Author Topic: Powder burn, and muzzle flash (Read 812 times)

mag41vance · « **on:** June 12, 2004, 01:38:06 AM »

I was shooting on a range the other evening and noticed the loads I was testing had a lot of flash that I was seeing through the scope at the rifle report. One load I tested had none.(IMR4198)
Should the powder burn completely before the bullet exits the barrel as the IMR 4198 did or be burning after the bullet exit. It would seem to me the burning powder flash would indicate that the bullet and pressure behind it are inefficient with a 1 foot flash.
Help me folks. please

The barrel is 22inches. 30-30

marv · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2004, 02:04:59 AM »

Vance In my opinion what you are saying is prob true. although i think
you will have some muzzle flash almost all the time. where you have
a large muzzle flash, the powder is to slow burn rate for that cal and
length barrel, that powder is not giving total volicity [sp] that it should.
IMR 4198 is problely to fast for 30-30 except light bullets, I have found
in 150 grain bullets a powder with burn rate near IMR 3031 works best.
Just my 2 centevos Marv.

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2004, 03:28:54 AM »

I'm in marv's corner on this one....but ya gotta admit the :eek: factor is pretty

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2004, 04:49:42 AM »

Muzzle flash does not always mean that powder is being burned outside the barrel. It can just mean that the released gases and waste procucts are plenty hot when they exit. I seem to recall that there are additives that the powder makers can use to reduce muzzle flash.

H 335 is notorious for muzzle flash and will make a far larger fireball than the much slower 4350. I dunno why this is, just that it is. This can be a problem for first and last light shooting, but it has never bothered me otherwise.

JPH45 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2004, 05:12:14 AM »

DJ and I were apparently replying at the same time, my computer froze up and he beat me to it. But he is absolutely correct. I wouldn't worry about the flash one bit. Nor would I worry about how cleanly or dirty the powder burned. Does the load produce good accuracy, and is the velocity consistant. Those are the two questions that drive my reloading.

If you took some of the loads you are making for your 357 using 296 and popped 'em off in a revolver at dusk I bet they would light up the sky. From your Handi I doubt you would even notice the flash.

WC846 from both my 30-30 and 45-70 give a flash that white out the scope. The loads will shoot an inch at 50 yards. I'm happy. I wouldn't want to be doing sniper duty with a flash like that, but the only thing I'm sniping these days is paper and deer. Neither notice the flash.

mag41vance · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2004, 02:24:04 PM »

You guys are top notch!

Thank you for helping me with these questions. I'm a rookie at this reloading stuff, and the many things that go into good loading fascinates me.
I ask DJ so many questions he probably thinks I'm hampered in the Brain department. :lol:
vance

Big Blue · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2004, 03:03:24 PM »

Quote from: JPH45

I wouldn't worry about the flash one bit. Nor would I worry about how cleanly or dirty the powder burned. Does the load produce good accuracy, and is the velocity consistant. Those are the two questions that drive my reloading.

I've been noticing that Varget leaves the 45/70 barel filthy, and was wondering if I should be changing to another powder to avoid this. I'm getting good groups using Varget, and after reading this, I can see where I was just being foolish in wanting it to burn cleaner. Thanks! Often more than one person can find answers in someone's advise.
Don

JPH45 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2004, 04:08:33 PM »

Big Blue, the problem with the 45-70 particularly is that we don't drive the pressures to the level where rifle powders are going to burn cleanly. It takes about 40,000 psi to get rifle powders to burn cleanly, most of us are shooting loads making 28,000 (Marlin 1895/Win 1886 class) or less.

I'm willing to bet that most of the loads folks are using in their NEF don't exceed Trapdoor levels which are 21,000 psi, half what is required for a "clean" burn.

I suspect there will nearly always be enough blowby gases to drive out any debris from the previous round and if not, the bullet certainly scrapes the bore down, I have not ever noticed an accumulation of powder debris in the barrel. I have heard and read disscussions of such debris being "ironed" into the microscopic pores of a barrel, and while that might be true, I wonder if that happens before or after minute copper or lead particulate begin to fill those voids, or if any of that really occurs at all. I don't have an electron microscope, but I do have a caliper that reads to .001" and I have yet to be able to ascribeany accuracy degrdation I can measure to bits of material being ironed into my bore, regardless of what those particulate bits may be. It the end, those disscussions begin to sound like people picking out the flyspecks from the horsesh#t.

I would love to see a study on the relationship of accuracy degredation and cleaning. With the electro/chemical cleaning processes available, it would be easy to document a rifles accuracy in respect to the cleanliness of it's barrel.

But I begin to get off topic.