Author Topic: Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy at 600-1000 yards)  (Read 2126 times)

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy at 600-1000 yards)
« on: December 06, 2003, 04:09:57 AM »
Donna -

I am in the process of drafting the design of a VLD boolet (to be cast) in standard .30 caliber for Aladin (whom also posts from time to time on GBO).

In the process of using several different boolets as models I've noticed some differences in how the nose is curved.

I assume that for stability that it's a good thing to have the rear of the boolet that engraves into the rifling longish with the nose somewhat shortish.    

But when it comes to curving the nose I've noticed on one design there are three distinct rates of curvature and four on another.  (Determined by fitting an arc to the image scanned into a CAD drawing.)

How much does the shape/size of the nose affect the BC?  Should it be extremely pointed or can it be rounded?  

Regarding the ogive, it seems that almost everything is tangential to the cylindrical section.  

So what shape should be employed between the nose and the cylindrical portion for the highest ballistic coefficient?

Is there a ratio of lengths of ogive to cylendrical portion that should be sought after?

At the tail, it is likely to be gas checked.  Not much for design options.

Thanks,
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Donna

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2003, 09:10:50 PM »
Cat Whisperer, :D

I noticed that this bullet is to be cast while I am a were that some people like to mix casting and swaging and that there is a purpose and place for casting alone, this is a swaging forum. But I will, never the lease, endeavor to answer your question.

With the un-pleasantries out of the way, your question recalls a flood of bullets shapes and designs. I will give you the information that you need but I will leave the decision of the design in your capable hands.

There are three basically different types of ogives out of four basically different nose shapes:

1. Tangential ogive is a constant curvature of a circle of radius “S” and is tangent to the shank.

2. Secant ogive is a tangential curvature that is offset of the ogive slightly to one side and brings it back, shortening the nose without changing the curve. This means the ogive curve joins the shank at some slight angle, so it is no longer tangent to the shank.

3. Elliptical ogive is an elongated circle that the angle is constantly changing, has two focus points, and is tangent to the shank. A circle is an Ellipse that the two focus points are at the same place in the ellipse.

4. Cone is a straight angle from the shank to the tip of the point.

And their variations like the truncated cone, the hollow point, the open tip, the Sears-Haack, the 3/4 power-law, the paraboloid, and others. All these nose shapes exhibit different drag coefficients as the velocity increases from subsonic to hypersonic. But there is one trend in common to all shapes and that is the longer the nose is the lower the drag coefficient will be. But like all things there is a limit and a trade off.

All ogival nose shapes are generated by circular arcs of radius “R”. Rt is the radius of a tangent ogive nose whose length is the same as the actual nose. This might sound a little confusing but please bear with me and hopefully it will make since. A tangent ogive will have a nose of Rt / R = 1, while a conical nose may be considered to have an ogive with an infinite radius of Rt / R = 0 and a secant ogive will have a radius that lies somewhere in between of 0 < Rt / R < 1. At high supersonic speeds; a secant ogive of Rt / R = 0.5 will generate the lowest drag coefficient, this is for any tangent of 1 there will correspondingly a secant that the curve lies at 0.5, half way between the tangent and a cone, while the tangent shows the highest drag. For the low supersonic speeds the same holds true for the curves that lies in the secant ogive but the difference is not as pronounced. In the subsonic speeds the tangent of Rt / R = 1 shows a lower drag coefficient than either the conical or the secant.

The tip of a bullet makes a difference on the drag coefficient as well.

1. The more that the tip is truncated the more the drag increases while the effect of small bluntness, meplat diameter less than .1 caliber, is insignificant.

2. The effect on drag of blunting the projectile nose by opening up the nose contour while maintaining the length at supersonic speeds, for small opening of the meplat gives lower drag than the sharp point nose. The melpat diameter that gives the lowest drag varies with the flight Mach number, the nose length, and the nose shape but in general a Mel pat diameter of 0.10 to 0.15 calibers is a very good choice over a wide range of Mach numbers. At supersonic speeds, an increased hemispherical tip, instead of a melpat gives a slight further reduction in drag.

The shank of any bullet should be at lease one caliber in length but that is normally easy to accomplish.

Now we come to the tail end of our discussion along with our bullet, the boattail. The difference between a flat base and the boattail is insignificant at velocities above the speed of sound and at relatively short distances, within 300 yards. But at longer distances and were the velocities will drop below the speed of sound for the majority of the range the boattail becomes a very significant way to reduce the drag coefficient. While the sporting industry has popularized the nine-degree angle boattail, research has shown that a seven-degree angle will give about a two percent lower total drag. But a boattail steeper that ten degree angle will destroy the boattail effectiveness as a drag-reducing device. While it is true the longer the boattail is the lower the drag coefficient will be it is also true that the flight dynamic instability will increase. For this reason I would suggest that one would keep the boattail length not to exceed one caliber.

As you can see there is no one answer to the question of which shape has the lowest drag like there is no one bullet construction is the best for all shooting situation. I do hope this helps.

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2003, 03:10:40 AM »
WOW!

SHAZAM!

GOLLY GEE!

As I had hoped, you came through with a well organized, to-the-point listing of the key principles!

I am in awe!  Thanks so much.  What you have written gives us the principles on which to start making decisions.  I'm sure that there will be many more questions as we address each of the issues.  

Regarding the cast vs. swaged: I figured that even if WE are going to cast these, the principles of boolet DESIGN would be germain to both forums.

THANKS again, more questions will certainly follow.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Donna

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2003, 02:55:32 AM »
Hello, :D

Those lube grooves are going to make the bullet loose velocity faster because of the formation of extra waves thereby lowering the BC. The same thing can be seen in the shadowgraphs of a jacketed bullet at the crimping groove, to a lot less of a degree.

I could be wrong but what I think your referring to with the Laupua 30's in 185 or 170 BT are the Rebated Boattails, which are superior to the conventional boattails normally seen by the big commercial bullet makers. The reason they make bullets that are not totally proper for the shooting conditions are two fold. First, it is what people think will sell as they were told by the gun industry through advertising and gun writers imaginations. And lets face it they don’t really care about us they just want your money. Secondly, people will pick the wrong bullet for reloading and accept whatever results come their way. Not to insult anyone directly but face it this world is filled with a lot of very stupid people. That’s why there are so many politicians. They rely on that stupidity for their livelihood, but that’s another topic. :roll:

Q. Do you feel my guestimate of .140 for the Laupau heel is in the ballpark?
A. I don’t know.

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2003, 04:23:36 PM »
Donna -

Thanks for the detailed information regarding boolet design.  We're on the road to having moulds made:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=503701&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=21&fpart=1

(if it works, otherwise the cast bullet forum of accurateloading.com - 30-210 HBC trk/A posting and others).

In particular your explanation of how to do the secant ogive was very helpfull - I offset the tangent ogive by .100 in one direction and a very small amount perpendicular to it.

(I again realize that this is a SWAGING forum, but this is a design project wherein the principles apply to both processes.)

We'll find out in the next several months what the actual BC turns out to be.

Again, thanks.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Donna

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2003, 12:46:04 PM »
:D

I agree and that is why I answered your post. I am into swaging not casting but before that I am an Aeroballistic Engineer, promoting the design of projectiles among other things dealing with Aeroballistics.

Those two big lube grooves are going to give you a lot of wave formation to decrease the BC. But you do what you can. This is only one reason why I swage bullets and never pun in those #$& crimp grooves.

The bullet looks good for a cast. :-) One of those people on the other forum commented on the angle or lack of an angle on the grease grooves. I have herd of problems in shooting, I forgot now what the problem was, with the angles that are cut that facilitates the cast bullet to come out of the mold. The problem was in reference to the magma engineering’s cast bullet machines. You don’t make a bullet look good, you make it work the best and if it also looks good well better for you.

Donna

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline Donna

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2003, 03:36:20 PM »
Hello Aladin,

Are you going to have a laboratory test the BC or are you going to do it yourself? If you are going to do it yourself what type of a test bed are you using and type of setup?

Donna
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline Donna

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2003, 12:18:05 AM »
So you’re going to find the starting velocity and ending velocity over a 100-yard spacing, two chronographs, four-sky screen method. There is a lot of room there for spacing error, first there are the error involving each of the two chronographs then there is the error over the 100-yard spacing. You do know that the 100 yards is actually measured in the middle of each sky screens? What chronographs are you planning to use? And how are you going to measure the distances?

Donna
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2003, 01:22:07 AM »
Ahhh the questions.  Keep the questions coming (Donna & Aladin!).

I want to know the effects of the grooves on BC.

Is it more important to a low BC to have one or two wide grooves or many narrow grooves if a given amount of lubricant is needed?

What is the effect on BC regarding the leadin/out to the groove?  I.e.: is a tapered leadin/out or  a rounded edge better for high BC?  

We've all seen jacketed bullets with and without the canalure, is there any difference in BC just by changing the depth?

I am going to presume that this is just like acurizing a rifle.  A gunsmith (tool and die maker, Olympic pistol cometitor) friend of mine acurized a Rem 700 - did about 7 different things - each of which wouldn't be obvious in effect BUT the combination made it the most accurate rifle I've every owned.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Donna

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2003, 11:35:36 PM »
Hello, :D

Sounds like your guessing to me. Shooting cast bullets or non-cast bullets, a trajectory is a trajectory and the laws of physics are still the same. Your shooting may not be very precise but the calculations of trajectory and the BC that comes from that can be as precise as you want them to be. If you were going to guess than guess but don’t say it is one BC if your methods are so shaky that a guess would be a better representation of the true BC. :roll:

The article that you sited on the increased BC of boattail bullets and employing a small meplat to increase BC is nice and says the same thing as I have stated above. The original articles in the research are by far better and more informative but at times rather dry. They are: “Boundary Layer Theory” by H. Schlicting, 1955, “Some Aerodynamic Effects of Blunting a Projectile Nose” by E.R. Dickinson, 1964 – 1965, “Optimization of Boattails for Small Arms Bullets” by B.P. Kneubuhl, 1983, “On Projectiles of Minimum Wave Drag” by W.R. Sears, 1947, “Optimal Projectile Shapes for Minimum Total Drag” by Hager, De Jarnette, and Moore, 1977, and more.

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline Donna

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2003, 01:56:36 PM »
Hello Aladin, :D

Yes, I tend to agree with you on the BC it is a concept that has out lived its usefulness. There are much better ways to accomplice the same thing. But people are stubborn and do not like to change their ways, and yes I’m one of those people too. :roll:  I guess what I was trying to say, quite often not in the best way, is that cast bullet shooting is a much of a precision art and science as shooting jacketed bullets are/is. If your going to do something make sure you do it right.

BTW, no insult was intended nor was any insult taken on my part. 8)

You have a happy Christmas and a very merry New Year. LOL :)

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Boolet design for very low drag (accuracy a
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2004, 04:41:10 PM »
Donna -

Just wanted to say thanks, again, for your help in understanding the ballistics in this process of design.  The moulds arrived today and we'll see the results of our efforts soon.

Thanks,
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
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