Author Topic: Accuracy varience batween 2F and 3F. (Read 1220 times)

JS44 · « **on:** June 12, 2004, 10:23:51 AM »

When I got my Lyman Great Plains .50 last year (my 1st ML rifle) I automatically used 2F powder. Once I got the barrel broke in some it would shoot 2.5" groups at 100 yds using 90 grains, a .017" pillow ticking pach cut at the muzzle and lubed with Lehigh Valley lube, and a .490 Hornady ball. I was pretty mucn happy at this point but wanted something that didn't reqiure a bore swabbing every 2 shots and that I could also use with my cap & ball revolvers. One powder for both. I went to using 3F for all my BP shooting and thats when accuracy of the Lyman went to hell. Groups were more like 6"with 3F!!!. I could get by with only sawbbing every 6 shots twith it but the accuracy loss was not worth it. I had no idea the powder was causing the loss in accuracy. I tried varying the charge weight, patching material and thickness, and even the lube. No matter what the groups were still crappy. Today I took some left over 2F (all my BP is Go-ex. That's all I can get here and I'm thankful just to be able to get that) to the range today and did things exactly as I'd done them before to get the 2.5" groups and I got 2.5" groups. That can only mean one thing. 3F is not a good powder for this rifle likeI'd been told. I'd been told by more than one expert that 3F is the way to go with a .50 caliber. Is my rifle just an odd case or what? I'd like to go to using only one powder if possible but it looks as if that aint gonna happen. Besides I might be getting a .58 rifled musket anyway and that'll need 2F.
Any thoughts on this 3F anomaly?
JS

HWooldridge · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2004, 11:20:49 AM »

They are all unique. My 54 Santa Fe Hawken prefers 3F and shoots tiny little groups without much fouling. 2F leaves more crud to clean out so I have to wipe more frequently. 3F also shoots better in my 45 TOTW Mountain Rifle. You mention six shots and accuracy is bad with 3F but only two shots with 2F so did you exactly duplicate the process between both powders? For best accuracy testing, I wipe once between every shot with a damp patch and to be fair, only one variable can be changed between strings or the results will be in question.

JS44 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2004, 02:32:23 PM »

HWooldridge,
The process was duplicated when transitioning from 2F to 3F and then I changed the variables one at a time. Nothing worked so that's when I went back to 2F.
The accuracy is bad with 3F no matter how often I swab. After each shot or every 5 or 6 it's either bad or worse accuracy. It's just that with 3F I can go a few shots longer without swabbing and still get the ball to seat without beating on the range rod. It could be that my barrel is still a little rough and could use some more lapping with bore paste. It's got about 200 rounds through it now and I bore pasted it some not long after I had it and started shooting it. I thought by now the bore would be nice and broke in. Then I might get more shots with 2F without having to swab so much.
Thanks
JS

filmokentucky · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2004, 03:04:55 PM »

Have you tried varying patch thickness? Lube? I've had rifles where these became factors when I changed brands of powder--never mind granulations.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2004, 05:14:04 PM »

JS,

How do your patches look from the 2F and 3F? Is 3F one ragged or burned thru? 3F might be a little hotter and causing a problem that's not happening with the 2F. BTW, there is no law saying you can't shoot 2F in a pistol. Maybe try that and see if it works.

H

JS44 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2004, 01:12:53 AM »

Filmokentucky,
I've only tried what I have on hand for patches and that's the .017" pillow ticking and pre-cut round .020". For lube I tried Lehigh Valley, T/C Bore Butter, and Just Good Lube which is a commercial jojoba and beeswax compound made by Ol' Thunder Mfg. Vaious combinations of the above with 70-90 grains of 3F. Nothing above 90 gr because I don't know what the rifle's threshhold is. The whole idea is to have one universal load for just plain shooting and hunting. For that I wanted "3 or better groups at 100 yds and enough power to be useful for hunting deer at 100 yards. Muzzleloader or not, it's still a rifle and I have certain expectations of it or why even bother with it. I could not even get close to 3" with any type of 3F load. Nothing any better than 5".

HWooldridge,
Of the patches I could find there wasn't any burn-through with either 2 or 3F. Yep, 3F is definitely hotter. I'd originally considered using 2F in the pistols but was told by someone at the shop where I get some of my muzzleloading stuff that .44 revolvers wouldnt do well with 2F. Everything I've heard or read on the subject says to use 3F for them so I've never tried anything different.

I'll just stick with 2F for the rifle. I was just curious if anyone else had problems with 3F in .50-54 caliber rifles or why it might cause problems that I experienced.
Thanks.
JS

Trapper-Jack · « **Reply #6 on:** June 13, 2004, 04:54:56 AM »

JS44,
Have you tried shooting some 2F in you revolvers? I shoot 2F in my reproduction Remington and in my single shots pistols with good results.

Also in reading through the brands of lube you have used I wondered if you had tried a spit patch. I really like the price of this compared to the other lubes! I've been able to shoot 40-50 shots on the range using a spit patch without cleaning and without loss of accuracy. This was in both my Lyman GPR and a flintlock using a 42 inch CVA barrel. A spit moistened patch will work to swab the bore to a degree with every reload.

fffffg · « **Reply #7 on:** June 13, 2004, 01:06:14 PM »

2 1/2 inch groups with open sights are as good as it gets.. dont fret.. spit patches under the right circumstances will ruin the breach with time. if you want 2 1/2 inch groups without wiping youll need to get a 30-06.. black powder is black powder, and its why they made smokeless powder and coper jacketed bullets..... go to a shooting match and watche the shooters.. they all do the little things thier gun likes etc. etc.. a smoothbore can be reloaded with hard card scraping the bore down, then a bear oil patch with correct amount of lube for conditions will work continuously unless very dry or hot and dry weather.. coldweather will also couse problems..rifleling is the couse of your problems, and everyoneelses when using black powder.. count yourself very lucky to get good groups.. you must also be an expert in reading the wind, as it takes very little on blowing the 490 ball off course more than 2 1/2 inches at 100 yards by it self.. good luck dave..

JS44 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2004, 01:58:32 PM »

Trapper-Jack,
I might just try 2F in the revolvers next time I take them out. Couldn't hurt to try. MaybeI can eliminate 3F :grin: I haven't tried spit for a patch lube yet. Might try that too just for target shooting. I don't mind paying for Lehigh Valley lube because I can make a bottle of it last a while.

fffffg,
I'm happy with the 2.5" I'm getting. It didnt come easy either and I spent a lot of time at the range and at this board working up a good combination of components and technique to get to this point. The 30-06's I have are no more accurate than this Lyman GPR is.

Thanks for your replies.
JS

crow_feather · « **Reply #9 on:** June 13, 2004, 02:42:33 PM »

JS44,

Rifles, even 30-06's are unique. A 30-06 might shoot better with IMR powder than with Winchester powder as a 50 caliber Lyman might shoot better with 2f instead of 3f. I know it is nice to stay with one powder, but if I can get those groups, I would be thankful for such an accurate rifle and start entering some shootin contests.

My 58 is a round ball rifle that shoots 80 grains 2f for target and 120 grains for hunting. It makes me feel safe while in the woods.

C F

JS44 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 14, 2004, 12:54:10 PM »

Crow-feather,
The whole thing about 1 powder for me is that I have to go 50+ miles to get black powder. No one local sells it any more because of insurance and whatever. I guess I could order it and get slapped with haz-mat fee's and what-not but I haven't even looked into that. Black powder, being more dangerous than smokeless, I like to keep the quantity down as much as possible and still have enough to go shooting without having to make powder runs all the time.
The reason my 06's aren't any more accurate than my plains rifle is that 2 of them are M1 Garands and I can't expect as much out of a semi-auto compared to a bolt gun of comparable quality. The third one is a sporter built on a Brno K98 receiver and I just haven't found it's sweet spot yet.
Thanks.
JS

HWooldridge · « **Reply #11 on:** June 14, 2004, 01:02:01 PM »

JS,

Have you shot your good 2F load out to 150 yds or farther? Would be interesting to see what a very good 100 yd load does a bit further out.

JS44 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 14, 2004, 01:31:48 PM »

HWooldridge,
I'd like to try that but the only rifle range I have to use at the time is only 100 yds.
JS

crow_feather · « **Reply #13 on:** June 14, 2004, 05:55:18 PM »

JS44,

I keep about five pounds of powder around at my house; 2 2f, 2 3f, and 1 4f. I figure that if there is a fire in my garage and the powder goes, it's only going to do in a burning garage anyway And it will have to burn through my home-made sand filled box inna box to get that far. For the 30-06 try a 165 grain bullet with 48 grains of IMR 4064, or 180 grain bullet with 55 grains of IMR 4350.

I am not a pusher of black powder substitutes, but I can see where in some cases it does help. One thing that I have done before is to load a duplex load. I put down 5 grains of 3f, and then the rest of the load either in Pyrodex Rifle or pistol powder. The five grains of 3f easily ignites the pyrodex. I have also used this duplex load in flinters.

C F

JS44 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2004, 01:48:54 PM »

Crow-feather,

I use IMR4064 and 4895 too but usually with 150 gr bullets for 308 and 30-06. Thanks for the info on adding regular black powder to Pyrodex. I've never used BP subtitute and I'll just about bend over backwards to aviod it but I'll keep that in mind in case it comes to that. Hopefully that day won't come for a while.
Thanks,
JS