Standing at the Crossroads....

[JPH45]

Well guys, here it is some 18 months after I brought home my 357 and 44, and a steady year since I have been working with cast boolits in 'em. Along the way I have managed to pick up a 30-30 and a 45-70, NEF's all of course.  I have, in that time, and to the best of my meager ability done everything possible to coax the best cast boolit accuracy from these rifles possible. Here is what I have learned.....

There is for all practical purposes a velocity ceiling of 1300 fps with cast boolits and the NEF barrels. I have seen 3 exceptions.....The first is the Magnus Bullet Co. # 704 300 grain 44 cal boolit. This one, over 18.5 grains of H110 traveled at 1460 fps and shot into an amazing 1". The sample I had is now gone, so I do not know that I can replicate that (part of the crossroad I stand at).....The second was in my 30-30 with a sample of 173 grain boolits from DJ, cast with a Lyman 31141 mold. Those boolits shot like a house afire into  1" traveling at a modest 1765 fps pushed by 20 grains of 5744......The third is my 45-70. I have no trouble pushing 405 grain boolits to 1580 fps and getting 1.5" groups using 50 grains of WC846.

Other than these, I have not yet been able to drive any cast boolit faster than 1300 fps and maintain something that could be called accuracy. In fact, most of the loads I use to achieve that are BELOW manual starting loads.

I am beginning to get tired of pursuing a goal that seems out of reach. I recently sent to DJ a couple of targets I have shot. The 357 Max using Lymans 195 grain round nose and 11.6 grains of #107 shot into 1. 375" or so. The combined groups (20 rounds if I remember) fired did not exceed 2.25". I used that same loading today and got a group not better than 3" for 15 rounds. Granted, any 3 of the 5 shot groups did not exceed 2" and 1 was certainly 1.25", it is well within my experience that 5 shots can be placed into 1.25" or so, but getting more than that into the same group borders on the miraculous.

So, here I stand. I have several loads using cast boolits that will easily suffice for shooting offhand at a steel plate so that I can develop a higher degree of hitting ability freehand, but the fastest and most consistantly accurate loads from any of these rifles come from jacketed bullets. I have one load fro my 30-30 that will put 3 shots into 1 hole, 5 into 7/8" at 2370 fps to boot!!!! (again the flyers are inconsistant, shots 2 and 3 will fly out, shots 1, 4, 5 go into one hole.) As my primary concern is basically recreational, but with the goal of maintaining and improving my shooting skills for hunting season, I am beginning to lean very heavily toward using jacketed for hunting and cast for plinking. The exception being the 45-70. With cast, it has all the repeatable accuracy it would ever need for hunting. With the others I see no logical reason to bind myself to cast for all purposes when it becomes increasingly clear that the rifles have some kind of built in limitation that keeps them from performing at ful velocity with cast. Perhaps, since I have 4 rifles to choose from, I may dedicate one or two to a strict diet of cast while the other two see nothing but jacketed.

I enjoy shooting cast, mainly because I am a COB, but I am pretty complete with trying to get silk purse performance from these sows ears rifles. These are not bad rifles for $200.00 bucks, but they are $200.00 rifles and their performance over the full spectrum of bullets, powder, primers, cases, velocity, weather, and seeming some times even the time of day bears that out.

[mag41vance]

Very well put. I'm glad to see I'm not alone on this one.
 Your quote,
 "As my primary concern is basically recreational, but with the goal of maintaining and improving my shooting skills for hunting season, I am beginning to lean very heavily toward using jacketed for hunting and cast for plinking."
Is the conclusion I had come to as well.

       Kudos JPH45,
                  RV

[Mac11700]

JPH45:

Question....have you tried any cast bullets from Cast Performance???I know you would rather cast your own...but...sometimes you just have to take a diffent path to get where you want to go,,, It doesen/t look like I'm going to get a 45-70 barrel this year and I have some I could spare you if you would like to try them....I had great luck with these from my Marlin1895GS...

These are their .459 diameter  WLNGC at 405 grains LBT series...

Mac

[Longcruise]

Seems to come down to the .357 and .44 that are most perplexing, no?

I've followed your tribulations with these two calibers but don't recall if you have tried any of the hard cast (talkin REALLY hard :grin:) bullets.  A .44 bullet that I've gotten great results with is the plain old vanilla 255 grain WC cast of wheel weights, soaked in the oven at 450 deg for 90 minutes and then dumped into cold water.  Let rest for two days and shoot.  Probably no "magic bullet" here but thought I'd throw it out there.

No exp with .357.

[Nightrain52]

Maybe I don't get the point but if you can get that kind of accuracy with jacketed bullets why would you want to shoot cast unless you have too for silhouette shooting. If the accuracy is that bad with the cast bullets seems to me it's a waste of lead and powder. Please don't take this the wrong way as I'm not trying to start something and I have never shot cast bullets in my life other than in 38spcl years ago. I know some people derive great joy in casting their own bullets but it seems these rifles are not capable of shooting them very well.

[Longcruise]

Well, for me it's part economy (or more shooting for the same money), and part just the enjoyment of finding "the load".

seems these rifles are not capable of shooting them very well/quote]

My 30-30 shoots very well with GC bullets.  I'd not hesitate to take a deer with my 150 gr GC load at 1800 fps.

Maybe I don't get the point

It's just another mutation of the shooting disease. :grin:   As these mutations progress they are more and more difficult to cure although I've experienced periods of remission as a result of spousal intervention. :-D

[handirifle]

JPH
I could never get my BC to shoot cast bullets of any type, weight or velocity.  Jacket bullets are another story.

[JPH45]

Nighttrain 52, There was a time, albiet long ago, that the only bullets I would shoot were jacketed. Then the gunshop back home ran a big sale on all their excess casting merchandise, I bought up all I could, a friend and I mined the pistol range backstop for lead, we had a big melt and cast session and I've been hooked ever since.

Quite possibly, I could get a clearer picture of my expectations of myself, cast bullets and NEF rifles if I could make a better distinction about where I want to go as a shooter. I'm not now nor ever will be a shooter focused on competition in any way. Been there, done that, don't have the resources or inclination to do it again. I have an outstanding social life....look around on a few few boards, you guys are it. There ain't nobody to impress with my awesome cast bullet making and shooting talents  :roll: (read that last sentence with lots of tongue in cheek sarcasm)
There is me, me alone and my own drive to exellence.

I've tried hard cast bullets in these rifles, I specifically bought 28 pounds of Linotype to give a try, to no avail. That is in fact the first metal I began shooting from these guns, and periodically I go back and try it again. The harsh reality is that these rifles are micro groove barrels. I recovered a bullet from my 30-30 fird yesterday, 6 lands and grooves, shallow, .002-.003" deep. There is no sign of the bullet stripping in the rifling, It just seems to be the nature of this rifling type that it will not shoot fast. Period.
I just don't like having to accept limitations.

But I also wonder if I am playing my cards smartest, if I limit myself to cast bullets alone. Take the example of the spike I shot this past season with the 357 Max and the XTP 180. Shot was at 25 yards, muzzle velocity of my load is 2060 fps. The shot struck squarely on the front leg bone just under the shoulder blade, and shattered it. The bullet went on to penetrate the heart, leaving a 1.5" exit would there, broke a rib on the far side and exited. It is possible that a cast bullet could do the same damage. It is comforting to have a bullet that you KNOW will do so.

JD Jones, writing of his 309 JDJ in the #2 Accurate manual says that using 150 grain Nosler Partitions with a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps, is good for animals up to 400 pounds at a maximum range of 300 yards. When one compares the ballistics of the 309 JDJ to the ballistics of the 30-30 (from a rifle) the two are ballistic twins. So, what JD is saying is that with a properly designed bullet and a muzzle velocity of 2200fps, my 30-30 is a 300 yard rifle. Almost sounds laughable, untill the source is taken into account. JD is no fool. And while JD has done a lot of work with cast bullets, notice that practically all his hunting loads are designed using jacketed bullets. Ever wonder why that is?

We have spent the last hundred years bringing jacketed bullets to a level of terminal ballistic performance that is actually quite remarkable. Why should I deny myself the use of that experience, research, knowledge and perfection to fill some ideal about the use of cast bullets created and promulgated by people I will never know? I am happy for those who get full velocity from cast bullets, but I know one thing, they ain't doing it with NEF's. Perhaps someday I will own a rifle that is capable of delivering full velocity and accuracy with cast bullets. Untill that day, I will will be plinking at a sedate 1200 fps or so with cast and cranking it up with jacketed when I head for the woods. Besides, shooting cast at those velocities, by barrels will last practically for ever, I can do all the shooting I enjoy, cheaply, and still have the best loads available when I am hunting.

[vick]

"The harsh reality is that these rifles are micro groove barrels."

JPH45,

You mentioned this in an ealier post:
" A factory gun would have a better value in a resale or to a collector, as well as would probably not be plagued with the crappy microgroove rifling of the NEF 357 Magnum issue rifles. "

Can you expound on this a little?  I'm just curious as to the differences.  Why would the micro-groove be less cast bullet friendly than the former method?  Forgive my ignorance if I am asking something I should know the answer to.

[handirifle]

Vic
The ballard cut or button rifling is slightly deeper and allows a soft cast bullet to conform/deform into the rifling better, thus stabilizing the bullet better.  It's almost like taking a tire off road with street only treads that are worn nearly off.  On the hard dry street they grip fine, but take them off road into the soft dirt and you go "slip sliding away", point being the micro groove is designed for jacketed bullets or at best very slow lead, like 22 rimfire.

In my opinion that is one reason the 17 HMR is more inherantly accurate than the 22 WMR, the rifling is too shallow for magnum speeds with lead but the HMR's jacketed bullets do fine.

[vick]

Thanks.  I guess sometimes the obvious answers really are the best ones.  I'm still experiencing the vodoo effect on some of this stuff   :-) .

[ratherbefishin]

I note the 45-70 Buffalo and 38-70 Target models say they come with ''tradional'' rifling- does that mean they would shoot cast bullets better than micro groove rifling?I assume they were originally designed for blackpowder and cast bullets

[handirifle]

ratherbe
I just looked, and the target model that says that about the rifling.  Might just be a ballard style rifling.  If that is the case it would handle lead much better.  Fire off an email to customer service and ask 'em.

[Longcruise]

Some random and highly debatable thoughts :grin:

I've tried hard cast bullets in these rifles, I specifically bought 28 pounds of Linotype to give a try, to no avail.

not necessarily the best choice in all cases and unnecessarily hard for most applications such as hunting, etc.  I'm sure you have heard it over and over but wheel weights do have a lot going for them and hardness levels are adjustable.  Hunting bullets up to 2000 fps should be acceptable at 12 bhn (air cooled and aged two weeks) and can be hardened a bit if desired.

Almost sounds laughable, untill the source is taken into account. JD is no fool. And while JD has done a lot of work with cast bullets, notice that practically all his hunting loads are designed using jacketed bullets. Ever wonder why that is?

I don't know siccum about jd jones, BUT as you said, take the source into account.  JD has a vested interest in promoting his products to as wide an audience as possible.  That means usisng readily available components.  Not everybody is inclined toward or equipped to fool around with cast.  Not taking a shot ad JD, just trying to think like a business man and If I were JD that would be my approach.

This has been, so far, my month to challenge "conventional wisdom".  One of those articles of "wisdom" is that micro groove barrels won't shoot cast.  I have no exp with micro groove.  My NEF 30-30 does not appear to me to be micro groove and that is the only NEF that I've shot cast out of.   But What are the actual arguments stating that micro groove will not shoot cast??  If conventional wisdom is set aside and the problem looked at without pre-conceptions, then how do the arguments against cast in MG stand up?  I recall when reading Veral Smith's book on cast bullet performance that in his opinion MG would shoot cast and do it very well.

If all else fails, just accept your guns accuracy for what it is.   I know for a fact having read a number of your posts that you re just too dang picky!   I had the same approach when playing with my Handi 223.  I was comparing those groups to expectations that were just too high.  I finally concluded that the rifle was perfectly acceptable and that it was time to lower my expectations and ask myself just what the heck is this rifle for?  Answer, fun shooting in the field and popping coyotes.  Surprisingly, every single ground squirrel I have ever pointed my 223 at has done a multiple back flip!  Further, when clay birds are set out at 200 meters and shot at from the bench they more often than not fly into pieces.  May not be MOA but it sure is MOC (minute of coyote) :-) [/b]

[JPH45]

Longcruise, you may well be right about my being too picky....I have come to basically the conclusion you suggest, accept my rifles accuracy for what it is and load as desired or required for the purpose at hand. In this thread, I was simply expressing my own internal dialouge about the radicl differences I find in these rifles ability to shoot a full velocity jacketed over cast. We are not talking about 30-06's and 270's and such. We are talking about chamberings in which the average maximum attained velocity seldom if ever exceeds 2200 fps. This is well within the world of normal cast bullet velocities, yet anytime I try to push the envelope beyond 1400 fps with cast I get blown out groups.

It really is not a problem. I just simply need to use cast to play with at low velocities, which appeals to the COB in me anyway. 700 rounds or more from a pound of powder is a lot of shootin' and a lot of fun. And then when I want to crank up the juice, I can simply load jacketed bullets. It seems that I was finding myself in the place of being "all or nothing" about the type of bullet I was shooting. There are some purists about cast bullets. As well , there are some purists about jacketed. We don't hear so much about the latter, afterall there ain't a whole lot to discuss about going to the store and buying 'em off the shelf, and casting generally doesn't appeal to people who are not basically tinkerers, amatuer, wannabe, and maybe even professional type engineers anyway.

As too just how much truth there is to the "microgroove barrels don't shoot cast" I cannot say beyond my own experience with the rifles I have. However, several reloading manuals make exactly such references, and even gunrag writers who poo-pooh the idea follw that with the caviet "If you can't get your microgroove barrel to shoot well with cast, have the throat leade angle changed to 1.5 degrees. This usually helps".

Perhaps someday, I will get a real burn for those smokepoles you enjoy so well and a great deal of this conversation will be mute. I've tried twice, and so far it just ain't in me yet.


Vick, I do not even know the process used to rifle microgroove barrels. I envision that it is a button drawn through the bore, just like button rifling, but there are a greater number of lands and grooves and the cutting depth is shallower. Ballard cut barrels generall have a groove depth of about .006", but these are cut one at a time, often using multiple passes for one groove. After each groove is cut, the barrel is indexed and the process started over again. With button rifling, a "button" having a full complement of cutters for the land/grooves desired is pulled through the barrel, cutting the all the grooves at once. There are no multiple passes. Marlin carried the concept to it's logical extreme, my barrel 44 barrel has 12 lands and grooves, the groove depth is app. .002" My 357 barrel has 8 lands and grooves with the same depth. 8 and 6 are the more common number of lands and grooves for these calibers.

Remington introduced button rifling  with the introduction of their model 721 chambered in 222 Remington. This was very close to 1950. American manufacturing was undergoing a huge upswing in process simplification. A man named Mike Walker (if memory serves) is credited with the 721 design, the development of the 222 Remington, and the development ot button rifling. Quite an accomplishment. You are probably too young to know who this man was, (no offense meant, please) but the 721 revolutionized rifle manufactuering, and the 222 Remington was the 22 PPC of it's day as well as being the parent case for the 223 Remington a.k.a. 5.56 Nato. For that step up we can thank one Gene Stoner, father of the black rifle we know as the AR-15/M-16. Another story........

Thanks guys for puttin' up with me.

[ScatterGunner]

this is a fun subject.

you will never get a cast bullet to shoot well, repeatedly, if you do not know three things, 1 - the elastic strength of the bullet, 2 - the tensile strength of the bullet,  and 3 - the chamber pressure.

if you load up a shell near or past the tensile strength of the buller, you get poor accuracy. why ?, because a large portion of the bullet turns to liquid as it begins to traverse the length of the barrel, gas check or not. this is caused by pressure. too much pressure !!!

what you want to do it find the point of elasticity of the bullet. that's the point where you subject it to a pressure that it minimally upsets it to fill the grooves of the barrel and maintain its' structure as it engages the rifling and goes down the barrel with out liquifying or permanently deforming.

the best thing i ever bought was a LEE brinell hardness kit, it's worth every penny and you can tune almost any cast boolit load using it as long as you know the approximate pressure .

the brinell hardness scale gives you the tensile strength, or ultimate compressive strength, of the bullet. you can't run pressures anywhere near this or you get junk, flyers, leading, etc.

so measure boolit hardness, and load per pressures seen for similar boolit weights.

one common myth is that gas checks let you shoot cast boolits at higher velocities, not true at all. if the gas check is following a glob of liquid alloy it will spin in the rifling, not the glob of alloy !

there are a bunch of supposed tricks, heat treating, straight linotype, gas checks, but you really need to know the basic parameters, 1,2 and 3, before you can predict and control bullet performance.

one thing you need to to do to get predictable results over the long run is to know your alloy, you should periodically measure the hardness and maintain that hardness for the loads you work up. regardless of what anyone says, you can get, old toothpaste tubes, linotype, plain old wheel weights or fishing sinkers to shoot good IF you know 1,2 and 3 !

sg

[Longcruise]

JPH, Have you ever slugged the barrels you are having problems with?  Once again, I have no exp messing with micro groove, but have heard/seen it said that MG tends to be somewhat oversize.  An undersize cast slug is generally not going to shoot even if it bumps up.

Scattergunner, that was an interesting disseration but I must inquire as to the source of the info.  I'm no engineer but am having trouble with the picture you paint of the alloy turning to liquid, etc.  It does not jive with any of the slugs I have picked up at the range.  Guess I gotta see it to believe it :-)

[Mac11700]

one common myth is that gas checks let you shoot cast boolits at higher velocities, not true at all. if the gas check is following a glob of liquid alloy it will spin in the rifling, not the glob of alloy !

I really don't know where you heard this...but is is far from the truth...properly sized,lubricated,cast bullets with gas checks do indeed allow you to shoot cast at higher velocities than those dead soft lead bullets with out them.Out of the countless thousands of different cast bullets I've  shot in my life I could always count on that fact. I've also done a-lot of casting in my day...rifle and pistol..and some of the tricks you mentioned do indeed work and work rather well to gain performance...do they always work for each bullet and each rifle...no they don't..but to make a blanket statement and say they don't work is wrong too...

Taking random bullets and testing their hardness is the normal thing to do...as with any other type of reloading one does...this is to ensure things remain the same...but this only is needed in casting...ONCE you have the load developed you want...to be able to verify the consistancy of that paticular bullet,not when developing a new load and your only casting  a small amount...UNLESS you have set your criteria for a paticular hardness of a paticular design and plan to only accept one hardness...and again...since your casting for your own pleasure and your own rifle and a limited amount..each bullet you do cast may or not be accurate in your rifle.With each different bullet design and each different rifle,,you will most likely have to vary thing around to find one that truely shines in your paticular rifle. If your  casting several hundred or thousands bullets in a batch, at a time...and know the desired hardness..that's when it makes more sense to bother with the hardness tester.

As far as using a hardness tester to check for  the desired hardness when heat treating bullets...or even verifing mass produced hard cast is a good idea...why pay for  a heat treated  cast when it's not...

Mac

[handirifle]

There is a small amount of truth in what scattergunner says, but only under less than optimal conditions.  mind you all of what I am going to say was gleaned from books or posters on the Shiloh Sharps forum.  A LOT of cast experience over ther.

Pressure will cause a cast bullet to melt, but ONLY if the gas gets past the base of the bullet.  One MAJOR reason you need a gas check, or wad at the base.  Once the gas gets by it's called "cutting".  I have seen my bullets that were affected by this and many photos of same.  It can be prevented and bullet sizing is a big factor.  Too small of a bullet, too soft of bullet with low pressure loads, or, in the case with black powder, no wad to protect the bullet could all cause cutting to occur.

Again, I am no expert AT ALL on this but I did read up on it a lot cause my cast accuracy was always so poor and I wanted to find out why.  (never did by the way)

The general concensus is that the copper based bullet, sized properly, will prevent cutting and allow a cast bullet to be pushed to higher velocities without accuracy loss or excessive leading.  That is another symptom of cutting, excessive leading of the barrel.

[JPH45]

text

"I do hope all this is taken in the context meant, a friendly disscussion amoung friends"

Don't know if this will work longgcruise, I'm trying to copy your reference to trying to think like JD Jones, businessman. I believe you are to some degree correct. But it also points up the failing of cast bullets to perform with the same level of consistancy barrel to barrel as can be found with jacketed. It also points up a great shortcoming of cast in that one alloy may or may not give the desired performace. I'm not saying that with jacketed, one barrel is going to shoot just as well with a bullet as the next barrel, but there is a higher degree of conformity that exists in this senario than exists with cast. I'm sure there are some exceptions, probably both ways. I can say that the 429421 bullets DJ sent for me to try out will not shoot worth a toot in my barrel, even using the same loads he uses in his 44. His is not an NEF, I can't recall the maker.

Perhaps best said from my point of view today at least is what is wrong with using cast for plinking and jacketed for specific use like hunting? So that all know, I will be taking my 45-70 out this year using Lees  405 HP pushed by 50 grains of WC846 for a velocity of app 1575 fps. Ought ot be a real deer getter. I am also going to use a jackete bullet of 150-165 grains from my 30-30 over a field that gives me a chance at 200 yard shots. I can drive Sierras 150 grain Game King at 2350 with 33.7 grains of the same WC846. I don't think the Game King is the precise bullet I am looking for, but there are several which should perform quite well from the 30-30 and give a maximum PBR of 200 yards for a 4" circle. I fully expect the minimum range to be 100 yards over this field, and I want the best I can possibly get for that chance.

But all that is somewhat beside the point. The point more precisely, is what is wrong with using a highly engineered bullet designed to give a high ballistic coeffecient, a known and repeatable expansion and penetration performance coupled with the highest degree of accuracy available from the rifle, and what is wrong with using such a bullet to at least double the maximum effective range of my rifle just because I didn't make the bullet??? Would such performance be somehow more oooo-aaah if I whipped it out of a set of Corbin dies and Corbin press from lead wire and jackets that I bought?

I have heard much about how in the century past (refering to the 1800's) that everything on this continent was taken with  cast bullets. What is not so frequently recognized is that there is a world of difference between the likes of 45-70's, 45-90's, 50-70's and such with a cast bullet and a 30-30 or even 30-06 with a cast bullet. How many of the "cast for everything" crowd are ready to take their 30-30 with 2000 fps 150 grain bullet bruin hunting??? Feel like capping one of those with such a load?? How about a moose or a elk? Even a modest .54 or .58 musket is more than a match for such a load. And even modern sabots with 250 grain lead pistol bullets will do as much or more than the 150 30-30. So let us quit being dishonest with ourselves by saying it was done in the 1880's, cause the fact of the matter is, it wasn't. a 45-90 and 500 groan bullets does things a cast driving 30-30 only wishes it would do. But note, it was the 303 Savage and the 30-30 that did in such rifles as the 45-70 and 45-90 and their kin. Why??? Because with a jacketed bullet, velocities were attained which allowed these now considered weak cartridges (in fact the 303 Savage is for all intents and purposes dead) to shoot farther, flatter and hit just as hard as their older cousins. It was not the 30-40 Krag with cast bullets that changed the military rifle world, it was cartridges like the 30-40, 7mm Mauser, 303 British, 7.62x54R and the copper and cupronickel jacketed bullets they shot that revolutionized the world of rifles. and it is not cast bullets that are changing the world today, it is rifles like the Lazzaronis and their chamberings driving jacketed bullets to speeds in excess of 3400 fps that are the cutting edge of rifle technology today.

Is there a place for cast bullets? Absolutely. And I don't think it is just is a plinking bullet. There are those who possess the skills and desire to develop their cast bullets and shooting of them to be competitive with some available jacketed bullets. Thats ok. And there are those who will simply choose to use cast for plinking, and jacketed for their "higher pursuits". That's ok too. But I do think that to generate a "cast only" or "jacketed only" mentality stes to great a limitation for the honest exploration of ones rifle(s). I have spent a year and half now experimenting with cast bullets in my NEF's, and will continue to do so. I am also going to allow myself the freedom to have an open mind and explore their performance with jacketed as well.

More than anyone, Dave Scovill through a conversation we had last winter as a result of an editorial he wrote, convinced me to explore further with cast than just target shooting. I did and I am glad I did. But I am shedding the notion of "if it ain't cast, it ain't a real bullet" thinking. It may be true for some, it ain't true for me.

[ScatterGunner]

mac -

youch !


quote - "I really don't know where you heard this...but is is far from the truth...properly sized,lubricated,cast bullets with gas checks do indeed allow you to shoot cast at higher velocities than those dead soft lead bullets with out them."

i've run non-gas-checked bullets in my 30-06 past 2800 fps (chrono-'ed) with no leading and exceptional results.

gas checked bullets will readily liquify, flow, distort and not return to the original shape, if you run the pressure past the ultimate compressive strength. it's simple metallurgy. the gas check prevents gas cutting only, it is NOT a hedge against pressure deformation. at the chamber pressures we work at, the gas check is a flexible diaphram that will pass the compressive pressure components of the chamber pressure.

i've only been shooting cast bullets for 20 years and by no means do i claim to be an expert, but i tend to be on the analytic side (nerd engineer type) and i usually beat a subject to death so i understand it well enough for casual conversation.

quote - "do they always work for each bullet and each rifle...no they don't..but to make a blanket statement and say they don't work is wrong too... "

other than also being another blanket statement, in general terms, for 99% of properly selected bullet shapes and rifling types, what i said will let you tune pressures and hardness to a minimal group, better  than any "try it and see what happens approach" with much more predictable results.


quote - "As far as using a hardness tester to check for the desired hardness when heat treating bullets...or even verifing mass produced hard cast is a good idea...why pay for a heat treated cast when it's not... "

please clarify this statement, my earlier comment was that you MUST measure bullet hardness to work up a load based on the highest useable pressure, are you agreeing with me or telling me i am wrong again ?


btw - i tried heat treating wheel weights for my 357, found they worked well but i found a lot of what looked like dust on the target. do you think these heat treated bullets simply shatter ? mine measured out at 27 BHN.


your casting experience is well founded and i hope you don't think i am being critical at all here, i like to hear other opinions, and to have my opinions challenged.

thanks,


sg

[ScatterGunner]

whoops -


i forgot one thing -

there is not enough heat and time in the chamber to melt a bullet by what we consider to be convention means, heat alone.


there was a article in the lyman cast bullet handbook that said if you take an oxy-acetylene torch and place it against the base of a bullet for a second (as i think i remember he said) the bullet will not melt because not enough heat energy was transfered from the flame to the bullet, and , the one second torch exposure represents much more heat than what you get from the burning powder.

siting the newer LEE handbook, richard lee beats aroung this bush too.

the conclusion - the major parameter that melts bullets in guns is pressure only.

talk later,

sg

[Mac11700]

Scattergunner...

Didn't mean to sound so harsh...if I did I apologize..

First off I don't entirely agree about the hardness tester...while it is a good piece of equipment to own..I don't think it is a vital pice to own for the recreational caster...there are to many good formulas for achieving consistantcy of your mix and for doing small batches...it really isn't needed...now doing large batches...entirely different story...or  verifying the hardness of commercial casted bullets...yes..it would help..

Second...I've casted bullets since the 70's for various different guns...never 1 time  using a  store bought tester...and have had some great results and some dismal failures as well...would the tester made a difference...I really don't think so...since I starting applying gas checks and heat treating my pistol and rifle bullets and slugging the bore and using a high quality lube for them...my velocities have increased...the leading is no longer a problem..and my accuracy is ok...

Third...In making blanket statements saying..." this is the only way you'll ever....ect.ect.ect..." isn't really a good response...as the old saying goes...there's more than 1 way to skin a cat...I've been guilty of saying that before...it's easy to do

Fourth...I have had some very good luck running hard cast gas-checked bullet up in velocities... some as high as jacketed ..some not as high as jacketed...but up nevertheless...and stop having had the cutting problems since using gas checks...and I have built all kinds of bullet traps to capture bullets to inspect.

Fifth..if your mix is right...and your technic is right...your consistancy will be right......You have to follow the basics to achieve good results...Slugging the bore...if your going to only shoot cast...this is needed and lapping it to get a consistant degree of swedging all the way down the bore......sizing and lubricating...they have to be the right size and your lube has to be able to work...if it doesn't ..your loads won't work right...and if you are going to be shooting higher pressure and higher velocity loads...a gas check is still the way to go...while it may not stop every fractional amount of flame cutting..it will stop the total melt down of the bullets base..


All of what I said is for the occasional caster who likes to dabble or experiment...not a hardcore caster who doesn't shoot anything but his own... and if I offended you with my statement...again I do  apologize...


Mac

[ScatterGunner]

hi mac -

thanks, and no offense taken at all here, i know sometimes my writing style doesn't convey congeniality so i too apologize if i stirred things up.

i like hearing other peoples thoughts on casting, and hey, if we all agreed on EVERYTHING, this would be a boring website.


sg