A busy day......

[JPH45]

First thing this morning, I was at the bench powderin' up some cases and stuffin' bullets in 'em in hopes that I would be able to get something I consider decent form my 44 to send in for the match. Alas, I was not able to wring out anything better than from yesterday, so I addressed an envelope, went to the post office and sent my targets in for the match.

Then it was on to Armuchee, (Rome, GA in more general terms) to visit a local (never thought I would consider a 45 mile drive local :eek: ) gun shop and supplier of such reloading goodies as primers, powder and bullets. Spent a while on making my decisions, but after about an hour I walked out $88.00 the richer in primers and few bullet goodies.

I have been casting for toooooooooooo looooooooooooooooong. Sticker shock :eek: Man that ain't the half of it. While I didn't buy any, Noslers 30 cal. 150 Partition is 26.00 for 50. That is .52 cents a pop.....before tax. I will have to wait a bit to give those a try. $20.00 a hundred for Hornady 150 SST's. But they do shoot pretty good. $16.00 a hundred for Sierra 150 ProHunters, these shoot pretty good too, but not so well as their GameKing brothers. $10.00 for 50 Hornady 300 grain XTP's, .20 cents a pop. Better but still.......I used to buy Speer Grand Slams for $12.00 or so for 50 (165 grain for .30 cal) and that was when they still rolled a flange on the inside of the case to keep the core in place.......they don't even do that now I understand.........

OK to the point........The Hornady .44 cal 300 XTP's shoot.....ok. Not as good from my rifle as the Speer 270 Gold Dot, but the target shows no bullet yaw, which means the bullet is stabilized by the 1 in 38 twist of the NEF. It measures .850 long. Velocity was an average of 1527 fps. Extreme spread was 43 fps. (5 shots) Group is just under palm sized (fired at 50 yards) being 2" tall and 1.5" wide. There is a low "flyer" (third shot of the group) leaving 4 making a group 1" tall and 1.5" wide. Definite deer medicine.  At 1500 fps, this load (20.5 grains of H110) is only about 100 fps or less shy of the black powder loading of the 45-70 with the 330 Gould hollow point bullet. I must readily admit though that my 45-70 with cast Lee 405 hollow point bullet will match and best the group readily and exceeds it for velocity by 100 fps as well. But this is the much milder load on the shoulder and I bet will kill just as cleanly.

As to that Hornady 150 SST and the 30-30............well it ain't all bad. of two groups fired, they measure 1.125" tall and 1.375 wide, the other 1.125"tall and 1" wide. No complaints. Even though shot at 50 yards, the groups are uniform. Tuning up the cases, deburring the primer pockets, eliminating the widest shooting cases, marking and seperating cases for velocity uniformity (another way of sorting by volume, some weigh to get this) I believe I can shrink this, but the rest of the story first.........

The Sierra ProHunter 150 shot a nice group 1.25" tall and 1.5" wide. Not bad, but it's brother the Sierra Game King shot a group for me of 1" wide and tall, with 3 shots in one hole. I don't mean touching, I mean in one hole.

Now all of three of these bullets were shot using 33.6 grains of WC846. the velocities are pracically identical. The Sierra ProHunter and the Hornady shoot exactly the same avgerage velocity....2402 fps. The GameKing lags behind slightly at 2360 fps. They all three shoot the same practical size group. they were all fired from the same cases. As a hunting bullet goes, I will choose the one which offers the best terminal performance, or find another bullet.

I do not know how hard the SST is, but I figure it was designed with the 308 and 30-06 in mind. I am a solid 400 fps and more like 500 fps behind those two for a starting velocity. In practical terms, my 30-30 is driving the SST at a muzzle velocity of what the 308/30-06 are doing at the extreme of their hunting range. At 200 yards, the book says I am only making 2000 fps. I wrote them an email and asked what the operating velocity range is on the SST. If I remember, there were reports of it being nearly fragile this past hunting season. If so, that means it should be about right for what I want. We'll see, I will report on what Hornady says.

The Sierra Game King and ProHunter though are both cup and core bullets. These are simple a jacket with acore swaged in them. there is no provision for holding the bullet intact on impact. I have seen the Game King come apart in wet newsprint tests I have done, I am sure the ProHunter would do the same, but there is a lot of difference between the body of a deer and a stack of wet newsprint. Still, I prefer to use a bullet that has teh core either mechanically held in the jacket, or is hot poured into the jacket like the Speer HotCor design. I will have to run some of those down to test as well.

For those who want to try these loads, but do not have any of the surplus WC846, BL-C2 or AA2495 ought to give about the same performance.

In all, I like the 22" tube of the NEF, it definately allows for some extra velocity, I do not think I have ever seen a 20" tube make 2300 fps with a 150 bullet, much less average 2400 fps. As a note of interest, such a load these loads shoot app 2" high at 100 and 2' low at 200 yards. (the Prohunter is down 2.4" but has a little less BC)  The combination of the 22" NEF tube and the use of high BC bullets allows for some very flat shooting, and takes the 30-30 from a woods rifle to an honest woods and field deer getter. With a maximum point blank range for a 4" circle of 200 yards, anything you can see clearly with your naked eye is a point on shot. Not bad for a cartridge that is 100 years old and considered by most as anemic at best.

[hellacatcher]

And I just got through loading my very first......do I ever fell like a babe in the woods.

[Ditchdigger]

JPH45 ; You mentioned the Part. bullets,and it made me think, I have 2 box's of 30 cal. 180's that I bought at a closeout at 60 or 70% off,also 1 box of 6.5 swede,and 1 box of 30 cal. 165 gr. Grand Slam's. If you can use any of this stuff pm me.  I was going to use the 180's in my 300 Wby. but I like the B.T.s better.  Digger

[JPH45]

hellacatcher, since my wife works what amounts to 2nd shift at Wally World, my social life is my shootin' bench and you guys. Glad to hear you've loaded some up. Be careful though, I've never saved a penny reloading, all I've done is taken the same money and shot more. Your sweetie ain't stupid either, so don't ever try to tell her that you're saving money, instead help her see how far the money you are spending is now going. $20.00 for a box of a hundred Hornady SST's??? I couldn't  shoot two boxes of factory ammo for that price, a mere 40 rounds. Time powder and primers are paid for I will shoot 100 rounds for what 55-60 factory loads would cost. That is real money.

Quite a few of us are reloaders here so please feel free to inquire of our collective ignorance. I am sure that we will do our best to misdirect, I meant blow you up, No, I meant help you out.

What are you loading for?

[De41mag]

JPH45;

After that last post just had reply about your social life.
My wife is a waitress, and I fall into the same catigory as you , shootin', reloading and GBO.
Also that  post Standing at the Crossroads was really something, It almost sounded like Nathan Bedford Forrest when he wrote to his troops upon hearing of the surrender of the CSA to the North.
I'm kinda on the other side of the tracks as far as I can't get any of the lighter bullets (jacketed) to shoot out of my Ultra 44mag. but it shoots Leadheads Cast bullets the best. GC and plain base. But I wanted a bullet that expanded. So here I'm on the other side. Haven't put as much time and effort as yourself but still in a delima. Although the cast bullets are accurate more so than the jacketed its still not a tack driver at 100yds.
Again fantastic piece of writing telling of your outcome.
Keep us posted.
Dennis  

[JPH45]

DE41mag, thank you for the compliment on my writing, trials and tribulations tend to bring out the best in all of us. It has been a trial. There have been days I just wanted to sell the rifle and forget. I guess like Forrest I'm just too damn stubborn.

The first question comes to mind is what kind of velocity are you getting? If you are getting good accuracy (4" at 100 yards) and your muzzle velocity is on the order of 1300 fps or higher, it will in reality work quite well as a der getter. Don't forget (I did) that the 44 Magnum made it's reputation with cast bullets being driven at velocities between 1200 and 1400 fps. Keiths famous hot load for 44 Special drove a 250 grain bullet at 1200 fps from a 4" barrel. Hen and many others have done a lot of killing with that load. Witnessing it myself from my Handi this year on 2 deer made me a believer.

My quest though is for velocity. All I can wring out of it. No matter how you slice it, velocity is the key to range. And though I am unquestionably a woods hunter, there is not a day afield that I do not come to a place where 100 yards could stand between me and the Buck of Dreams. At that moment all the blathering about cast, jacketed, how fast, how accurate, come into one crystal focus.......can I cleanly make this shot.

Years ago a friend and I hunted a large soybean field surrounded by a huge stand of hardwoods and creek bottoms. I was crossing the soybean feild and just as I came over a rise there was a buck, big guy, making a scrape, right at the entrance into the woods my buddy took to  get to his stand. Shot would have been 150 yards. I've never shot at game that far and certaily not with the Browning 1885 45-70 I was lugging that day. Winchester 300 JHP load. I remember as though it were yesterday thinking to myself, I believe I can make that shot, but what if I hold to high, go oer his back and Mel is walking out at that moment and takes that bullet?? I passed. Buck meanwhile wandered to a spot about 25 yards from where he was and started scraping again. Problem is that 25 yards took him further out of range.

An interesting moment. The lesson I learned is that deer can and will show up at the limits and just beyond of what you think you are capable. With a 30-06, I would have nailed that fellow. But there I was with a big slow load known for its rainbow trajectory. I had never done any shooting past 100 yards with it, so all I knew was the book.

Anyway, the 44 Mag is a short range gun, at least for most of us. The best that can be squeezed out of it is a 125 yard max point blank range (using a 4" circle, +2" -2" to line of sight) I have never been a fan of light bullets in the 44, one gives up too much to the poor ballistics of them. Fine for shooting theives through car doors, good for little else. A hunting bullet should weigh at least 250 grains and 270 to 300 is even better. Ran stats on the 300 grain bullet at 1500 fps last night, and it and the 270 Gold Dot are ballistic twins. If my experience with the Hornady 180 XTP from the Max is worth anything, a deer hit with the 44 300 XTP is hit, hit hard and left with a big hole, all the way out to 125 yards.

[hellacatcher]

JPH45 I hear you the little lady is at least sportive. In the last year or so I have had more fun on this and the old H&R site and have learnt more than I thought possible but know there is a lot more to go It was a little over a year sense I bought my first center fire rifle now I have four. This is a bad habit on the pocketbook but lots of fun. Now saturday night I loaded my first cartage. That really cost I would hate to add up how much when I first started talking about it I told the wife I needed a bench she went and picked it out ,I was going to knock something together but she did me right even though my over time is paying  for it. When I was buying the reload kit I happen to see a NEF 357 said something to her about it she said do whatever you want. Now I just got to find out if I want it or not that is if it is still there. Anyway I want to think you and all the rest for the education good times and a lot of fun. It seem like for a long time about all I did was work now I found someting fun relaxing and it keeps my blood pressure down. I love it.

[De41mag]

JPH45;

Just thought about what all you said, and I guess it seems we are never satisfied. When you mentioned about 4" groups, my rifle will average about 2-1/2 to 3" at one hundered, with the GC's. Two weeks ago went to the range to shoot the 629 and took the Ultra along. Ended up at the 100yd. range, with some leftover Keith 250's that I shoot for a mid-range load. What the heck.... try them in the rifle. The're not hot in pistol so might not be to fast in the rifle. After adjusting the scope it began putting them in a 3 inch Shoot-n-See target. I thought this is a fluke...so I put more 3" targets up, sure enough it would keep them in the circle time and time again. Man this was fun. But it goes back, that as people, we still want better. So as you wrote, these are sows-eared rifles and maybe I need to happy with what I have.
Oh,by the way, that Keith 250gr was ahead of 10.0 gr. of Unique, and five shot groups.
Good Luck JP on your future ventures, We all have learned great deal from your trials and tribulations. Thank for sharing them with us.
Dennis.

[JPH45]

Every load I have used with Unique with the exception of one looks like I'm shooting at a rolling plate. I think every rifle is a rule unto itself, and I ain't seen the deer that a 3" shooter won't kill. Fact of the matter is, over the years I have owned more 3" shooters than I have 1" shooters, and when the whole thruth is told I bet that that most of us (including myself) see a lot more groups at 2-3" than we do at even 1.5". I went back today and looked at targets I have kept over the last year. While I can easily find targerts from ten shot groups putting 8 inside 1.5" there are always 2 that linger out at 2-2.5" and even 3 at times. If I got disgustingly honest about it, my 44 is more like a 2.5" gun than a 1.5" gun. I ain't complainin', just beginning to get more honest and real about my rifle, my abilities (probably my single greatest detriment to tiny groups) and my expectations. I do shoot for fun, and I do in fact enjoy shooting very acurate rifles, so I'm gonna save up my pennies and get me one next year. Might even build it, there are still plenty of good 95 and 98 Mausers out there with lots of good life in left in 'em. there are also a good number of Savage 110's floating around......but first I'm headed to throwing some surplus military ball down the barel of that 30-30 for some plinking fun, and maybe smooth out that barrel a bit while I'm at it, get it dressed up for cast you might say........

[De41mag]

JP;

Going back to when you were asking what kind of velocities I was getting, I really don't know, I don't have a chronograph. I always start around suggested start loads then work up. I rarely ever reach max load because most of the time I find accuracy somewhere in between. But I do have a couple of loads max in some calibers. And I have many reloading manuals at the bench.

What style of bullet (cast) did you use on the deer this past season?
This RNFP-GC that shoots well out of my 44 Ultra, well I just can't seem to believe that it would do good on a whitetail unless I shot it directly into the shoulder blade. Maybe I'm just used to an expanding bullet.

[Mitch in MI]

This RNFP-GC that shoots well out of my 44 Ultra, well I just can't seem to believe that it would do good on a whitetail unless I shot it directly into the shoulder blade. Maybe I'm just used to an expanding bullet.

Well, would you consider a .243 adequate for whitetail if it expanded to .429? The .44mag is already there before any expansion.