Author Topic: 45-70 Range Time (Read 1996 times)

Wlscott · « **on:** May 07, 2004, 06:34:25 PM »

Well, I got the new 45-70 out to the range today. Shot the "light" load over the chrony. Couldn't get it to group very good, but I did get a good feel for how fast it is shooting.

My light load is 53 grains of H4198, 300 grain Remington HP, Starline brass and CCI LR primers.

I also got a good feel for how this thing kicks. I've been reading posts about the recoil from a 45-70, and man...you really don't know until you get behind one. This thing really backs up :eek:

I ended up getting 2230 fps avg out of this load. I also chrono'd a couple of 54 grain H4198 loads. They were going about 2380 fps. My shoulder couldn't take much more so I didn't shoot enough to really get any good data from them though.

MAN, I LOVE THIS GUN :lol: :lol:

handirifle · « **Reply #1 on:** May 07, 2004, 07:34:48 PM »

The factory loads at about 1800fps packs a pretty good punch itself. Not sure I'd wanna go to 2300 with them myself.

Wlscott · « **Reply #2 on:** May 08, 2004, 04:18:55 AM »

Quote

Not sure I'd wanna go to 2300 with them myself.

Because of the recoil, or because you don't want to tear up the gun?

I'm kind of surprised.....These are suposed to be trapdoor loads off of Hodgdons website. I didn't expect them to kick quite so much.

They're not too bad from a standing or sitting field position. But from the bench they're brutal :lol:

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 08, 2004, 09:15:12 AM »

Mercury recoil damponer and a PAST Magnum shoulder pad (and don't let your buddies get to ya you by callin ya a sissy either! :lol: )...best money I ever spent on my 45-70!!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 08, 2004, 04:42:15 PM »

Wilscott:

Here's a tip for shooting heavy loads from your 45-70 off the bench...

Get to where you can stand up and still shoot(it's a pain to rig up stuff...but it really does help)...or at least sit very upright when you do...this well help a great deal...plus don't try to let the rifle have free recoil for accuracy,like you would a bench rifle,you don't need a death grip but hold it firm to ya......plus add some weight to the stock to dampen it even more...you can always take it out prior to hunting... oh...one other thing...I added a Pachmayer Decelorator pad to my 1895GS and that really cut down on the thump.

Mac

Wlscott · « **Reply #5 on:** May 09, 2004, 05:42:08 AM »

I am going to make a recoil suppressor for this gun. I'm going to take a peice of pipe that will fit in the stock bolt hole, melt wheel weights and pour into the pipe, and fit it into the hole.

In addition to a Past Recoil shield that should tame it down pretty good.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Oh, by the way.....It's been nearly two days and my shoulder is STILL tender :lol:

MAN, you gotta love this gun!!

Big Blue · « **Reply #6 on:** May 09, 2004, 03:40:29 PM »

Wlscott,
The 8"x3/4" copper pipe fits to a tee. It does help, but recoil from the bench is still a bugger. I'm amazed at the kick of published trap door loads, especially with the heavier bullets. I'm thinking of switching stocks with one that came with the recoil pad, just for bench work. That has to make a big difference. I feel a bit crazy, sitting here with a .223 that has a nice cushy pad on it, and a 45/70 with a steel shoulder bruiser.
Don

dpastor · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2004, 10:15:20 AM »

Wiscott

LIGHT LOADS??? Somebody mixed up something. Check out some other sources - Lyman (look for Pyrodex/BP) or other Trapdoor loads (i.e. 405gr/ 34 gr Reloder 7). They'll kick, but not bruise your shoulder. PS: don't let go of the fore-end when you shoot and you will be more accurate. There is no need to be a masochist just because you have the biggest bore at the range.

Wlscott · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2004, 12:03:25 PM »

dpastor,

From the Hodgdon website:

45-70 GOVERNMENT (TRAPDOOR RIFLE)
CASE: WINCHESTER

BBL: 24"
PR: CCI 200

300 GR. SIE HP
COL: 2.525"

VARGET 63.0 C 2020 23,800 CUP
H335 63.5 2143 27,400 CUP
H4895 62.0 C 1974 21,000 CUP
BENCHMARK 63.5 C 2113 27,400 CUP
H322 60.0 2142 28,000 CUP
H4198 55.0 2221 27,600 CUP

I'm new to reloading for the 45-70, so I assumed that since these are "trapdoor loads" that they would be considered "light" loads :eek:

I started at about 3.5% below the max charge (55 grains) and worked up to 55 grains.

I shoot heavy recoiling rifles quite a bit (300's and 338's chambered in fairly light platforms) so I'm not completely thrown off by the recoil.

I'll deal with it (READ: I'll wear a pus pad and add weight to the gun :wink: )

marv · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2004, 12:55:22 PM »

WL Scott
I don't have my books [reloading] here. But looking at those loads
they look hotter than trap door loads. I have a Rem Rolling Block,
I start with 405 cast, 20 grains of IMR 4198 it is about all I want,
rifle OVER 11 lbs, :eek: Marv.

stolivar · « **Reply #10 on:** May 10, 2004, 04:55:57 PM »

lite loads my ass...... 36 grains is max with 4198 for the trapdoor. those are max loads for marlin....

steve

stolivar · « **Reply #11 on:** May 10, 2004, 04:59:45 PM »

on page 291 of hodgdons no 27 for trapdoor loads it list only 45- 54 grains for h4198 for marlin it list 55-60 grains. most trapdoor loads in most of my other books list only 36 grains for h4198 as a trapdoor load...

steve

Wlscott · « **Reply #12 on:** May 11, 2004, 02:49:48 AM »

So do you think if someone where to load these for a trapdoor, it would damage the gun?

Honestly.....I couldn't care less if you call them Trapdoor loads or Marlin loads. I'm just trying to work up a good hunting load that gives me acceptable accuracy to hit a deer out to a hundred yards.

I was just working with the information I had at hand.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 11, 2004, 03:15:07 AM »

Wiscott:

The 55 grains of H4198 is the max Trapdoor load from my Hodgdons Annual reloader publication

the load is as follows from a 24" barrel;

300 grain SIE HP Dia:458 COL 2.525"
CCI primer case Winchester
H4198 45 grains 1807 fps 16,700 cup 55 grains 2221 fps 27,600 cup

For shooting at 100 yards the start load will work fine,and not punish you from the bench as much...the 55 grain load I used with the Nosler 300 grain from my 1895 Marlin...but I also used different cases and primers as well...the velocity was a-bit higher averaging 2288 fps due to the different bearing surface of the bullets and components too. Even out of my ported Marlin..they were stout..but not punishing...other words I've shot a-lot more rifle/load combinations that hurt a great deal more

My 48th edition Lyman reloading manual has the following trapdoor load for the Nosler;

cases Remingtons
primers Rem 9 1/2
trim to 2.095"

Varget 47.0 grains 1447 fps 13,300 cup 52.5 grains 1617 fps 16,700 cup

So you see the Trapdoor loads are significantly lighter than yours,hence not as much recoil...like I said if you just want a range of 100 yards..you can load a-lot lighter and still meet you criteria...

Mac

50 Calshtr · « **Reply #14 on:** May 11, 2004, 03:59:21 AM »

WIscott,
As other posts have noted that load is on the hot side for a trapdoor, also noted is yours is not a trapdoor. That being said my son shoots 40 gr of IMR 4198 behind the 300 gr HP in his NEF and I shoot 50 in my Ruger #1. Both loads have killed about twenty deer in the last ten years with a single shot apiece from any angle, top to bottom, left to right, front to rear, you name it. All but two were complete pass-thrus. Both loads are quite accurate, under 2 inches at 100 yds. Bottom line, load to 1800 to 2100 fps and whatever recoil level you're compfortable with and the 45-70 will do the job with a reasonable hit.
Best.

ratherbefishin · « **Reply #15 on:** May 11, 2004, 06:49:13 AM »

would the 45-70 kick substantially less in the 8 lb Buffalo?

Wlscott · « **Reply #16 on:** May 12, 2004, 01:21:52 PM »

Well, I added some weight to the gun, and used a recoil pad this time. I melted some lead wheel weights into an 8" long peice of 3/4" copper tubing, and slid that into the buttstock.

It helped quite a bit actually.

I fired about 15 of the 54 grain loads (averaged 2330 fps), and about 8 of the 55 grain loads. I was getting some funny readings from the chrono so I really don't know what the 55 grain loads were doing.

I did get one group from the 54 grain loads that had two touching, then one about an inch away.

I'm going to try some heavier bullet weights in this gun next. Probably 405 grain FP's of some kind.

jeff223 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 12, 2004, 02:27:34 PM »

wes,what i did on my 10ga turkey gun was to take the steel bar out of the butt stock.then i cut a peace of cardboard the size of the hole in the butt stock.you poke this cardboard down to the bottom of the hole so it covers the head of the stock bolt.this cardboard protects the bolt from the lead that i added to the butt stock.what i used for the weight was lead shot.i filled the butt stock hole up to about 3/4 inch from the top,then i put the recoil pad back on.this lead shot can move around some in there.it seems to cut the recoil a little more than just dead weight.the shot can move around and bang into each other cutting the recoil.the shot weights about the same as the stock weight that came with the gun from nef.then i put the steel bar in my 223 when i want to shoot for a good group.that helps with that too

handirifle · « **Reply #18 on:** May 12, 2004, 02:43:45 PM »

wlscott
Just read your question,
Mostly for recoil. I think the gun would fare better than me. I learned this from my BC loads.

Fred M · « **Reply #19 on:** May 12, 2004, 02:48:40 PM »

If you guys want a real recoil pad get a "Limb Saver" it got all the rest of them out distant. It is very high tech. I put one on my 300 Win Mag and it makes a big difference.

Fred M

http://www.limbsaver.com/limbsaver/firearms/firearms.aspx

jeff223 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 12, 2004, 03:56:05 PM »

thats what i have heard Fred.i never tried one as of yet.my 10ga might look real good with one of those installed on it :grin:

Wlscott · « **Reply #21 on:** May 12, 2004, 04:49:43 PM »

Fred, I am loading for a friend's Tikka 300WSM right now, and he just had me put a Limb Saver on his gun. You are right, it does help a bunch. I may put one on my Ultra also, just haven't had time to do it yet.

Fred M · « **Reply #22 on:** May 12, 2004, 06:14:20 PM »

You wont regret a Limb Saver. I have a slip on one for my light 3" 20g O/U it is great on that one too. The 300 Win Model fits quite a few guns. The fit is very good, with very little over hang. For a field gun I don't worry about it. You can get full size templates off the internet to select the right size without trimming for all sorts of guns. That stuff is no fun too trim but they told me at the Shot Show that it can be done, but not much since it would destroy the hydraulic innards. Since I got the two pads as a show special I don't know what they cost. It is around $40.00.

Fred M.

mattparliament · « **Reply #23 on:** May 19, 2004, 09:08:06 AM »

Hey, I put a sock full of lead 5 shot in my synthetic stock when I shoot my 32" barrelled 45-70. This helped immensly. It tames the 59 grains of H4198 to a nice push. Plus it's fully removeable when I'm shooting my other barrels.....

Big Blue · « **Reply #24 on:** May 22, 2004, 10:43:19 AM »

Have any of you guys tried switching the stock on your BC, for one of the NEF stocks with a factory recoil pad? I haven't tried it yet, but I thought it would have to help, at least while shooting from the bench. I'm taking a ride to Cabellas tonight, to see what they have in the way of a pad for the BC. I know they carry the Limbsaver pads, but I want to get one that can be ground to fit, and I don't know if the Limbsavers will work that way.
I just loaded some Triple Seven 45/70's using 60 gr. of 777 and a 405 gr. FNGC cast bullets from T+T. They list about 1260 FPS on the Hodgdon site, but it doesn't say from what size barrel. I was currious if they would kick more or less than the smokeless powder rounds. I'll bet all that smoke looks sharp when they're fired!
Don

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #25 on:** May 22, 2004, 11:33:13 AM »

wlscott -

can you post you chronograph results for the groups you shot ?

sg

Wlscott · « **Reply #26 on:** May 22, 2004, 01:28:16 PM »

Scattergunner, I don't have them in front of me right now. I'll have to get them out of the shop later tonight. I'll post them then.

Edited to say:

Mat......59 GRAINS!! My god man are you crazy?? :shock: :shock:

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #27 on:** May 22, 2004, 01:58:06 PM »

good, the chronograph readings are a great indication of your interior ballistics !

sg