Author Topic: 45 auto vs 44 special  (Read 840 times)

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Offline jedd

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45 auto vs 44 special
« on: May 25, 2004, 02:54:53 PM »
I just got a job that requires me to wear a sidearm.  I wanted to buy a gun that I could use at work and out in the bush.  The largest caliber they allow you to carry is a .45 auto.  I asked them if I could buy a 44 mag and use 44 special ammo while I was carrying it at work.  They told me that that would be too big and that I couldn't use it. I really don't know anything thing about handguns, but I did some searching and just about all the ballistic charts I saw show that the 45 auto has more power than the 44 special.  Like I said I dont know much about handguns, so if anyone can help out that would be great.

Thanks

Offline Questor

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2004, 03:13:28 PM »
I think your employer's concerns are well founded. It's the combination of the gun and the cartridge that make it an effective fighting tool.  A typical 44 magnum pistol weighs about a pound more than a typical 45 auto, and is a lot bulkier, and is harder to learn how to shoot.  They are designed for hunting.  Most 45 autos are designed from the ground up to be fighting tools.


There are some handguns that are chambered for 44 special that are very suitable for carry guns, but they are designed for the 44 special cartridge, and are lighter and smaller.
Safety first

Offline jedd

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2004, 03:16:32 PM »
They told me I couldn't even use a gun chambered only for 44 special.

Offline Prof. Fuller Bullspit

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Re: 45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2004, 03:53:12 PM »
Quote from: jedd
Like I said I dont know much about handguns, so if anyone can help out that would be great.
Thanks


I noticed you said you don't know a lot about guns. With that in mind I would strongly recommend several things.

1. Learn more about guns! Specifically the gun you purchase for this job.

2. Consider a revolver. Revolvers are simpler to learn to use safely. There are many who disagree with this, but I believe it.

3. Buy good quality.

4. Shoot at least 50 rounds of the EXACT ammo you will carry before you ever carry that gun for self defense.

5. Shoot at least 200 rounds of cheaper practice ammo before you carry that gun for self defense.

6. If you do get a revolver you really can't go wrong with the .357 magnum. This gun will accept .38 special, which is cheaper and easy to shoot in practice. The .357 is powerful enough for bush carry and with the right ammunition is in the top 3 calibers for self defense work.

7. Get training in self defensive application of firearms. This should include use of cover and concealment, low light shooting, tactical reloading, and the legal ramifications of the use of a firearm in self defense. You need to know the aftermath and prepare for it before it happens.

Offline Questor

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2004, 02:32:37 AM »
I agree with the training. But today's autos are of safe design and the ergonomics are better and they are chambered for better defensive cartridges.  They are typically easier to learn to shoot.
Safety first

Offline securitysix

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2004, 05:06:31 AM »
Quote
They told me that that would be too big and that I couldn't use it.


The gun or the ammo it shoots?  If the former, they're pretty stupid to restrict that, since you're the one that's going to have to carry it.  If they are attempting to restrict the latter, they're full of crap.

.44 Special loads run from about 750 FPS to 950 FPS with a 240 gr. bullet depending on the amount and type of powder used.  Your average factory fodder is going to be closer to the middle of that.

.45 ACP loads run from 750 FPS to 950 FPS with a 230 gr. bullet depending on the amount and type of powder used.  Your average factory loads are going to be closer to 800-850 FPS unless they are +P.

Ask them if they allow .45 ACP +P loads to be used as a duty round.  If so, it would make exactly no sense to prohibit .44 Special.  I could understand them not allowing a gun chambered for .44 Magnum because it CAN use .44 mag and that is a bit too much for your average BG in town.  Not allowing .44 Special is, in my ever so humble opinion, a monumentally stupid rule.

Offline Dusty Miller

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2004, 07:49:21 AM »
Whut Prof. Bullspit sed.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Prof. Fuller Bullspit

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2004, 09:02:26 AM »
Quote from: Questor
I agree with the training. But today's autos are of safe design and the ergonomics are better and they are chambered for better defensive cartridges.  They are typically easier to learn to shoot.


You are probably correct in that the ergonomics of autos might be better than revolvers. This can be a personal preference sort of thing but in general I would agree that the grip of most autos fits many people better than the grip of a revolver.  Also, because the axis of the bore is typically closer to the hand in an auto you may experience less muzzle rise in an auto compared to a revolver which can aid in rapidity of accurate fire.

I would never argue that autos are not safe. But I don't think that they are safer than revolvers. Specifically a revolver is easier to load and  unload safely than an auto. Another way of saying this is, I believe that autos require more training to help the shooter operate them  safely than revolvers.

As an example, there is one operation needed to unload a revolver, unlatch the cylinder and dump. The same operation confirms empty chambers. An auto requires removal of the magazine and removal of the round in the chamber. Many people forget to do the second! Removing the magazine seems to give novice users a false sense of security. They can see the bullets, the gun must be safe, right? No!

Autos being easier to learn to shoot? Maybe. Specifically the Glock and the other autos that use a striker firing system have a consistent trigger pull that is typically lighter than a revolver's double action trigger pull. These guns are "revolvers without the cylinders"! No safety levers, no decockers etc. to worry about. I would not agree that an auto is easier to learn to shoot properly and safely if we are talking about double action on the first shot, single action for shots after that. You have to pull hard to get the hammer to cock and then every shot after that needs only a light trigger pull. That takes time to get used to. These guns typically also require the mastery of a decocking lever or you have to learn to safely manipulate the trigger down on a loaded chamber. Not as simple as a revolver.

Also autos are prone to problems associated with limp wristing, slide interference (like when shooting with the gun supported by a barrier or cover when shooting behind cover or concealment) etc. Don't get me wrong, these are EXCELLENT guns, but more for those who are knowledgeable and willing to undergo the training needed to operate them properly. What is the analogous operation in a revolver to "Tap Rack Bang?" I don't think there is one because the action needed to bring a new round into battery on a revolver is just to pull the trigger again.

Autos are available in better defensive calibers? What is a better defensive caliber for most situations than the .357 magnum loaded with a 125 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint? The .45 and the .40 S&W are both excellent with the right bullets. I wouldn't say that they are better than the .357. I wouldn't say that the .357 is better than the .40 or .45. I would classify them as being equal, with the right bullets and I would feel comfortable using any of them as a primary defensive handgun round.

Along with ergonomics the biggest advantage of autos over revolvers include ammunition capacity and ease of reloading.  Full size autos come with 7-10 round magazines and there is no doubt that it is easier to hit the big hole with a big fresh magazine than to fumble six little cartridges individually into six chambers on a revolver!

Offline dawei

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Re: 45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2004, 01:19:21 PM »
Quote from: jedd
I just got a job that requires me to wear a sidearm.  I wanted to buy a gun that I could use at work and out in the bush.  The largest caliber they allow you to carry is a .45 auto.  I asked them if I could buy a 44 mag and use 44 special ammo while I was carrying it at work.  They told me that that would be too big and that I couldn't use it. I really don't know anything thing about handguns, but I did some searching and just about all the ballistic charts I saw show that the 45 auto has more power than the 44 special.  Like I said I dont know much about handguns, so if anyone can help out that would be great.

Thanks


For what it's worth my department follows simular logic (if you'd call it that). Revolvers in 38Spec, 357Mag, or 45ACP only; No 41's or 44's alowed. If Semi auto 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W, or 45ACP, no 22, 25, 30, 32, or 380's.

Some myths die hard.

Offline jedd

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2004, 06:48:21 PM »
I got this today at work.  Any suggestions on what I should buy would be much appreciated.  I would prefer to have a light gun for packing in the bush.

Permitted Weapons: Revolvers:
.38 caliber double action revolvers
-    .357 Mag. caliber double action revolvers only with .38 caliber ammunition Semi-Automatics:
-    Double action semi-automatic handguns utilizing 9 mm, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 ACP cartridges
Single action or trigger safe handguns are not allowed. Semi-automatics must either have a decocking device or be double action only. Double action means a single pull of the trigger causes two actions of the hammer. The hammer first comes back and then fells in one continuous motion. Semi-automatics may be single action after the first round is fired.

Offline les hemby

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2004, 02:51:26 AM »
my vote would be for 357. i would carry 38 spes. Winchester personal protection +P 130gr sxt hollowpoints with 2 speedloaders with 357 125gr xtp hornadys and practice practice practice. My 686 ( that would be my suggestion for the revolver to) will put pretty much all winchester pp ammo into 1 ragged hole at 25yds. Unless you spend some big bucks i dont think you will get this kind of accuracy out of a auto. i know you can only carry 38 in gun but the two speedloaders with 357 should be there, after 6 38's if its still coming its time for more power. We can worry about co. policy after saving butt. After more training you may want to go with auto but i would go revolver for now. The 686 makes a very good small game gun and this causes alot of practice :wink: just my .2

Offline dawei

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2004, 02:58:35 AM »
Quote from: jedd
I got this today at work.  Any suggestions on what I should buy would be much appreciated.  I would prefer to have a light gun for packing in the bush.

Permitted Weapons: Revolvers:
.38 caliber double action revolvers
-    .357 Mag. caliber double action revolvers only with .38 caliber ammunition Semi-Automatics:
-    Double action semi-automatic handguns utilizing 9 mm, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 ACP cartridges
Single action or trigger safe handguns are not allowed. Semi-automatics must either have a decocking device or be double action only. Double action means a single pull of the trigger causes two actions of the hammer. The hammer first comes back and then fells in one continuous motion. Semi-automatics may be single action after the first round is fired.


If limited to 38Spec ammo go with the Winchester 110gr JHP +P+ Treasury Load. It's tremendous!

Offline Prof. Fuller Bullspit

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2004, 05:53:38 AM »
I agree with Les Hemby. I would go for a .357 revolver loaded with high quality .38 special ammunition.

Dawei has given you an  outstanding recommendation for the .38 special load. Make sure you are allowed to  use +p+ loads. Please follow all of your department/organizations rules on guns and ammo!

Gun selection:

I would recommend a 4" barrel. As to which specific gun. Get yourself to a big gun store, or several and feel the grips and heft of as many different models as you can.

For new guns you have, in my opinion, a choice between a Smith and Wesson (models 19 and 66 as the 686 is heavier) and a Ruger  (SP 101 lighter than the GP-100) and Taurus. That happens to be my order of preference.

For a duty only gun I would recommend fixed sites, but since you want to also use this gun in the field you will probably want adjustable sites.

Ammunition choices:

.38 special ammunition comes in at least three 'flavors'.

.38 special: Standard pressure round suitable for all guns.
.38+p: Higher pressure round suitable for .38 special guns rated for +p and all .357 guns.
.38+p+ Still higher pressure round suitable for .38 special guns rated for +p+ and all .357 guns.

If your department allows +p+ (This ammunition used to be available to police only, I don't know if this is still the case) then you should consider using it.

If your department doesn't allow +p+ but allows +p, you should use that.

Bullet choice:

In the summer I would recommend the 110 +P+ if you are allowed to use it. In the winter for locations with cold weather and thick coats I would probably go to a +p 158 grain lead hollowpoint. If nyclad ammunition is still available I would look for it. If you don't live where it gets cold the 110 +p+ would be good all year long.

If you can only use +p then I might look at the +p 125-140 grain semi jacketed or hollowpoint bullets or the 158 grain lead hollowpoint.

If you can't use +p I would go for the standard pressure 158 grain lead hollowpoint or one of the 110 grain hollowpoints.


Practice and be safe! Remember, the chance of you ever having to even draw your gun are fairly low. But if you do need it you will need to shoot it accurately and to protect yourself by using cover and concealment if available. Practice shooting accurately, but also practice shooting laying on the ground, kneeling behind things and practice shooting one hand only with both hands.

The FRONT SITE is your friend!

Offline Prof. Fuller Bullspit

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2004, 09:17:41 AM »
I just went to a local gun store and handled a nice Smith and Wesson model 386. This gun has an alloy frame and a SEVEN shot capacity. If money is no object I and you really are looking for light weight in a revolver you should check this gun out.

Offline 1911crazy

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2004, 12:05:37 AM »
I would go with the 357magnum thats my summer day gun.  BigBill

The rest of the time its my redhawk 7 1/2" bbl in 44mag for at night and winter time carry.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2004, 12:53:05 AM »
Morning all  :D
This, at first blush may seem trite, If ya doan know buy a SIG. P220, P239 in a .45. Buy a bunch of bullets, bout 500 will do to start. Shoot em all and discard those that do not function, doubt there will be too many, maybe wadcutters, maybe.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline les hemby

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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2004, 02:04:26 AM »
The Prof.      is absolutely right it would be better to go with +P+ than risk 357 because of dept issues

Offline 44 Man

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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2004, 02:13:14 PM »
I agree with the .357 route.  It is a versital gun that can be used for many different applications.  My favorite load is the +p 158 lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint.  If you have fixed sights, it will usually shoot to the sights where the 110/125 bullets will not.  It does sound like you have the usual problem.  The people/person making the rules is not gun-knowledgeable.  He just happens to be in the wrong administration seat at the moment.  No sense arguing with him, just go with the best available and possibly you may sit in that seat someday and can offer your people wiser choices.  44 Man
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Offline Old Griz

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45 auto vs 44 special
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2004, 04:59:03 PM »
:cb2: Somebody said that the .357, .40, and .45 were equal, but I'd sure rather have a .357 any day. It's a bit more equal than the other two. BUT you can't have one. So, I'd go with a S&W 686 Plus with the 7 round capacity loaded with .38+P or +P+ and Hogue monogrips, or a .45 with decock, probably the Ruger auto. The Ruger .45s would be cheaper by far and better stopping power than any .38.
Griz
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