at 33.0 and 33.6 grains,  Adjusting sigths to a 400 meter/yard rear sight setting had them dead center on the bullseye at 100 yards with a 6pm hold.  Recoil was present, but modest.  This load was created based on the Lee Reloading manual suggested pressure assoicated with cast bullets of a BN=20 factor.  (P.S. yes there are full powder loads in various reloading manuals for jacketed bullets, and a few for very limited powders in cast bullets.  The Lee Reloading book gave case pressures for 30-30, .308 and 30-06 cases with different powders and load amounts.  That is why I used the .308 case in my above post---it had pressures for different amounts of H4985 and a 175 grain cast bullet.)

My second ladder test was 12 rounds of Alliant 2400 powder and 155 grain gas-checked, cast bullets.  Two rounds and 0.3 grain difference between sets.  The sweetspot was between 15.3 and 15.6 grains of Alliant 2400 powder.  With the rear sight adjusted to the 500 yard mark they were dead on with a 6 pm hold at 100 yards.  Recoil was very very light, but more than the TiteGroup loads I described earlier.

I think that about 16 grains of Alliant 2400 powder is a pretty good cast bullet load, if it is a gas checked bullet, well lubed, and fairly heavy.

[Tallyman]

I ran out of 2400 and substituted 15.9 grains of H-110.  I got better results and now prefer H-110.

If anyone wants a copy of the C.E. Harris article CAST BULLET LOADS FOR MILITARY RIFLES, send a request directly to RHD80962@juno.com for a free email copy. Put "Cast Bullets Loads" in the subject line.

Tallyman

[Robert357]

Tallyman

Thank you for the article reprint.  I wish I would have had it earlier as it provided a whole lot of great advice on everything from althernate powders (with rough equivalent weights of powders) to advice on bullet hardness and size of bullets relative to the bore.  I now have a much better understanding of what I did right and wrong and some things I could change in the future.

I highly recommend reading it to everyone.  Thank you again for making it available.

[txpete]

I started using AA5744 in my milsurps(and 45/70)with the lee 160 gr .312
gc sized .311 the AA5744 has turned the tighest groups.just a heads up on a good powder.
pete

[jaberegg]

I've been shooting cast bullets out of a lot of different calibers for a lot of years. I always do the same test for each rifle I shoot cast in. Tip the bullet nose down, place it in the gun and shoot a 3-shot group, then sit the case on the bench so the powder is towards the primer then shoot another 3-shot group. Almost always those bullets with the powder close to the bullet shoot high an those with the powder towards the primer shoot lower. Try this test yourself, then talk about position sensitive. Fillers, yea they work, for me I don't want to waste my time putting them in, too much extra work for me.