The fastest and most accurate Mil-Surp........

[Bigdog]

That it would - however, it would then be decocked and would be unable to fire?  I was trying to operate the action as if shooting, trying for speed.  With some practice at the range, I'd get better - but I don't like to shoot too quickly.  Not conducive to accuracy.  My Enfield is dated 1917, so it's had plenty of time to develop a glassy smoothness.

As far as accuracy, my No.1 MkIII is a very good shooter, but the K31 is definitely my most accurate milsurp rifle.

[RB Rooson]

Big Dog and Jack Crevalle,

....and my most accurate rifle is the K-31.   Shoot alot of Cowboy Action every month and had never even considered Mil-Surp rifles in my future.   A friend bought a K-31 and I was over to his house just talking and enjoying a couple of beers - and he brought out his new acquisition (the Swiss K-31).....I was fascinated by it.

What impressed me was the bore (how pristine it was.....) and the unique straight-pull bolt action.  I had never seen anything like that in my life.  The next day, he let me fire it and I was hooked - I had to have one of these just for fun and the conversation piece it would provide to others that I knew.   And man, the accuracy was unbelievable!

I now own two (2) K-31's (actually bought my friend's from him in addition to another); a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 and Mosin M44.  The Mil-Surplus Store was somehow getting into my pocket!!?  But what the heck, they were inexpensive rifles and very interesting.....

The Mosin's are not the most accurate, but really fun to shoot and everybody asks "What are those things?"  Kind of opens up a conversation with people that I had never met before......

So, when I take my cowboy guns to the range to practice during the week - I seem to always haul along a K-31 or a Mosin to "keep my hand in military bolt actions" and to start those great conversations.........!

It has been a wonderful new experience.....!

[Mikey]

RB Rooson:  ya'll best be careful there Pard, some of those mil-surps are period qualifiers with the Cowboy Action Shooting Sports levers and pumps and although not CAS stuff, some of those old mil-surp bolts might qualify for period correctness cowboy shooting.  Then you would really be hooked - wouldja go with the American western traditional stuff or wouldja go another way.  

Then there was the John Wayne movie with Richard Boone playing a bad guy and one of John Waynes character's sons, fresh back from college in Europe, toting a bolt action rifle that bagged dinner one night at 500 yd, so the line went.  Also, another bad guy had a bolt action rifle used for sniping work, so if the Duke can do it, it could happen to you.........  Oh yes, the same son also packed a late 1890s european semi-auto pistol - hmmmmm

And, then there was the James Garner movie where a bad guy with a Swiss straight pull action shot him in the leg, which had to be amputated.  At the time I couldn't tell if it was the short model (K-31) or the longer original (1890 something) but it was a straight pull Swiss rifle with white bone replacing the red rubber bolt grips.  

So, whatcha gonna buy next?????????????? LOL.  This be Mikey.

[RB Rooson]

Mikey,

What am I going to buy next?   Well, FIRST of all MORE AMMO!!!  Don't have a set of dies for the 7.5 or 7.62 mm stuff and actually it seems to be cheap enough to buy.

What the 7.5 x 55mm is cheap to buy!!? (I can hear you saying......)  I'm getting 60 round bricks of the GP-11 Match Grade for about $20.00 - it is excellent ammunition and I can't complain at all.  (Plus, there is an added benefit........I get to go to the Military Gun store and look around some more!)

I have no plans to buy another military rifle, but who knows what may be around the corner in the future!

MIKEY, have a question - how do you post photos to this site?  I have tried a number of times and get nowhere.  I have some pictures of the K-31's and Mosin's that I have restored.......

[Mikey]

RB:  I wish I knew how to post pictures.  I just got myself a new Dell home station and a Kodak Digital camera to go with it just for posting pictures.  Now, the first thing I have to do is learn how to use the camera, then I can learn how to post the pictures (LOL).  

I'm certain you will find out before I do, so pass it along if you would.  And thanks.  This be Mikey.

[Larry Gibson]

RB Rooson

"SMLE or K-31 or other?  (Remember both accuracy and speed of operation.......manual bolt actions only please).[/quote]"

Disregarding all the rumors, legends, barracks BS and wishfull thinking the answer lies in what is, or has been used, to win in Match Rifle catagory in HP competition.  Bolt actions reign in this catagory and ANY type action that meets the requirements may be used.  The National Match Course requires both accuracy and speed of bolt manipulation plus the ability to reload quickly.  Discounting the new custom actions available these days you will see M70s, M700s and M1903/M1903A1 actions modified into "match rifle" configuration.  What you won't see are SMLE actions, K-31 actions, Ross actions, Mauser actions (occasional a Mauser action is used), Mosin-Nagant actions or any "straight pull" actions modified into "Match Rifle" configuaration, simply because they don't cut it.  The different sights on the issue rifles are a moot point here as target sights can be put on all.  What are the two important criteria for selection of an action are speed of manipulation and the accuracy potential of the action.  What IS used and what ISN"T used should answer the question.  

I have used all the mentioned rifles, in military trim, and have conducted several tests to determine the "fastest and most accurate" of them during sustained fired.  This consisted of 50 rounds fired in a 5 minute or under time frame.  I use an "E" target at 200 yards and require shooting slow enough to hit the target with every shot.  I have run this test myself, with other experienced shooters and with inexperienced shooters.  Shooting position is either prone or sitting.  In every instance the the fastest and most accurate is always the M1903/M103A1/M1903A3 actioned rifles in military trim.  

Yes, most shooters with the SMLE will seem get the 1st ten shots off a little quicker (the cock on closing actions seems to always require a little more time to get back on target than with the cock on opening actions) but not much.  After the 1st ten shots are gone you will find that it takes just as long to load the magazine with 2 five shot strippers as it does to load any of the other actions twice, so after the first ten shots the advantage of the SMLEs 10 shot mag is negated.   I never found that much difference in sustained fire between the SMLEs, the straight pulls and the Mausers (M91s through M98s) with shooters not really experienced with those actions.  Given only experienced shooters the M1903s and the SMLEs run nip and tuck in sustained fire with a large target like the E target.  Given the same test on an F target (prone silhouette) the accuracy of the M1903s over takes the SMLEs.  The Mosin-Nagants and straight handled Mausers always bring up the rear in either test.  

If you have ever really watched a practiced soldier or HP shooter with a M1903 action rifle in rapid fire you do not know what smooth, fast and accurate is.  Most will use one of two techniques; the knife edge of the trigger finger supported by all the fingers extended and joined will pivit up from the firing position, lift the bolt, slap it to the rear in one smooth motion, the fingers are slightly rotated around behind the bolt knob slapping the bolt forward with the fingers pushing the bolt down in the natural movement while at the same time returning back to the firing position, again one smooth motion.  The other technique has the fingers extended and joined turning palm up as the hand comes off the firing grip.  the fingers lift the bolt and slap it to the rear, then they rotate around behind the bolt, slap the bolt forward and return to the firing position as in the first technique, two very smooth movements.  Both techniques are incredibly fast by an experienced shooter and still quite fast by the inexperienced when correctly taught and used.  It is only when a shooter grasps the bolt knob with thumb and fingers that things slow down and get jerky.   When the bolt is manipulated correctly with the M1903 neither elbow will come off the ground or from the inside of the knees (prone and sitting) and many times the head is barely moved from the aiming position.  From the kneeling or standing positions the action is as fast.  In every test I have run the M1903 actioned rifles came out the "fastest" and the most "accurate" (meaning the target was hit with every shot faster than with any other type action).

In reality there is a very fine distinction between any of them in sustained or rapid fire given a military context.  The exception being the straight handled Mosin-Nagants and Mausers.  I might add that a Mosin-Nagant with the sniper bolt handle isn't too bad in the sustained fire department either.

Larry Gibson

[RB Rooson]

Larry,

Very interesting.  Is there a website that one can go to in order to read more about this National Match Competition?

[Longcruise]

I'm not going to disagree with you but on the other hand, I have to question this.

What IS used and what ISN"T used should answer the question.

What is and isn't used does not necessarily reflect what might be ultimately superior.  It only reflects the status quo or what is commonly accepted.  What is commonly accepted often comes about as a matter of habit, history and experience (military experience), and equipment availability.  In the past, the American competitive shooter has typically gravitated toward the equipment that is readily available which has been US "retired" rifles from the DCMP or just at the local gun show.  

Swiss straight pull military rifles for example have not been readily available in the US until recently.  Twenty years ago a K31 sold for $600 or more.  Now they run $90 to $175.  Still, we are all creatures of habit and it's doubtful that many HP or National Match shooters are going to switch regardless so in my mind it is still unsettled as to whether the k31 could indeed outperform the '03 in the speed/accuracy department.  I do know for a fact that the swiss guns will perform equally in the accuracy dept given equall sighting gear.

[Larry Gibson]

Longcruise

"In the past, the American competitive shooter has typically gravitated toward the equipment that is readily available which has been US "retired" rifles from the DCMP or just at the local gun show."

I disagree.  HP competitors, especially Match Rifle competitors,  are indeed very competative and will use what is the "fastest and most accurate".  Cost is not the object nor is "what 's at the local gunshow" acceptable.  Simply put serious Match Rifle shooters will use and have used what is the best.  Take a look at the "space guns" available today.  

"Swiss straight pull military rifles for example have not been readily available in the US until recently.  Twenty years ago a K31 sold for $600 or more.  Now they run $90 to $175."

Again I disagree; Swiss straight pull rifles were readily available at bargain basement prices in the '60s as were Ross M10s and SMLEs and Mausers by the barrel full.  If they would have been the fastest and the most accurate actions I can guarentee the Match Rifle shooters would have used them.  They didn't.  They used M1903s, M70s and M700s (M40Xs).  

"Still, we are all creatures of habit and it's doubtful that many HP or National Match shooters are going to switch regardless so in my mind it is still unsettled as to whether the k31 could indeed outperform the '03 in the speed/accuracy department."

Perhaps you should give your mind a dose of reality and attend a major HP match and observe what the Match Rifle winners are using.  Most all of them switched from M1903s to M70s or M700s numerous years ago and in the last 5 years or so you see them (the same shooters) swtching to custom actions in fully adjustable metal stocks or using AR15 based spaceguns.  Either of the latter are hardly what anyone would think a "creature of habit" would use if they were raised on a M70, etc.  They also pay far more than "$600" for a basic rifle or action to build their rifles on so the cost factor does not hold water either.

As to the admonition that the Swiss rifles are as accurate as the '03s "given equal sighting equipment" is a poor excuse with the max effective range of an excuse being zero meters.  The Swiss rifles DO NOT have equal sights thus in the military context of the original question they are already behind the power curve, as is generally conceded with most military bolt actions sights compared to the '03s.  

I admire your devotion to the Swiss rifles, they are indeed fine rifles.  However, facts are facts and if they were the fastest and most accurate bolt actions they would have been used in competition.  

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

RB Rooson

"Very interesting.  Is there a website that one can go to in order to read more about this National Match Competition?[/quote]"

The NRA HP rules can be found at www.tngbbs.com/rifle/nra/hp or http://www.nrahq.org/compete/highpower.asp or www.odcmp.com/Competitions.htm.  Also try www.long-range.com or www.nationalmatch.com.  Both are good sites and they also have other links to more sites.

Larry Gibson

[Longcruise]

LMG, we are discussing "service" rifles here, not the "space guns" of the HP shooters.

In my neck of the woods service rifle matches are shot with '03's, M1's, M1A's and a few mouse guns.  I am one of the few who shows up with a "foreign" rifle and it acquits itself nicely against all the competition.  Not that I necessarily measure up to the other competitors :-)

The Swiss rifles DO NOT have equal sights thus in the military context of the original question they are already behind the power curve,

I think if you look a little further you will find that to untrue.

Swiss straight pull rifles were readily available at bargain basement prices in the '60s as were Ross M10s and SMLEs and Mausers by the barrel full.

True of all of the above except for the Swiss rifles.  They were not commonly available at all.

[Larry Gibson]

Longcruise

"LMG, we are discussing "service" rifles here, not the "space guns" of the HP shooters."

Well the conversation had evolved into the technical aspects of the actions and I was simply using the point that in "Match Rifle" any action that meets the criteria may be used (The K-31 certainly meets the criteria) and that the winning shooters will use the action that is the fastest and the most accurate.  I have never seen a K-31 action used as the bases for a match rifle, that should answer the question.

As to service rifle in original configuration use go back and read my post regarding the considerable testing done comparing them for speed of use and "combat" accuracy in rapid and sustained fire.  We already had that discussion and the answer is still the same.

"In my neck of the woods service rifle matches are shot with '03's, M1's, M1A's and a few mouse guns.  I am one of the few who shows up with a "foreign" rifle and it acquits itself nicely against all the competition.  Not that I necessarily measure up to the other competitors :-)"

It's good that you are competing but the question begs; what are the winners using?  Remember the question is; which is the fastest and most accurate?  Thus it is what the winners are using that will answer the question.  What is "fun to use" and what "holds it's own" does not answer the question.  Just tells us what also ran.  Also the '03 has not been a "service rifle" (by NRA, DCM and CMP rules) for quite a few years.  It falls under "Match Rifle" or may be used in the "Garand" matches.  Though most M1 shooters are now whining about the '03s winning all the time.  Guess the '03 can't be all that slow to win against the semi auto.

The Swiss rifles DO NOT have equal sights thus in the military context of the original question they are already behind the power curve,

"I think if you look a little further you will find that to untrue."

The Swiss service rifle sights have apertures and are readily adjustable for windage?


"

Swiss straight pull rifles were readily available at bargain basement prices in the '60s as were Ross M10s and SMLEs and Mausers by the barrel full.

"

"True of all of the above except for the Swiss rifles.  They were not commonly available at all.[/quote]"

Well, I distinctly recall looking at a bunch of them (not K-31s but Schmidt Rubin M90/03s - still Swiss straight pull actions in the same 7.5 Swiss cartridge) in barrels at the local Payless Stores in the '60s.  Maybe they weren't available in your neck of the woods but they were in mine.

BTW; I like the K-31 and the SMLE (though I prefer my Ross M10 in .303) and I shoot '03s, M91 MNs and Mausers of all varieties along with  M1s, M14s, ARs, etc.  If the truth were told the M14/M1A is my favorite.  However, I do know that with the bolt actioned service rifles (with bent or appropriate shaped bolt handles) in sustained fire or rapid fire there is not much difference between them for the average shooter/soldier.  But with an experienced shooter/soldier the '03s always comes out ahead.  Not my opinion, just fact.

Larry Gibson

[Stonefly70809]

The question at the beginning of the thread was about the fastest and most accurate military surplus rifle, bolt actions only please.

Did someone already mention the Swedes and I missed it? I shoot left handed and I have an 1899 Obie M38 that is my most accurate rifle I own, it is also much easier and faster for me to work the straight bolt handle. Also, the low recoil means I am back on target quickly.

Nathan

[Longcruise]

I have never seen a K-31 action used as the bases for a match rifle, that should answer the question.

Well, as has been pointed out the original point of the discussion has been somewhat lost.  OTOH, you make a good point with the above but we seem to have fallen into a discussion of what is used in the US.  The k31 for example is widely used in Swiss matches modified with diopter sights.

The Swiss service rifle sights have apertures and are readily adjustable for windage?

I'll concede on the issue configuration, but the rifles are widely used in competition with aperture sights both in this country and others.  Then there are the 5000 +/- rifles issued with optical sights but no point in going there. :-)

Well, I distinctly recall looking at a bunch of them (not K-31s but Schmidt Rubin M90/03s - still Swiss straight pull actions in the same 7.5 Swiss cartridge)

Might have been the 89/11 rifles but they are quite a different animal than the k31.  the M90/03 designation I've never heard of but it's easy to mix up these old milsurp models.

what are the winners using? Remember the question is; which is the fastest and most accurate?

Mouse guns usually win and of course they are fastest but among the bolt guns they are all fast enough including one shooter who shoots an MN M38.

I shoot a k31 with an aftermarket aperture (MOJO, less than $50) and with that alone it will match any 03A3 or 03 in the accuracy dept.  Like I said, if my gun is not a consistent winner it has more to do with my shooting skills than the inherent accuracy of the rifle.

I guess a real test would be to have one of the top shooters in my club shoot a target with my rifle to see what it would do.  I'll do that next time out and report the results here.