X Bullet for Encore Hangun......enough velocity?

[Captainkev]

I am looking into a bullet to handload for my 376 Steyr Encore.
It will be for 200 - 300 yard shots on Elk Size Game.
I would like to go with 225-270 grain weight.
I am pretty sure I want to go with the new Barnes Triple Shock X Bullet.
But.......I have heard a few people comment that the velocity of the 15 inch barrel may not be high enough at the longer ranges for the X Bullet to open effectively.
In testing with handloaded 270 gr. Hornady SP, 2400 fps was seen, so I would guess at 300 yards that bullet would be down around 1700 fps or so.
Any thoughts on this, or experience with the X Bullet from the Handgun barrel lengths ?

Kevin

[skeeter]

Call Barnes.  I bet they have do all kinds of testing before marketing the triple shock bullets.

[Captainkev]

I am going to contact Barnes.  I was just wondering who here may have used an X bullet with their Handgun, and what kind of bullet performance was there on longer range shots.

Kevin

[onesonek]

In my experience, 1900 fps is about the bottom end for terminal performance.

[jhalcott]

Captain, If you assume a 270 grain slug /b.c. of .351, started at 2100 fps
.zero it at 150 yards
 Drop will be -8.00 inch at 225 yards. -12.3" at 250 vel=1584.E=1505.
  300 yards drop=-23.4"vel=1493 ,E=1337.
 I might limit my shots to ~250 MAX.Have you tried these bullets on targets at 250/300 yards to see what kind of expansion/penetration you can expect. Elk are BIG targets till you chase one up a mountain.Then your gasping for air & trying to hold the gun on that itty bitty heart/lung area. :wink: I wish you the best of luck,  jh

[leverfan]

I would come up with some loads using a few different bullets, then I would shoot a few of each into wet newsprint at the longest expected hunting range.  You could cheat a little and use a reduced load at short range, but your velocity might not match real extended range velocity as close as you'd hoped (I don't believe that the difference in RPMs between full power long range vs. reduced short range loads makes enough difference to matter).  Besides, if you intend to hunt at that range, taking some field position shots at those 12.5" x 11" bundles of wet newsprint is a good way to spend some time.

If a bullet showed promise (adequate expansion, straight-line penetration), I would also make sure that it doesn't come unglued at close range, which is where game almost always seems to show up, especially if you're loaded with an easy-opening bullet for long range hunting.  I'm sure that the Barnes bullet will be more than tough enough at close range, but I'd sure like to hear your own results if you do this test at long range.  Wet newsprint is a long way off from the real test of your final load combination, but it beats guesses, charts, and computer programs.  

I would lean towards a Nosler 260 grain Partition, or, given the modest velocity of the load, a more conventional cup-and-core bullet.  Nosler's 260 grain AccuBond might be suitable.  Since Barnes bullets retain weight so well, I might also be tempted to use a lighter X-bullet pushed to higher velocity.

[Biathlonman]

Well hopefully I can help as I have been working with a .375 JDJ with a 20" carbine barrel.  I'm running the Hornady 270gr. at 2350 and the 260gr. Nosler at 2400fps.

First off barnes makes no Triple shock in .375.  I wrote them and asked about one and they said they had no intention of making one becuase in their tests they found no difference in velocity or copper fouling.  If you had to go with an X I would think the 235gr. XLC would be what I would go with.

Of the conventional bullets the Hornady is a good one.  With 2400fps starting it should still open faily well out to 300.  I contacted Hornady and they assured me at a MV of 2300 they would still fully expand at 200 yards, I've tested them at 100 and they did very well.

For my money though the best bullet is the 260gr. Nosler Accubond.  Nosler reps told me that it would expand fully down to 1700 fps.  When tested in a combo wet and dry media at 100 yards I was very impressed with its performance.  This bullet also has a much higher B.C then other .375 bullets so it should carry its velocity better than most other bullets.  Get them as seconds from the proshop and they will cost about the same as the Hornady.

And my final thought on the subject is even if you do shoot an elk at 300 yards and it doesn't expand you still just put a .375 caliber hole through the elk.  Many an elk are killed with .30 caliber and smaller rifles that would be lucky to make a .375 caliber hole with perfect bullet performance.

Find a bullet that is accurate and go hunting.  With a .375 I think bullet selection is far less critical then we often make it out to be.

[Lone Star]

And my final thought on the subject is even if you do shoot an elk at 300 yards and it doesn't expand you still just put a .375 caliber hole through the elk.  Many an elk are killed with .30 caliber and smaller rifles that would be lucky to make a .375 caliber hole with perfect bullet performance.

Please don't take too much offense - but that was spoken like a true armchair expert.  There is a world of difference between a .375" hole punched through an animal with a pointed .375" bullet and a .375" hole made by an expanded .277" bullet. The expanding bullet presents a broad, flat front to enhance tissue disruption, and the pieces of jacket which inevitably fly off become secondary missles to do even more damage away from the exact bullet track.  Too, that .277" bullet has a lot more velocity than the .375" handgun bullet when it impacts, and any bone it hits will become higher velocity secondary missles to do further tissue damage.  The pointed .375" bullet pokes through like a pencil with limited-to-no lateral tissue damage.  The theory that an unexpanded large bullet is as good as an expanded smaller one comes from reading rather than from actually shooting game.

The fact is that 300 yards is too far for most rifle hunters to be shooting at elk, let alone the average handgun humter.  As usual, it is the hunter who is the limiting factor, not the cartridge.  Joint an IHMSA or NRA silhouette club and see how well you can hit those 220 yard rams, then decide how far you really should shoot in the field.

[Captainkev]

1.  I spoke with Barnes a month or so ago, and they said they are coming out with a 375 Triple Shock sometime in late May.

2.  I would prefer not to have to take a 300 yard shot with my Handgun, if I can get closer on the animal.  That is part of the fun of the hunt.
However, where I hunt out west, that is not always possible, so I practice at 200 and 300 yards so I know what I am capable of if I do it right.
That being said, a 300 yard shot on an animal would require me to have a very good rest and not be huffing and puffing too hard from climing a ridge line.
That is also why I am trying to find a bullet that will perform effectivley at the longer ranges so as to make a human and quick kill.

Kevin

[leverfan]

1.  I spoke with Barnes a month or so ago, and they said they are coming out with a 375 Triple Shock sometime in late May.
Kevin

You are correct, Kevin.  I just received an e-newsletter from Barnes, and TWO TSX bullets will be available by the end of this month.  They will be in 270 and 300 grain choices, available from Midway and Graf & Sons.  Regardless of what earlier tests may have shown the folks at Barnes, market forces and customer demand can make anything appear on the market.  Let us know how they shoot for you, should you choose to hunt with them.

[Captainkev]

I just ordered some Nosler Accubonds in 260 gr. and will be ordering a box of the TSX 270 gr when they come out in 375 later this month.

I did some follow up on the velocity issue, and the 270 gr. Hornady SP that was tested by Handgun Hunter.com, still was pushing around 1800 fps out of the 376 Steyr Encore Handgun at 300 yards.  If in fact that is correct, then either of the bullets I am going to try, SHOULD open effectively out to that range.  I will be trying some different things at various ranges to test the effectivness of each bullet type, and will post my results here when I am done.

[xphunter]

Did a little figuring with Exbal:
With a 300 grain Sierra Game King with a MV of 2400 fps, elev 8500, temp 59, Humidity 30, sighted in at 225 yards you are 3.4 inches high @ 100 yards. +3.4 @ 150, +1.6 @ 200, -2.1 @ 250 yards, -4.6 275, -7.7 @300 yards, and -15.5 @ 350 yards.   At 300 yards your velocity is 2030.  The 300 SGK has a BC of .475.
The Sierra Game Kings have a really good velocity spread/range.  I used their 180 Sierra Game King on elk this year with really good results.  I have also used the Partitions in my specialty guns for  elk with good success.  Exit wounds were larger than the knuckle of my thumb.  I get under 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards and have not had any fouling issues.  The Accubonds are no doubt great bullets as are the X bullets.  If considering the X, I would also encourage going to their lighter weight bullets as they will have a greater bearing surface as a lead core bullet of the same weight.  
Ernie

[Elwood]

Hey captainkev;
the unfortunate thing about these forums is that you can't tell a pimply faced teenager from a veteran. In our posts we are all experts and eminently qualified to give you advice.                                                   NO one can tell you how far away you should shoot!
A hunter should not take a shot further than the ability of his firearm and his own proficiency. We all tend to judge other by our own inability or ability. Elk are not bulletproof, put a good bullet in the right spot and your freezer will be full. My nephew shoots them with a 243, try to tell his elk they are not dead.   I have before me the September of 1995 Shooting Times. There is is a article on using X-bullets in rifle cartridge firing handguns by Dick Metcalf. He Quotes from Barnes that all X-bullets are carefully tested to ensure that they will expand at 1600 fps or above. These bullets are engineered to expand at extreme range from rifles. The velocity at extreme range for rifles many times is comparable with or below the velocity of handguns at their extreme range.
X-bullets make good sense in hunting really big game such as elk with a handgun when within the velocity parameters.
Take Care
Elwood

[Captainkev]

Thanks for all the info guys.
I will start with the Accubonds when they arrive. The Hornadys best group is 1/2 MOA, so that will be a good base line to work off of.  After I find a good grouping load, I will try it out into various medium at the 200 and 300 yards ranges to see how the bullet performs.
Hopefully I will have some results in the next 3 or 4 weeks.

Kevin

[xphunter]

Kevin,
If you enjoy shooting into different types of medium, by all means do it, but the premium bullets you are considering for this cartridge will easily down an elk if you put it in the right spot for the ranges you are considering.  I have taken 5 elk (2-bulls & 3 cows) with 15.75 inch 284 Win XP-100 using 140 grain Nosler Partitions.  The furthest shot had an impact velocity of 1850 fps on a bull.  Found the bullet on the other side of the bull up against the hide.  Like elwood said, if you put it in the right spot with a good bullet, it will die.  I have also seen elk fatally hit with lung shot that fully penetrated, and the elk acted as if it was not hit.  With that in mind, if the animal is not down or doesn't seem hurt, shoot again.  If you are an experienced elk hunter disregard the advice.  Don't intend to insult your intelligence or experiences.

Little clarity from my last post:
"The Sierra Game Kings have a really good velocity spread/range. I used their 180 Sierra Game King on elk this year with really good results. Exit wounds were larger than the knuckle of my thumb. I get under 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards and have not had any fouling issues."
My current elk specialty handgun is a 15.75 inch sporter weight Remington XP-100 in 7.82 Patriot.  The MV of the 180 grain SGK is 2785 fps.

P.S. The way I wrote it in the first post made it sound like it was the performance of the partitions--which it was not.  The Partitions I was describing were 140 grainers from my 284 Win XP.


Ernie

[Biathlonman]

No offense taken here about my expanded versus unexpanded bullet theory.
(Working in a mental hospital I get called things that would make a sailor blush)

A hole through the heart equals a dead animal anyway you slice it.

I know, I know...that's a little vague, but I was just trying to help a fellow out that sounds like he is about to run the mental marathon I just finished on low velocity .375 bullets.  Any decent .375 bullet stuck in the right place will leave you with a ton of work ahead of you.  

I'm a little shocked about the announcement of the .375 triple shock, might have to give it a try in the 270gr weight (would love to see the 250 grooved), but the more bullets they want to make the better off we will be.

[Captainkev]

Ernie,

All good stuff.
The last Bull I killed was with a 270 Rifle with a 150 gr. nosler partition bullet.
Bottom line IS, put the right bullet in the right place, and you will down your game.
But, as you know, many a well hit Elk doesn't even know it was hit for a while.  
As many bullets will do the job, if I have the option of coming up with a hot load with a very well constructed bullet.  I figure I owe it to game as a sportsman, to put the best bullet in right place.
Good luck this season, and knock em' dead.

Kevin

[Biathlonman]

Can't wait to see your expansion and penetration tests!

[xphunter]

Kevin,
One other thought with the Encore and the 376 Steyr.  I used to have a 16 inch 338 WM barrel for my Encore.  I built it with elk especially in mind using "X" bullets.  I had a number of problems.  One of the main one was treating a break-open action like a bolt rig.  The Encore flexes quite a bit and the larger the bolt face and higher the pressure has created problems with the Encore in the past.  Strong brass is especially helpful.  As you are working up your loads watch your case stretch.  Hopefully you can avoid some of the hard lessons I learned in the past.  The Encore is a great action, just as long as you don't try to rod it as much as a bolt action when it comes to large case heads & high pressure.  A couple of guys on another forum like the big cartridges in specialty pistols.  fiftydriver and handcannons have a lot of experience in the big boys.  they may even post here, but I'm not sure.  They have even had soem similar expereinces that I have had with the Encore.

Ernie