Author Topic: 280 problems (Read 1492 times)

tacomaj · « **on:** April 27, 2004, 03:49:42 PM »

I have bought two new 280's and had the same problem with both.
After several boxes of rounds both had problems with the barrel coming loose. The first one came back from H &R with a new barrel installed. I never could get any accuracy out of it again so I traded it off for a new one in synthetic stock. I worked up my loads to where I got 1 to 1 1/2 MOA, everything lookin good and wham the barrel got loose. Had a lot of play in it when locked up and a little play locked. Called Cust. service and the man said the barrel lock up was probably broke. I also have a 243 and 25.06 Ultra that are very nice. Good shooters so far.

Any body else experienced this problem?

Tacomaj

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #1 on:** April 27, 2004, 05:41:31 PM »

Quote from: tacomaj

After several boxes of rounds both had problems with the barrel coming loose.

Sounds like a pressure or headspace issue. Did this happen with factory ammo or handloads?
Now you've got me wondering if I should start shooting my new 280 as is, or if I should immediately convert to 280 ackley improved to cut down on "bolt thrust".
Mitch

Fred M · « **Reply #2 on:** April 27, 2004, 10:11:38 PM »

Mitch.
Pressure acts in all direction. There is no freebee in AI chambers less back thrust is strictly hearsay. Pressure analisis proofs different. I have fired many AI cartrides and when the pressure is up you know about it. The bolt handle sticks just the same as in any other cartridge.

There is no logical explanation why it should be different. Perhaps you all have seen flattened primers they are just as common in AI cases as in others when the pressure is up. If there was no back pressure they would not be flat.

Take a 44 Mag. Revolver with an almost straight case it locks up easy with 15.0 gr of XXX brand powder.

Fred M.

scruffy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:09:45 AM »

I'm not going to get into the AI discussion because I see it as a side topic.

The main topic, as I see it anyway, is there an issue with 280 handis? I've heard no other reports of this in the 25-06, 270, 30-06 or 35 whelen loosening up after being fired, but again this is the first time I've heard of a 280 loosening up.

Is there something that makes the 280 case in the -06 family different?

Tacomaj, you said you worked up your loads to 1" to 1.5" accuracy, what were the loads you were shooting when the action loosened up???

later,
scruffy

safetysheriff · « **Reply #4 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:54:08 AM »

The 1996 Gun Digest contains an article about Ackley's Improved cartridges that is rather informing. It speaks about his experiments and the excellent results he obtained with reducing back thrust and case stretching. The article offers a plausible explanation in that a (more) tapered cartridge acts like a self-actuating wedge and tries to back out of a chamber exerting more pressure on the back of the chamber.

The article is by Rob Lucas. It should be required reading!

Fred M · « **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2004, 06:19:46 AM »

safety sheriff
Case stretching is reduced by the 40 deg shoulder and very much enhanced by the 17 deg shoulder of the the 06 type. The AI cases will stretch hardly any if loaded properly. Yes the Handies can take it but for how long? Hell these guns even shoot loose with shotgun loads if you use enough of them. I know because I have a 12 gauge that is very Lo-o-o-se.

You just find me scientific proof of this less back thrust theory, theory that is all it is and wishful one at that.

James B · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2004, 06:53:49 AM »

I have an older 280 NEF. I have had no problems with mine as yet. I don't shoot it a lot but when I need a long range shooter I reach for it. It will group around one inch to oneand a half inch but I have not worked up many different loads. I am currently shooting the 120 grain Sierra pro-hunter and the 140 grain Nosler Ballisitic tip. It shoots them both well but the Nosler shoots a tad tighter groups. I don't load it to the Max very often. For deer hunting I load the 120 grain Sierra to about 2850 fps. I have not clocked the Noster load yet. I really like the gun but I may get a 280 barrel for my Encore soon. I just bought my first Encore. I shot contenders for many years.

handi35 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 28, 2004, 08:24:30 AM »

I have shot my 280 rem better then 200 times with fairly hot handloads before rechambering it to 280 AI. The same receiver has also went through 150 or so rounds of Buffalo bore 350 gr and equally stout handloads in a 45/70 barrel with no problem.
I would check for wear on the hinge pin and barrel lug and would bet you will find the stress showing on the barrel lug. the bolt thrust in the H&R is absorbed by the front of the barrel lug and the back of the hinge pin.
I had H&R put a 308 win barrel on my 280 receiver at the same time as the 45/70 barrel. I then rechambered the 308 to 300WSM at about 90 rounds I noticed a space starting to form at the top of the barrel and receiver. the blueing is not wore off of the hinge pin but the front of the barrel lug shows more wear then my 25/06 on another receiver that bought used has close to 1000 rounds shot in it. the 280AI and 45/70 barrel still fit tight.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #8 on:** April 28, 2004, 11:20:00 AM »

handi35, so is it possible that the looseness and fit issue is with the barrel lug and not with the receiver hinge pin? If that is so could it be checked by putting on another barrel that was fitted for the receiver and checking if that second barrel showed any looseness of fit?....<><.... :?

handi35 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 29, 2004, 05:17:18 AM »

Mitch
If you have another barrel already set for the same receiver as your 280 barrel that is starting to loosen up and the other barrel is still tight the process of elimination says that the change must be in the loose barrel not in the receiver if the change was in the receiver all barrels on it should be getting loose.
If you have a set of calipers you could measure the distance from the front of the barrel lug bottom of groove to face of barrel. use a good straight edge.
It would be nice to know what the Rockwell hardness of the barrel lug should be.

handirifle · « **Reply #10 on:** April 29, 2004, 04:51:09 PM »

hnadi35
I must say I'm not suprised of your barrel getting loose. That is trusting that hinge pin setup a LOT with the 300 WSM. It is loaded to far higher pressures than the reccomended max of 50K for the Handi.

Fred M · « **Reply #11 on:** April 29, 2004, 07:57:48 PM »

Eh man, we are getting into some fancy chambers

The base area of the 300WSM is .243 square inches. Diameter is .556".

The 308 or 30-06 is .472 diameter at the base or .174 square inches.

This relates to 28.4 % more back thrust on the standing breech for the 300 WSM. That applies even if both cartridges are loaded to the same psi pressure. The 300 WSM operates at and above 62 kpsi.

Don't know what this is in kcup, since there is no accurate conversion. But it is well above pressures for the Handy.

Like the man said they can take it, the Handy that is. This is a testimonial of strength. Or rather how well they stretch.

In my opinion the 300 WSM is not a save chamber in the Handy.

Fred M

handi35 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2004, 04:48:19 AM »

Fred M
I agree with you the 300WSM is a bit to much for the Handi rifle action, thats why I now have a very impressive $200 jack handle. my partner and I did this barrel and rechamber at the time all the speculation was going around that Rossi was coming out with the 270WSM in there single shot. I have shot both products and belive the Handi rifle is the better action. We wanted an amped up 06 for a back pack sheep rifle it was an interesting project while it lasted. some day when we have time we will put an over sized hinge pin in a Handi rifle receiver hard face the barrel lug on the 300WSM and start over.
Handirifle
I will not use the receiver for my 280AI for the 300WSM next time as the receiver is still good and tight on the 280 and 45/70 set to it and they are my two favorite barrels.

handirifle · « **Reply #13 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:31:11 AM »

Handi35
You might look into the 30-06 AI if you want more power. From all I have read the straighter case walls of the AI conversion actually causes LESS back thrust and more velocity to boot.

If you still want more in a singleshot, go with the G2 or Ruger #1 I wouldn't trust anything else with a 300 WSM personally.

Fred M · « **Reply #14 on:** May 05, 2004, 09:25:33 AM »

Handi 35.
It is amazing how strong these actions are. The newer ones must use some pretty good steel. But there is a limit of how much H&R is willing to spend on action steel. Some real tough steel yields 150 kpsi but it is very expensive. A larger hinge pin would have to be at least 35% bigger than what is there now. A surface treatment of the lug does not do much.

What constitutes a back pack sheep rifle is of course a long debated story. An old time friend who was an avid sheep hunter and bagged several full curl Big Horn sheep. He used a 5.5 lbs rebuild 303 Jungle carabine with an adjustable peep sight.

If I was packing a Handi sheep rifle it would be a 22" 25cal or 7mm-08AI.
When I was hunting sheep years ago I had a 7x61 S&H on a Mauser action, at least 3 lbs too heavy.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2004, 04:01:53 PM »

I do not agree with how the hinge pin is feeling the effects of recoil according to some on this post. The standing breech is working with the chamber of the barrel to hold the brass case in place when the rifle is fired. The hinge pin keeps the barrel locked in place inside the frame when the rifle starts to rise up from recoil. That's its biggest job, as I see it, related to holding a rifle from coming apart as it's fired.

I agree that the .300 wsm is not good for Handi's because of the much larger case thrust it applies to the standing breech. I wouldn't recommend anyone doing a .300 wsm re-chambering.

The Ackley Improved cartridges do not stretch as much, I believe, because they do not act like wedges trying to back out of the chamber under the pressures developed when firing the rifle. But, naturally, there is equal pressure exerted in all directions on the inside of the brass case when the rifle is fired, and some of it is transferred to the standing breech of the rifle. Some of it is just trying to stretch the brass case, I believe; much like a loose rimmed case that is repeatedly stretched open/expanded when fired in a revolver. (I've read that it takes 6,000 psi just to expand a .44 mag' brass case against the chamber wall of a revolver cylinder.)

Opinions?

MSP Ret · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2004, 04:50:10 PM »

I also am experiencing an issue with a loose barrel which seems to revolve around a .280 barrel. I have shot exactly one box (20 rounds) of Federal 140 grain factory loads out of a short (19 inch) .280 barrel in working up a shorts "woods rifle". The barrel was not fitted by the factory but the overall fit on the frame was excellent and headspace was within limits. It seems the .280 barrel now feels a bit loose when unlatched (open position) on the frame but is still nice and tight when the action is closed. The barrel may have to be crowned but even with it's rough and quite uneven crown is shooting about 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards, acceptable for a close range woods gun and I am sure that will tighten up with a better sighting method. Other barrels fitted to this receiver ( a new "high intensity receiver) also now seem to have a slight bit of "wobble" when open but are nice and tight when the action is closed. Any thoughts? Is this a .280 problem as someone here said it might be?....<><.... :grin:

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2004, 05:06:56 PM »

safetysheriff.
Where do you suppose the stretching takes place, and what holds the barrel against the standing breech. Two places of importance, the under lug and the hinge pin. Both will take the pressure and have to work in unison. They will both give or set back if the pressure is too high.
Since the simple lock up is at the bottom of the barrel the pressure will induce an up ward moment in the joint. This is why it is important to have a clean and good fitting lock recess. High pressure can easy work on that lock and loosening it if not 100% engaged.

I think the H&R rifle is a pretty good one I am still waiting for my 25-06.
There are lots of loads for it that operate at 49Kcup

Providing the lock up is tight the AI will not stretch much and will allow only very minimal brass flow forward when loaded reasonable. If the lock up is loose the case will expand against the standing breech. If the clearance is more than the spring back of the brass you will have trouble to break open the rifle.

No question the AI design is much superior to the machine gun design of all the cartridges used by the military, old and new.

You think we got that thread pretty well thrashed to shreds? :grin: Fred M.

Fred M · « **Reply #18 on:** May 06, 2004, 05:29:03 PM »

MSP Ret.
The 280 Rem is not any different than any other cartridge of this type as a matter of fact the 280 Rem is mostly a bit under loaded because there are quite a few 280 Rem Autos and pump guns around which are not as strong as bolt actions. What you describe is not atributable to the 280 Rem cartridge unless they are way too hot. Norma loaded some HiVel ammo for the 280 Rem.

It has to be something to do with the rifle I think. I suggest you hand load the cases to 49 Kcup and you should be ok. Hodgdon has some nice loads with slow burners like H1000 and H4831 at 48500 cup.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #19 on:** May 06, 2004, 05:33:57 PM »

Thanks for the input FredM. I was thinking of loading it down a bit anyway since it will be used for 100 yards or under most of the time. I bought the Federal ammo in a rush to shoot it and to get some brass. Any thoughts about the slight looseness or "wobble" in the barrel on the receiver when the action is open and the barrel is fully opened and left to hang as the buttstock and receiver are held parallel to the ground?...<><.... :grin:

Fred M · « **Reply #20 on:** May 06, 2004, 07:48:06 PM »

MSP Ret.
Some thin brass shim stock glued to inside of the receiver on both sides with 2 Ton epoxy should take the wobble out. Brass shim stock comes in all sizes from 1-10 Thou. Make sure you use it on both sides so the breech stays square.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #21 on:** May 07, 2004, 02:07:12 AM »

Thanks FredM, But what I am interested in getting from you and others is any possible answers to why it is loose now, after the .280 rounds and not after shooting a couple of rounds of other various caliber bullets through it. What if any damage might have been done to the receiver or barrel and what if any remedy is there, if in fact one is needed. Should I continue to shoot it and is it safe???....<><.... :grin:

handi35 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 07, 2004, 05:14:06 AM »

MSP Ret
If there is no gap developing between barrel and receiver in locked position and the rifle is not trying to come open on firing it would IMHO be safe to shoot. If other barrels set to the same receiver are still tight the only logical place to be showing wear is the groove at the front of the barrel lug.
Try a bit of shim stock between the forend and the receiver this should tighten the action up when in the open position and increase any gap between barrel and receiver when action is closed, no space no problem.
It seems that with the good receivers that stay tight on other barrels getting loose on 280 Rem Barrels that H&R must have got a run of 280 barrels with the metal in the barrel lug to soft.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #23 on:** May 07, 2004, 07:30:57 AM »

MSP Ret'
When I start work with a new Handi' I take the forearm and buttstock off the barrel, soak them in wood preservative and then put in two longer, reasonably-sized but larger-threaded, screws to hold the plastic 'keeper' on the back end of the forearm. I then lightly grease that 'keeper', the front of the frame, the hinge pin, and the ejector housing with moly'-type extreme pressure grease. I don't think NEF puts a large enough set of screws into the back of that forearm to hold that 'keeper' in place.

I have, as previouslyl posted elsewhere, also wiped the inside and outside of the barrel and ejector housing and frame with that extreme pressure grease before re-assembly with the forearm and buttstock. I then let the rifle sit for two weeks before degreasing the bore and shooting it for the first time.

So far I don't have any problems with looseness.

Hope this helps.

SS'

MSP Ret · « **Reply #24 on:** May 07, 2004, 02:47:18 PM »

Thanks Handi35 and SS, I just retuned from the range and have some guns to clean. Will try the .280 again next time out and see what happens....<><.... :grin: