Any advice on powder and bullet?

[poorcountrypreacher]

Hi guys - I have lurked here for a while; wish I had found this site last year. I live in AL, and when they approved our 1st mz season last summer, I dutifully went out and bought one. It was only a 3 day season, but I couldn't stand the idea of my neighbors blasting away with a gun while I was still using a bow.

I have shot a TC Contender for years, and reloaded for it and my .308 both. I used to shoot a lot, but the past couple of years I've had little time for it. About all I've used my guns for lately is hunting, so I felt I didn't have the time to really get into BP shooting the way most of you guys are.
So I wanted to keep it real simple - I wanted to buy a BP gun, shoot it enough to develop ONE load, use it during the 3 day season, and then set it back on the rack until next year - that probably seems like blasphemy to most of you, but it was all I had time for.

I spent a good bit of time trying to decide which gun to buy. I've got 2 Contenders, so I first tried to find  a Gonic barrel - no luck. I wound up buying a .45 Knight Disc rifle on closeout. I talked to a guy a Knight and he encouraged me to spend the $ to buy their newest model. AL didn't allow us to use a scope, so I wasn't concerned about tack driving accuracy; I knew my 50 yr old eyes would limit me to 100 yds or so, and I liked the looks of this SS gun with a camo stock, so I bought it - probably a bad decision.

I soon realized I couldn't shoot it with open sites, but I put a Williams receiver site on it and was pleasantly surprised at how well I could do with it. Now, I had talked to the Knight guy about bullet and powder combinations, and all I wanted was one load. He said my particular model worked well with 3 Pyrodex pellets and a 175g Red Hot bullet. So I bought some of them and after sighting in, got a 1.5" 100 yd 3 shot group on the first try. I was shocked I could do that; it must have been  a little luck involved, but the next group was just over 3", so I pronunced myself ready to go on  my first BP hunt.

I didn't get to hunt the first day, but the 2nd day I shot the first doe that came along and it killed her very dead. I spent the rest of the hunt looking for a buck that never came along, but enjoyed my first mz hunt. Well, this year they have lengthened the season to 5 days and made scopes legal; I wish I had listened to the guy and bought their most accurate rifle, but  I didn't so now I want to try to stretch this one as far as I can. I just installed a Leupold scope on it, and sighted it in to be an inch high at 50 yds. I'm thinking that should put it prettty close to dead-on at 150 and about 5" low at 200. I can shoot 50 yds in my back yard, but hope to get it out to a range later this week.

All of that just to ask you guys a couple of questions.
1) I want to use only one powder and I hate the cleanup from the Pyrodex. Is the Triple 7 that much easier to clean? Are the ballistics close to the same? If I am going to switch, now is the time to do it. I am sticking with pellets either way, as I want to  keep this simple for now. I realize that I could probably develop a better load with loose powder, but I don't have time to get into that now.

2) Is the Red Hot bullet regarded as being among the most accurate? I realize I probably got a line of hype from Knight, but I wanted to develop a load as easily as possible and asking them seemed like a quick way. I knew I was limited on distance with iron sites, but with  a scope I don't see any reason this can't become a 200 yd gun. If I am using the wrong bullet, I'd appreciate a warning.

Thanks for all the good info here. I have been reading a lot here the last couple of days and learned a lot I didn't know. Thanks for any help.

[big6x6]

Hey PCP,
I'm from Alabama also.  Athens, AL.  

I have a Knight Disc Elite in .45.  It's the most accurate .45 I've ever used.  I've had the best luck with THAT rifle using the Barnes 195gr Expander.  It shoots REALLY good with that.  Using 100gr ffg 777 I've averaged 1.33 inch for 3, 3-shot groups with a best group of 1.05 inch.  I believe I'd try some of those.  Midsouth has the best price.

To answer your questions:

1.  Personally, I'd buy a couple of pounds of 777 loose and forget the pellets.  There's really not anything that difficult about using it.  And buy a "see thru" powder measure.  That's all you need.  In the .45, I've never had as good of accuracy with pellets as I did with 777 loose.  Loose is SO inexpensive compare to the pellets.  I think pellets are around $70.00-$80.00 a pound and loose is around $20.00 per pound.  If you want to stick with pellets, 777 IS a little easier to clean up but I don't find Pyrodex THAT hard to clean anyway.  I do HATE that smell!

2.  I've never tried the 175gr Red Hot but it's made by Barnes.  I see no reason for Knight to recommend something that wouldn't work.  I would certainly try the 195gr Barnes though.  They will also be a good bit less expensive than the Red Hot.  Either bullet will do the job I'm sure.

[poorcountrypreacher]

Thanks for the reply Chuck. A couple of more questions for you:

1) I notice that most of you BP guys are only using around 100g of powder - is this for accuracy reasons? Looking at the numbers, I don't understand why you would want to use only about 75% of a gun's potential. That is not the strategy of most of the Contenderheads that I know - most want to push it to the limit, or past the limit in some cases. What am I missing here?

2) Based on my centerfire rifle and Contender experience, I've always preferred to shoot a light bullet at a faster speed, within reason of course. I've never shot anything but 150s in my .308 and love the low recoil and killing power of the Ballistic Tips that I use. I use 130s in my 7x30 Waters Contender and am very pleased with the same characteristics in it. So I wanted to use 150s in the Knight, and the lighter bullets is the main reason I chose a .45 over a .50. The guy at Knight admitted that the 150s are inaccurate, so that is the reason I went with the 175s. But again, it seems that most of you guys prefer much heavier bullets. I wonder what I am missing again?

I am obviously bringing centerfire knowledge and experience to a BP gun and I realize that it probably doesn't apply, I just don't yet understand why.

Well, I have quite a few Red Hots left, and about a box of Pyrodex, so I will get to the range and see what these will do before I buy anything new. If I can get them to shoot into 5" or so at 200 yds I will probably just put it on the rack and wait for deer season. If it won't do that, I guess I'll try of the things suggested here. In my limited hunting experience, the pellets sure are easy to carry and handle while hunting, and with no need for a powder measure, its just one less thing to deal with. The expense isn't that big of a deal right now; I don't plan to shoot it a lot in the forseeable future. Thanks for any replies, opinions, corrections or rants.

[grouse]

All Muzzleloaders are different. I think to find the golden answer on your
bullet/powder combination. You will need to bight the Bullet and spend time at the range, with different bullets. The best Bullet for your gun, is the one that shoots the best. The only way to find out, is shoot some different bullets. This is only my 2cents worth.

                       www.prbullet.com

[big6x6]

Here you go:
1.  Why 100gr of powder?  Let's call it "industry standard."  Also, 80-110gr of loose DOES tend to give good accuracy.  I'm using 110gr as my charge.  I'm getting right at 2100fps with the 195gr Barnes.  100gr gives me 2052fps and 120gr give me 2153fps.  After 110gr or so, you have lower returns for amount of powder used.  In my example, 100gr for 2052fps vs. 120gr for 2153fps I increase the charge by 16% but only got a 4.8% increase in velocity.  The BIG news is 100gr and 110gr accuracy was WAY better than 120gr.  So, in MY way of thinking, the 53fps velocity gain I get with 120gr vs. 110gr was not worth giving up the better accuracy of 110gr.  Trajectory difference at 200yds will be insignificant.  I just plain FEEL better with a more accurate load.  I'm the same way reloading for centerfire.  I'll give up 100fps any day of the week for increased accuracy.  Sight both the 100gr and 120gr load in at 150yds and the drop at 200yds will be -5.98 vs. -5.35.
2.  Lighter vs. heavier.  Well..  Lets consider a 195gr Dead Center gives 2056fps with 110gr loose and a 240gr Dead Center gives 1952fps with 110gr loose.  So by increasing the weight by 18.75%, we only lost 5.06 in velocity.  That sounds like a good trade to me!  Also consider the 240gr Dead Center will have a better ballistic coefficient and will offer more energy down range with very little trajectory difference.  I am betting that there would be VERY little muzzle velocity difference between the Red Hot 175gr and the Barnes Expander 195gr.  Downrange the 195gr would have the advantage.    

Does that help?

[grouse]

Does that help?

Chuck, your imput alway's helps.

[Cuz]

Now, big 6X6, if you will come and swab out the bore, we will be all set.
Cuz
 :twisted:

PCP, the advice about taking the time to go to the range and 'finding' the combo to fit your weapon is the best you can get. I shoot a TC Omega 50 and I had to 'play' around with several loads until I got one that "I" was comfortable with. And the "use loose" is most excellent advice. you are able to adjust your load and fine tune it to YOUR weapon and not just take some load out of a book or what some salesperson tells you.
Heck, half of the fun of BP is 'finding that perfect load'. Pyrodex or 777, that is a personal thing. me, I shoot Pyrodex because I am always tinkering, looking for that perfect load and Pyrodex is cheaper. the smell, heck that is just the $$ I ain't spending on 777.

PCP, I too, lurk and I luv to shoot and these guys are a great bunch and have many a grand idea to make shooting better.

Cuz of Kaintuck

[AndyHass]

Just to clarify a point already touched on, but you asked....
    There is good reason we tend to use heavier bullets than the centerfire crowd.  #1, centerfires shoot (usually) at much higher velocities.  This gives the light bullet much more energy (just from the increased velocity) than a muzzleloader could give to a bullet of that weight.  Since we can't get the velocity, we make up for it with increased weight.  
    #2, just look at the shape of a high-power rifle bullet compared to the common muzzleloader bullets.  The high-power bullets obviously cut wind better, ie have a higher ballistic coefficient.  So not only does a 130 grain high-power bullet start out with more energy due to its velocity, but it keeps it much, MUCH better as it travels downrange.  A .308 bullet has a ballistic coefficient of around .6, while .3 is considered high for a ML bullet!!  So the ML bullet sheds its velocity/energy almost twice as fast.  A ML cannot shoot the same bullets due to velocity and barrel twist differences.
     The closest you are going to get are the PRecision Rifle Dead Center and QT lines...highest ML ballistic coefficients out there.
     So when you talk about shooting a deer at 150 yards with that 175 grain Red Hot, I would caution you to think again.  Without looking it up I would bet you are probably below the minimum recommended energy level at that range.  If you went to a 220-250 grain bullet you would be fine.  I shoot a 195 grain Dead Center, but it has a BC of .375 or so, meaning I can shoot it out to nearly 300 yards to get the same energy you might at 150.
    To compare back to centerfire, if you talk to long-range shooters you will find that they try to shoot the heaviest bullets they accurately can in their caliber and barrel.  WITHIN THE SAME CALIBER, heavier bullets have better energy retention and a better ballistic coefficient (if similar shape too).

[poorcountrypreacher]

You guys have already given me a lot to think about and spend some time researching. I fear that my plan of sighting in the gun and putting it away until deer season is likely to fail - just what I need, another obsession.

Regarding the 175 Red Hots taking a deer at 150 yds: I am getting 2425 on the muzzle velocity. Knight's data says 2368, so their hype about getting 2600 with a 150 is no doubt true. Their data shows a velocity of 1818 at 150 yds, and still carrying 1284/ft.lbs. Even at 200 yds, they say a velocity of 1657 and energy still at 1067. That's about the energy level that a lot of .44 magnum loads have at the muzzle - I think that should still be plenty to kill a deer with a decent hit, unless these Barnes bullets are really lousy. I've never used them in a centerfire, but  I know people that love the X bullet and that was one of the reason I decided to go with them.

Now I realize that the Ballistic Coef. of a Red Hot is nowhere close to that of anything I've been using. If it was, I'd be talking about 300 yds instead of 200. But on paper, it looks reasonable to me that I should have a 200 yd gun here; I realize that the paper is often different from experience.

I will definitely look into the Dead Center bullets. That is, unless these Red Hots shoot so well that I am satisfied with them. I gotta get to the range and find out - I'd drop everything and go right now, but it is rainy and windy. Maybe tomorrow. I'll report back on what happens.

Sounds like most of you think I will be very lucky if it turns out that a load using 3 pelets turns out to have decent accuracy. All I can say is that it seemed to when testing with the receiver site, but I won't really know until I try it with the scope. I understand about getting better groups at lower velocity, I've seen it often in centerfire. Still, a load that is 30-35% below max seems to me to be giving up a lot. I've also seen some loads that had best accuracy near the max - my .308 load of 49.5g of W748 behind a 150g BT bullet is one that shot better and better as I worked it up. So maybe I will be lucky and this load with group well and  I won't have to become a BP addict for a 5 day deer season.

Thanks again.

[Underclocked]

An aside - have any of you looked at the blems Midsouth is selling?  The look an awful lot like SSTs.  At a bit over 6 cents each plus the cost of Harvester sabots.......

But I don't shoot those featherweights.   :-)  Actually, I'm trying to find possibles in the lighter crowd for the G2 but want to stick to full bore stuff if possible.   Think I have Mark Lynch talked into trying some crazy stuff with fillers inside a lead conical.   :shock:

[poorcountrypreacher]

I just did a little reading on the Precision Rifle web site - their bullets look good, but it seems they have all but told me that my rifle is a worthless piece of junk, with its 1 in 20 twist. Guess I should have spent the money to buy the Disc Elite instead of going the cheap route.

But I will see how it shoots before doing anything drastic.

[smoky]

If you decide to go the PR route, you can take advantage of the trial packs they offer and buy 3 and get one free.  That's what I did and it sure makes testing affordable.  And you may find that your gun likes more than one load.


smoky

[SURVEYOR]

I just did a little reading on the Precision Rifle web site - their bullets look good, but it seems they have all but told me that my rifle is a worthless piece of junk, with its 1 in 20 twist. Guess I should have spent the money to buy the Disc Elite instead of going the cheap route.

But I will see how it shoots before doing anything drastic.

poorcountrypreacher,

I've been reading your post. First thing is you came asking questions. Than you started giving out some out landash data. Then you state you got a 1:20 twist barrel. Grin! Well it all makes sence that you're blowing the doors off the barn with the light bullets and heavy powder charge. Grin! Something tell me you're not a newbe here. Grin! But any way keep blowing smoke and keep us posted. Grin! This is by no means a flame! Wink!

Good Luck,

Jules J.

ps; tell us more about your self preacher.

[AndyHass]

Your barrel is by no means junk.  It is simply MUCH more selective about the bullets and powder charges it will shoot well.  Knight uses essentially the same quality barrels on all their guns....their cheapest guns have better barrels than ANY CVA, WInchester, Remington, or Traditions muzzleloader.
   Your dream of setting it on a shelf until hunting season isn't necessarily out either...you just need to learn the gun and work up a load first.  Once you have your load selected, you can indeed shelf it between seasons if you so wish.  The gun won't change its mind.
   For PR bullets, try the 240 or 260 grain Dead Center.  The 260 was made for the 1:24 twist Savage, so it might work will in a 1:20 twist at a slightly lower velocity, like those usually reached with 777 powder.

[poorcountrypreacher]

Hi Jules - I'm not sure what you are saying; I had never read on this forum until a few days ago. What outlandish data are you talking about? The only data I have given is what I read in the Knight publication and my velocity figures from my very limited testing. Please be more specific. Is the 2425 figure what you consider outlandish?

As far as the twist on my rifle, the truth is I don't know what it is. I bought it from Cabela's bargain cave here:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/horizontal-item.jhtml;jsessionid=AWM4KFRTR2RX4CWQNVDCCOIK0BWUOIWE?id=0006397214111a&navCount=0&cmCat=srchdx&cm_ven=srchdx&cm_ite=srchdx&_requestid=30454

Clicking on "specs" they now say it is a 1:28 twist. I could have sworn that the same page said 1:20 last summer. The same gun says 1:20 on this site:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?sku=47265

I called Knight, thinking I could give them the serial no. and they could tell me for sure - they couldn't. But the guy said that he was almost sure it is 1:30. But he said it didn't matter, that the 175g Red Hot was THE bullet to shoot in it. I'm going to take my ramrod and try to measure it myself, but right now I really don't know what it is.

I promise I'm not "blowing smoke", but please tell me why you think that.

I really am a country preacher; I pastor a small Baptist church in rural AL. I am also a retired school principal. I'm also attending seminary; hence the lack of time for shooting much the past couple of years. I'm blessed to have a farm, but it also takes a lot of time. I enjoy deer hunting, but am probably obsessed with turkey hunting.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Thanks again for all the help.

[poorcountrypreacher]

Hi again Andy - Thanks for the encouragement; I'll certainly give it a good try, and hopefully something will work ok.

I spent about an hour reading on the PR site; a lot of good info there. I noticed that they had a big problem with my rifle and T7 powder; could not get consistent velocities with it. He noted that the problem was solved when he switched to the Disc Extreme. It had something to do with the design of the breech plug. So I guess using the T7 is out.

I already have a powder measure and scale for smokeless powder - it doesn't work for Pyrodex does it? According to the PR folks, 100g of Pyrodex doesn't really weigh 100g. This seems strange; is it correct? If so, I'll have to buy a powder measure if I go with loose powder.

Thanks

[SURVEYOR]

Naw! If you had a 1:20 twist barrel that would explane why you could push that bullet so fast and yet have control. In a fast twist barrel you need one of 2 things happening. 1 a very long heavy bullet to stablize with the twist, or 2 push that light bullet very fast. Not many people can push a light bullet with 150 grains of powder and have that good of accuracry in a 1:28 let alone a 1:30. Well for give me for being one of the show me group. When I thought you had a 1:20 barrel pushing that little bullet at 2425 fps I was feeling good about you thinking you were a ringer getting ready to show us some thing. And you did! Those are some out standing results in that rifle with that much powder and that light of a bullet. As far as blowing smoke I ment out the barrel as of shooting! You know, blowing smoke. Grin! You just may have a 1:20 twist. Mark your ram rod at the muzzle while in the barrel. Remove it slowly letting it rotate until it turns on revolution, then measure how long it took to turn that  revolution. Nothing wrong with a 1:20 twist barrel shooting that good. You are blessed to have those results.

Good Shooting,

Jules J.

[AndyHass]

There are two different types of "grains"...by weight and volumetric.  Just like ounces.  When they say 100 grains of BP or a BP substitute, they mean volumetric.  You can, however, volumetrically measure 100 grains of 777, pour it onto the scale and weigh it, then use that weight to weigh out 777 from then on.  You can get more consistency that way since volumetric measurers suffer from inaccuracy due to varying compaction, especially with FFg granulation.
   As for the twist, you will either have to find the twist printed on the barrel, in the supplied instruction manual, or meansure it yourself as described.  What happened was one year most of the major manufacturers put out 1:20 .45s, but soon found than consumers hated them due to their finicky nature and the fact that they shot VERY few loads well.  Some good brands (T/C, Knight) replaced those barrels...others stuck customers with them and IMHO showed you shouldn't buy them in the future by refusing to back up an untested-before-going-to-market product.
    If you are going to shoot a scope, and plan on long shots, I suggest the 195 grain .357 PR bullet.  I use the Duplex version in my .50.  Second choice would be the .40 240 DC (260 grain if your gun is 1:20 and will shoot it).  The 220 DC is a more conservative bullet that will shoot in almost anything.  The 250 grain SST is another decent bullet.
   For shorter range (<150 yards) anything will work...Good luck.
   Oh, and try 777 anyway.  It might not have worked in their gun, but that says nothing about yours.  Doesn't matter if it's the same model, each one is different enough to matter.

[poorcountrypreacher]

Thanks again for the info. No Jules, no ringer here - if the gun is doing well it is just blind luck. And I have not shot it enough to know if I really have any control - we'll see.

I did what you said and there is no doubt it is a 1:28. I tried your test several times and got a half revolution in 14". So I suppose that opens the door for my to try some of the Dead Center bullets. The idea of a .357 bullet is certainly appealing.

Thanks for all the ideas, and for solving the mystery of the twist rate. Now I just need time to shoot it and see just what it will do. Then buy a powder measure, some Dead Center bullets, some T7 powder, etc. etc. sigh.

Instead of sitting this thing on the rack, I can see myself out there trying to make the holes touch each other at 200 yds.

[poorcountrypreacher]

Hi again guys - I didn't have time to go to the range today, but I got to looking at my driveway and decided I could test my rifle by shooting out of the back of my pickup. There is a rise in the driveway, but by setting a B&D Workbench in the bed of the truck, I can get a shot up to 130 yds. Not the most stable rig by any means, I couldn't rest my elbows on anything, but the sand bags got it fairly steady.

I shot at 100 yds, still using the 175g Red Hot and 3 pellets. I had sighted in last week at an inch high at 50 yds, but I was using some cheap TC bullets and I didn't expect it to shoot the same. I got 3 shots into a 2.5" group, all about 2" high at 100 yds. 2 shots were touching and just to the right of the aim point - the other was to the left and could easily have been my fault more than the gun. I moved the truck as far as possible and took 2 shots at 130 yds. They were just above the aim point and 1.25" apart. I was very happy to see it shoot this well. I didn't get the Chrony out, but it was averaging 2425 last fall. I thought I had more powder than I did, but I only had 2 pellets left so I had to quit shooting. A box of those doesn't last very long.

I'm still gonna get me some loose powder and try some Dead Center bullets and the Barnes bullets Chuck recommended, but it is nice to know that I've got a very acceptable hunting gun. I want to shoot it some at longer ranges to see just how much bullet drop I have at 200 yds, but  I wouldn't be afraid to take it hunting with this load.

I got a phone call in the middle of shooting (a disadvantage of not going to the range), and when  I came back I forgot to put the ear protection in - ouch! My ears are still ringing. I will be hunting with my Peltors when using this thing.

Thanks again for all the help. I need some more help with cleaning this thing, but I'm gonna start a new thread to ask for it.

[SURVEYOR]

That's some good shooting! I've got one rifle that the only bullet I shoot is the T/C Cheap Shots. And she shoots them well! A good hunting bullet to boot!

Jules J.