Heavy Leading problems with cast bullets in 9x18

[nhamilto40]

I am getting heavy leading in my 9x18 Makarov.  After 20 rounds the bore has heavy lead smears starting about one inch ahead on the chamber and extending about two inches.  There in also a lot of loose lead strips in the bore.
 
My load is a lee 365-95-1R over 3.6 grains of titegroup. According to Hodgdon this load should be yielding about 1000 ft/s and about 22,500 psi.
 
I cast these bullets from wheel weights, air cooled, and tumble lubed with lee liquid alox thinned with about 50% naptha. The bullets weigh 98 grains.  The bullets where not sized. The lube is fairly thin, similar to a typical 22 lr bullet.
 
The bore on this gun is in perfect condition; smooth, shiny, and factory chrome lined.
 
Should I
1) water quench  
2) apply heavier lube
3) size  
4) other ideas?
 
Thanks for taking the time to help me.

[Nobade]

Slug the bore and see what size it really is. Mic the inside mouth of several fired cases and see how big a bullet it will accept. Hopefully the two are compatable. If it fits right it shouldn't lead.

[Lloyd Smale]

could be a combination of trobles First check your barrel it could just be rough and need lapping. Then i would size the bullets to .356 to start and use a good soft lube. I use tumble lube in some aplications but ive found it doesnt work well in others. Then i would try switching powders titegroup is notorious for causing a little extra leading. Try some bullseye or redot. If your worried about clean burning try some aa2 vitivouri 320 or 310 I dont worry much about clean burning powders but i dont shoot alot of autos either. YOur alloy is plenty hard for the application if anything it may be a little to hard.

[Dusty Miller]

Try switching to a gas checked bullet and maybe harder lead.

[nhamilto40]

Nobade:   I will slug the bore and measure the bullet diameter as soon as I receive my micrometer. As I said above I am using these bullets as cast so I don't have any easy way to enlarge them.
 
Lloyd Smale:  The bore is smooth, polished, and chrome plated. The 9x18 takes a nominal .363 (jacketed) to .365 (cast) bullet not the .356 used by standard 9mm. The suggestions on lube and powder sound like they would be worth trying.
 
Dusty Miller: Gas check molds for the 9x18 are strictly custom jobs.  The only two common production molds are the Lee 365-95-1R and the  Saeco #940 for about $65 plus handles. Harder lead would be easy but Lloyd seems to think it would not help.

[Leftoverdj]

Dollars to doughnuts (not as long odds as it used to be), you have a loose bore, a tight mould, or both. I'm a little wary of that thinned LA, but almost any lube should work for what you are doing.

[Thomas Krupinski]

You might not be getting the speed you think you are from the published data if you have not put them through a crony.  

If you are going substantially slower than you think, you may need a softer alloy rather than a harder one to make the bullet obturate and fit the bore.  If there is room for the gas to slip by you will have leading.  

This will fit in with Leftoverdj's comments.  I also would recommend that you double lube with the thinned Liquid Alox, or just use it unthined.

[jgalar]

Could your bullets be getting boogered up in the trip from the magazine up the feed ramp and into the chamber?

[Chargar]

You do not need a harder alloy or a gas check. When things are done right, your alloy and a plain base bullet are just fine for 1,000 fps.

Your problems are one of the following or a combination of the two.

1. Lousy lube..Use a regular lube and forget the tumble junk. My guess is that will cure your problems. Get some good lube and smear some into the lube groove with your fingers. This is messy, but will do the job for a few round. Load and shoot and that should take care of your problem. Be certain to wipe the base of the bullet clean before loading.

2. Undersize bullets. Without a micrometer to measure your bullets and measure the slug which you will pass through the bore, you are just guessing. If this is the problem, the only remedy is a new mould as you are already shooting them unsized.

[ButlerFord45]

Just "thinking aloud", you mentioned jacketed and lead bullets, if you don't remove the copper fouling before using lead bullets you're setting up a situation that is highly conducive to lead fouling.  The bullet you describe PROPERLY SIZED through a clean barrel with a good lube should shoot all day without leading.  I've never used liquid alox, but enough people swear BY it, I would tend to believe that it works, is it possible that you're thinning it to much?



Post Script:
I wonder if the chrome lined barrel would have anything to do with it?

[Leftoverdj]

I've used Liquid Alox for tens of thousands of rounds at velocities up to twice those from a Mak. There ain't nothing wrong with LA although this method of application could be failing to get enough on. Even that is remote.

I've worked with chromed bores, although not in a Mak, and they are slicker. That ain't the problem, neither, although it is remotely possible that the bore was so rough before it was chromed that it was still rough after.

Nose damage in cycling ain't gonna cause leading. The part that counts is safe inside the case. Never used Titegroup, but I can't see 3.6 grains of nothing causing base melting.

All I can see that's left is undersized bullets or an oversized bore. Lee will replace a mould that casts smaller than spec.  I've seen replacement barrels for sale at less than the cost of a custom mould.

[nhamilto40]

Update:

I got the micrometer and did some measuring.

bullet diameter as cast (data set from 20 bullets):

average = 0.3671"
minimum = 0.3661"
maximum = 0.3677"

bore diameter (via slugging):

land = 0.3553"
groove = 0.3656"

So the bullets are about the right size for my bore.

Things left to try:

1) make sure bore is free of copper/lead fouling
     -> I will clean with some ammonia based copper solvent and use the chore boy trick on the lead.

2) better/more lube
     -> I will try a heavy coating of full strength LA and order some soft lube.  Any suggestion on type/brand?

3) softer/harder lead
     -> I will try tempering some bullets.  Yes I know it's a long shot...

4) different powder
      -> This will be a last resort since I will be out approx. $18 on the slim chance that the powder is causing problems.


Anything I'm missing?

[Thomas Krupinski]

2) better/more lube
-> I will try a heavy coating of full strength LA and order some soft lube. Any suggestion on type/brand?

3) softer/harder lead
-> I will try tempering some bullets. Yes I know it's a long shot...

It still sounds to me like your bullet is too hard and your getting gas cutting around the base and to the sides when the bullet is not obturating to seal to the bore and that is resulting in the leading.  

See if you can mix up a batch of soft lead with a little of the wheel weight alloy and see if that helps.

Also try to double lube with the Liquid Alox.  Lube once and let dry, then lube again.

[Leftoverdj]

Add one more thing to try. Measure a bullet or two after seating it in a cartridge and pulling it. If your dies are tight and your brass hard, bullets could be getting sized a bit in seating. A larger expander would cure that if that is the case.

[txpete]

I shoot alot of lead out of my maks.I cast a magma 95 gr size 365 use magma hard lube.3.3 gr's of bullseye reformed 9mm luger brass win primers.I have shot 2 to 3 boxes per range session no leading.
I would think that maybe you are thinning the lube up just to much?when I use lee's tl lube I use it right out of the bottle no thinning.next check and see if the bullets are out of round.before lubing them roll them on a piece of plate glass to check for roundness.
if all else fails shoot me  a e-mail and I'll send you some of mine to try.
regards pete

[Chargar]

Your bullet are the right size. You alloy is the correct temper. Got to be the lube or a rough barrel.

[jgalar]

I would think if lube was the problem your leading would be more toward the muzzle. It sounds to me like your bullets are heading down the barrel cockeyed. See if when you chamber the round from the magazine if it causes the bullet to have excessive runout in the case. The feed ramp may be causing the bullet to pivot in the case.

[nhamilto40]

Update:  
 
I have heavily coated the bullets with full strength Lee Liquid Alox.    
 
I cleaned the bore with a chore boy wrapped brush to remove and lead and then cleaned it with an ammonia based solvent to remove any copper fouling.  
 
My next step will be to load up a few and see if leading is still a problem...  
 
Thomas Krupinski:  
I don't have a low cost source of soft lead.  I applied the suggestion to relube with the Liquid Alox  
 
Leftoverdj:       
I don't think that the bullets are being sized when they are being seated but I will look into it.  
 
txpete:  
It's nice to hear that someone has already made this work.    
 
I took a look at Magma's site; their bullet design looks practically the same as lee's.  The only difference I saw was the Magma bullet's beveled base.  
 
To summarize our loads:  
 

Code: [Select]

 
                Yours                          Mine  
mold            Magma 09-18-93 RN              Lee 365-95-1R  
alloy           ???                            WW  
size            sized to 0.365                 0.367 (as cast)  
lube            magma hard                     Lee Liquid Alox (thinned)
powder          3.3 gr bullseye                3.6 gr titegroup  
cases           reformed 9mm luger             reformed 9 mm luger (R-P headstamp)  
primers         Win                            Rem  
 
leads?          no                             yes
 
 
I take it that you have tried Liquid Alox for this application?
 
Thanks for the glass plate idea and the generous offer.    
 
By the way are you the same txpete that posts over on Gunboards Makarov forum?
 
jgalar:       
The rounds feed through the gun without any difficulty or undue damage; I don't think that is the problem.

[txpete]

yes I am over at gunboards mak. site,great bunch of guys.my first mould was a lee and I used the tumble lube but sized .365 they shot well with good accuracy.the diff. I see is I used the tumble lube as is sized .365 and then one more coat of tumble lube.let us know how things work out.
pete

[nhamilto40]

txpete:  
Again its good to hear someone with firsthand experience with almost the same setup I am using.    
   
I loaded up 20 of my recoated bullets and fired them.  After I ran a patch down the bore to dislodge any powder fouling I saw light lead streaks in two of the four grooves.  These streaks started about 1" ahead of the chamber and where about 3/4" long.  Three passes with a brass brush removed them.  
   
 
It seems that most of my problems were due to insufficient lubrication.  
   
To fix the remaining leading I will  
 
1) Try more liquid alox  
2) Load up a few with about 4.4 gr of unique; just to see if it makes any difference.  
3) Try to get a hold of a lee push through sizer in 0.365".  It might take a while since these are a custom idem.  
5) Get some solid lube and give pan lubing a try.
4) Buy some bullseye and try it out.  
 
 
 
To summarize the results to date:  
   

Code: [Select]

 
     
                txpete's old load              txpete's current load          load #1                   load #2  
mold            Lee 365-95-1R?                 Magma 09-18-93 RN              Lee 365-95-1R             Lee 365-95-1R  
alloy           ???                            ???                            WW                        WW  
size            sized to 0.365                 sized to 0.365                 0.367 (as cast)           0.367 (as cast)  
lube            Liquid Alox (2x)               magma hard                     Liquid Alox (thinned)     Liquid Alox  
powder          3.3 gr bullseye                3.3 gr bullseye                3.6 gr titegroup          3.6 gr titegroup    
cases           reformed 9mm luger             reformed 9mm luger             reformed 9 mm luger       reformed 9mm luger    
primers         Win                            Win                            Rem                       Rem  
   
leads?          no                             no                             heavily                   some light streaks  
 
 
Thanks again to everyone for the advice.  

[nhamilto40]

Update: I have found that leading is eliminated when the cast bullets are double coated with Lee Liquid Alox and loaded over 3.3 gr of titegroup.   :-)

[txpete]

good to hear that you have your mak shooting good.
pete