Dazed and Confused ... looking for answers

[Kilgor]

Is it possible that there may be too much information available on this site ....

Long story short - I am about to enter into the world of Cowboy Action Shooting and expect to go through at least 5000 rounds of ammo a year.  At factory prices for ammo that'll cost more than the pistols I propose to purchase.  So naturally I look to reloading as a way to reduce the cost of consumables.  Yeah, I know I won't necessarily save money over the long haul what with the cost of all the extras one will just have to have but I sure as heck can throw a whole lot more lead down range for the same cost.

It ain't like I have a lot of excess funds kicking around either so initially I was looking at picking up a Lee Pro 1000 off of ebay thinking I needed the production rate and then I started to read some of the strings on this forum.  Seems to be a camp divided with respect to the virtues of Lee products.  No one seems to bad mouth Dillon and RCBS and Lyman seem to have a good reputation among this crowd.  Now, well I ascribe to the philosophy that a poor man can't afford junk (only the rich can truly afford to throw money away), I also rarely buy the most expensive product available.  So I need a good middle of the road set up that will safely produce 500 to 600 rounds a month without spending too much time at it.  So how about a SPAR T turret press?  How would this stack up to other similar presses?  And no I'm not looking for a Dillon Square Deal 'cause I expect to load more than 1 caliber although I could see using a Sq.D for the pistol loads and a single stage for 30-30 loads.  I fully understand the logic of starting off with a single stage press and working up to higher production machines after mastering the intricacies of each stage of reloading but I see this transition happening quite quickly so it don't make a lot of sense to start there knowing where I'm headed.  Although I do foresee a need for single stage press in the chuckwagon for depriming at the range.  Perhaps I should consider picking up 3 or 4 inexpensive but sturdy single stage presses, permanently mounting each one to the reloading bench with each one being dedicated to a particular function.

I plan on initially purchasing 1000 rounds of Black Hills ammo (38 spl.) as it isn't a whole lot more expensive than what I would have to put out for the initial components at any rate and will then provide me a stock of brass.  I can be easily convinced to forego this route and purchase virgin brass right from the get go.  What might your thoughts on this be?

Help me please get my head around this ....

[John Traveler]

Kilgor,

Ah, but if only we were all starting out again with your problem of deciding what to get!!

Okay, after 30-some-years of the reloading sport, here are my recommendations:

1.  Quality FIRST is never a mistake!  For that reason, I would stay with the established name brands of RCBS, LYMAN, Pacific, Dillon, etc for presses, die sets, shellholders, scales, and accessories.  You notice that I've excluded the Lee press products.  Some people swear by them, but many swear AT them, especially for production use.  The used single-station turret presses are fine, but I've found that being organized is more critical to speedy production than anything else.  I still use single-station DEDICATED presses to crank out the ammo needs for several family shooting members.

2.  You can pick up a couple used single-station presses quite cheaply.  Look at the local sporting goods dealer for trade-in deals.  Dies are also available the same way.  You will find many people start reloading, and then discover they would rather shoot than spend time reloading.  Used equipment gets sold or given away!

3.  Stay away from the one-off unsucessful pistol ammo production machines.  The RCBS Green Machine is a good example.  Too much tinkering needed to keep them working, plus they are no longer supported by the manufacturer.

4.  Go with CARBIDE pistol dies from the start!  A real time saver.

5.  Buy cases in large quantities (1,000) from gun show or mail order sources.  Once-fired is okay.  New is better.  .38 Spl cases last for dozens of loadings.  Mild .30-30 loads make the cases last a LONG time.

6.  Buy primers, powder, and bullets in bulk to save hazmat and shipping costs.  If you live in a large community, wholesale resoading supply dealers sell at significant discount.  Gun shows are good sources too.

7.  Do every loading operation in batches:  resize 500 cases, expand 500 cases, etc.  That leaves you time to relax between operations without getting confused.  Clean and store cases in bulk:  500 to the GI ammo can, etc.  Store primed, prepared cases in bulk.  Save the critical operations (powder charging + bullet seating) for ONE session where you can concentrate without distractions!  Do this, and you can crank out 500 or 1000 rounds in one evening without hurry.

That's how we used to set up our shooting club ammo production line.  A couple nights a month, several members would get together to provide the labour-intensive operations: resize, decap, expand, and prime fired cases.  Someone would stop by every day to recharge the case cleaning tumblers.  Someone with an hour or two to spare would resize cases, or expand, or prime.  A bullet casting hobbyist provided the cast and lubed bullets.  A couple nights a week, the more experienced members would charge cases, seat bullets, and box the finished ammo.  Using this system, we had no problem supplying the entire club's ammo at little more than component costs.

Your idea of single-stage presses dedicated to a specific cartridge is a good one.  There have been times when I set up and leave a press completely alone for many months, using it only for one caliber/cartridge.

For at-the-range-loading, the Lyman 310 "tong tools" are still great, plus providing authentic old-west realism.  That's how the old timers did it!  Slow, but I find it very relaxing.  You find them all the time on E-Bay very reasonably.

Good luck on your new adventure!

HTH
John

[hogship]

Kilgor....

While you're learning and working up your loads, you probably don't want to do large batches, but John's advice sounds like a time saver when that time comes.

One thing John mentioned that I must enthusiastically support......buy quality. You'll never regret it.....forget about aluminum and stamped steel parts.....get cast iron. BTW, Lee is now making a cast iron press.

Multiple dedicated presses, and turret presses have merit, but I've found that die set-up and adjustment is easy and fast.....deminishing the promise of presses set up that way. I can produce ammo at very nearly the same speed as a turret press.....with my single stage. If you have a reloading tray on each side of the press and transfer cases from one side to the other, you'll be amazed how fast you can go!

I had a Dillon RL550B, and it's the only way to go for large piles of bulk pistol ammo. I went back to a single stage press, because I couldn't do things like check case length, headspace, powder levels, clean primer pockets, spot check OAL, etc, without removing the case to do these things on rifle ammo. Because of a progressive's advantage for handgun ammo, I have mixed feelings about selling the Dillon, but that's water under the bridge.....I don't plan on getting another.

As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat!  My methods are what works for me, and I'm not saying everyone will be best suited using my way of doing things.....but, there will be a few who will.

hog

[Lloyd Smale]

I like and use alot of lee products. The 1000 isnt one of them I absolutley hated mine. Go with a 550 or a hornady lock and load. They will  work great for all your ammo needs. Youll eventually end up with one anyway so why waste the money on something that you will replace anyway.

[Gun Runner]

Reloading your own gives satisfaction that you did it yourself, and you can custom make to fit your own needs. I have a Rl-550 and a rock chucker on my bench, plus a couple of Lee chalenger presses on a shelf. If your gonna load only one pistol cal for sass, and gonna load in bulk the 550would be the way to go. They say you can load 5-600 rds an hour. I do 300 hour at a pace I like. I also load other cals on my 550, but use it mostly for pistol cals. My Rock Chucker is used for rifle loading. Have had my 550 over 13 yrs and have loaded well over 1m rds. I load for family members only. As stated in other post here buy in bulk or at gun shows, it cuts costs a little. E-bay and gun auction and a couple other places have good deals on loading equipt. plus check out yard sales and estate auctions. Carbide dies are a must for pistol loading. Hope this helps.

Gun Runner

[rugerman]

:grin: Hi kilgor I've been reloading for over 30 years now and I'm still using the same RCBS Rockchucker press that I started with and don't think that I'll need a new one anytime soon. RCBS stands behind their products and will repair or replace them even if you damage them. For volume reloading I also do the different stages in batches and you can prep a lot of cases on a rainy day or during the off season. I prep all my brass and keep it in ziploc bags until I'm ready to prime and powder and seat bullets. That way all those loads are basically from the same lot (same powder setting on measure, etc.) . That was its easy to turn out several hundred loads in a evening. But when you start out go slow and learn the basics first then go for volume. To make your reloading safer it's better to use a powder that mostly fills the case so if you screw up and try to dump a double load in a case it will overflow and you will know you messed up before you drop the hammer, now after!

[Kilgor]

Thanks all - you are great source of information and inspiration.

Based on what you have replied and threads throughout this forum and others, I have pretty much decided to start out slow and sure with a good single stage press, a set of carbide dies, powder thrower and some case preparation tools.  I already have a scale which will be okay for the loads I am anticipating though I can foresee a need for a larger capacity scale at some time in the future.

First and foremost though will be a couple of reloading manuals.  I truly do wish to be an "old reloader" ....

Again, thanks so much for your individual responses and to Greybeard and the various moderators for providing such a great forum and source of information.

[ButlerFord45]

Sorry for getting in so late on this thread but the workload for the last few days has been full.
I started reloading about as cheaply as can be done, a Lee Loader and a plastic hammer.  The ammo I produced was as good as anyone's, but tweaking the load was difficult at best, so I started moving up the quality ladder and adding pieces to the reloading table up to and including full progressive.  Had I known then what I know now, things would be quite a bit different.  Were I to start all over, a dillon 500 would be the very top of my list, single stage as long as you want it to be, and as you "save money" add components to turn it into a manually indexed progressive.  You can economically add toolheads for each calibre as you go along.  Yeah, I agree that it doesen't take long to adjust the dies, just a few cases that you have to redo once the adjustment is correct, and adjusting the powder measure isn't a major chore, just a few loads worth and you'll have it in the ballpark; however, you could have replaced the toolhead, checked the load, loaded a couple of hundred rounds and been out shooting in the same length of time.
I DO NOT have a dillon 500/550, but if I were starting over, that's where I'd start.
I DO have a dillon press and can attest to the quality, I can't say anything about their customer service because I've never had to use it.
I can say that I have spent many Saturdays loading 1000-1200 rounds for Cowboy shooting, now I'm spending those Saturdays shooting because I can do the reloading in a couple of hours.
I use to be one of the biggest proponents of "start with a good single stage press" you'll ever meet, but hopefully with experience comes wisdom and hind sight is 20/20.

My .02

[williamlayton]

There really seems to be two camps here. Camp #1 likes the process of reloading and does not count the time. Camp #2 likes the production and does count the time.
Good quality last while the memory of cost fades.
Good advice abounds here--if you can seperate the opinions from the  :evil:   :grin: .
Blessings

[ButlerFord45]

Howdy will!  I guess I botched my reply to kilgor.  It's not so much the time aspect as the versatility of the machine.  I still like loadin', but sometimes ya just need ammo, 'cause sometimes I like shootin' even better.

[williamlayton]

BF-
I am of the opinion that you have not botched much in your life, and, well I don't think you botched anything on this'un.
Blessings

[Kilgor]

ButlerFord45 - Have no fears about your reply.  It is an honest reply and one I to which I can relate.  

I have no desire to spend days producing ammo when a few hours will achieve the same result.  Regardless, I do appreciate the benefits of starting off in a fashion that will require deliberate thought about each of the steps required to produce safe rounds.  And while I will no doubt move up to a higher production machine (as long as I find the shooting sport enjoyable enough to continue) I believe I will always have a use for a single stage press and therefore there is nothing wasted in getting one at the outset.  

So once again, thank you all for your most valuable advice.  I truly appreciate it.

[ButlerFord45]

I do appreciate the benefits of starting off in a fashion that will require deliberate thought about each of the steps required to produce safe rounds.  And while I will no doubt move up to a higher production machine (as long as I find the shooting sport enjoyable enough to continue) I believe I will always have a use for a single stage press and therefore there is nothing wasted in getting one at the outset.  

I want to make sure that the problem is not with my inability to explain myself clearly.
With the Dillon 500  you can screw in one die, and process all the sizing chores at that one station, just like any other single stage press except the process is not in the center of the machine. If you prefer to do all work at one station, screw out the sizing die, and screw in the  seating die in the same hole and do all your bullet seating at that one station just like any single stage press.  If you prefer to use it like a turret press (which is what the 500 is considered) and screw all the dies in so that you can leave them adjusted, ok, that works too.  If you don't have the extra money in the shooting fund for another tool head, just remove the dies and set up another calibre.  As funds become available and/or the desire for faster production starts taking hold, add a auto primer feed and powder measure and start cranking out the ammo.
The Dillon 500 is a single stage press as long as you want it to be.
If they would take trade-in's I could eliminate 4 of the 5 presses I now have mounted to the bench, the fifth is for shotshells or it would go to.
I promise I'm not trying to sell you anything, I'd just ask you to take a good look at the 500 before you make your purchase.
DO NOT buy direct from Dillon, their prices are such that they do not take business from their distributers.   They are easily had at several dollars less.

[Kilgor]

BF45 - Thanks for the clarification.  I concur that an upgradable turret style press would be a wise choice and I will give it serious consideration.  The Dillon 500 does certain allow for staged upgradings which is a good thing and the total cost of incremental upgrades isn't a whole lot more expensive than buying the 550 to begin with.

[ButlerFord45]

Kilgor, thanks for allowing me to ramble long enough to be understood.  What ever your choice, good luck with it.  You're gonna have a ball with the cowboy shooting, and I hope you enjoy reloading even half as much as I do.

[williamlayton]

BF-
your a good guy-
Blessings

[ButlerFord45]

LOL, will! What may appear tp be a white hat, is just an old faded brown one covered in road dust, but thanks anyway.

[Larry Gibson]

Kilgor

If you are loading just pistol cartridges (for both revolver and rifle) take a look at the Dillon Square Deal B.  I load almost all my handgun cartridges (9mm, .38/.357, .41 Mag, .44 Spec/.44 Mag, .45 ACP and .45 Colt- thousands of each) on it even though I also have a 550.  The Square Deal comes completely set up with carbide dies and is ready to go except for mounting, powder thrower adjustment and seating depth.  The only other accessories necessary are a powder scale, primer flipper and a case cleaning outfit  However, if you are also loading bottle necked rifle cartridges then go with the 550 as the Square deal will only load standard handgun cartridges.

Larry Gibson

[New Hampshire]

I have a Lee Loadmaster.  I found the easiest way to get this press to work is to remove its biggest weak link, the poor priming system.  I like hand priming anyways, so I simply do this before I begin anything.  Remove the decapping pin from your sizing die and rock and roll.  Ive also found that trying to full length resize bottlenecked rifle rounds (namely .223) can cause the process to get jerky, so I size those off the press (again, its not really a big deal because I like to size, tumble my cases again to remove the case lube, then prime.)  The pistol rounds I have found to size just fine on the press, just the .223 caused me a few problems.  Ive tripled my pistol output as opposed to a turret press, and when I get into a groove the same can be said for the .223 with just a few extra steps added.  Cant comment on the Pro 1000, but Ive found out how to get the Loadmaster working perfect.
Brian M.

[Kilgor]

Thank you all for your suggestions and recommendations.

FWIW I have purchased a Lyman manually indexed turret press, a RCBS single stage press, and a set of Lee carbide dies.  :-D

More purchases to made in the future but at least I feel have a solid start.

[ButlerFord45]

All good purchases, I don't think you'll dislike any piece you've listed.
Cowboy shooting=lead bullets, lead bullets=the need for a chamfering tool.
Chamfering tool and a set of scales+what you have can give you years of reloading without adding another piece. (but I bet THAT won't happen!)
When you're ready to start loading them  with Black Powder, just move on up a few forums. :-D

[Kilgor]

Got a scale (part of my shotshell gear).

Still need some brass conditioning and powder handling gear to complete the set.

Already been checking out both the Black Powder forum and the CAS Black Powder loading threads and indeed have already posted there.

Looking forward to a long relationship with the fine folk on this forum.