.357 and .41 Magnum Lever Action Wildcats

[Advocate]

Necking down the .444 marlin results in the .411 JDJ, a very effective round in the TC Contender but too long for Marling 1894 lever actions.


Have any of you .41 Mag cultists out there tried necking down a .44 Remington Magnum to .41 caliber and chambering it in a Marlin 1894 or a Winchester 94 Lever Action carbine?     Kind of like a shortened .411 JDJ. I   know of a gun writer who necked down the 45 Wincheter Magnum to 10 mm (i.e. 40 cal) and it shot like a champ in an AMT auto pistol.   There have been several  .40 and .41 caliber wildcats on the old 45 ACP case and the .400  Cor Bon which is  now a standardized round.  Why has no one done a .41 neckdown on the .44 Remington Mag?  Seems like a natural considering the good bullets available and the small but incorrigible group of .41 caliber fans out there.   Would certainly shoot flatter than the .44 Rem Mag and should be a nifty little whitetail/black bear load.  

Moreover, the .44 Mag was necked down to .357 and called the .357 Bain & Davis and data is published in one of my Hornady manuals.  Has this ever been tried in a lever action carbine?  


Your thoughts?

[Advocate]

Afterthoughts on the .41/44 Remington Magnum.  Existing reamers for the 411 JDJ could be used for chambering, just stop short of the full length.   .41 Mag dies could be used for neck sizing and .44 mag dies used  for sizing the base of the case.  Hmmmmmm....that still leaves the bullet seating die.

[Advocate]

Did some more research on the .357 Bain & Davis, the .44 Remington Magnum necked down to .357.  The 3d ed. Hornady  Handbook lists 357 B&D  in a 10" Thompson Center and  shows 2,100 fps  with the 158 grain JHP.

Just out of curiousity, I flipped over to the rifle section  to the fabled .35 Remington and noted that in a Marlin 336 with a 20" barrel the top speed with the same 158 Grain JHP was  2,200 fps.... a measly 100 fps advantage over the .357 B&D in a barrel that's twice as long.

They didn't  test the 200 grain bullet in the .357 B&D, but in the similar .357 Herrett in a 10" TC Contender  they achieved 2000 fps with the 158 grain JHP and 1800 fps with the 200 grain Spire point.

By comparison, the .35 Remington in its 20" barrelled carbine  achieved only 2000 fps with the 200 grain round nose.

What does this mean?  It means that  you can  rebarrel (or rechamber)  a Marlin 1894 for the .357 B&D and duplicate .35 Remington  performance in a shorter, lighter, "cuter" package.  You would also have an inexhaustable supply of brass in the ubiquitous .44 Remington Magnum.  Elsewhere on this board, folks have complained about the scarcity of .35 Remington brass.    Furthermore, the .357 B&D has only a 10 degree, gently sloping shoulder.  Why not do a 40  degree  AI type shoulder for another 100  or so fps?   The cartridge headspaces on the rim so fireforming would be a cinch.

With this rig  the .35 caliber cultist who likes .35 Remington ballistics in a short handly lever action carbine,  could utilize the  Marlin 1894  lever action which is smaller and ligher than its big  brother the Modle 336 and have access to unlimited supplies of brass as well.

Of course it's a wildcat and strictly and handloaded proposition, but that's the price you pay to be on the cutting edge!

[Mikey]

Hay Advocate:  I can accept the 444 necked to 41 caliber as the case is large enough to allow you to throw a 41 caliber bullet out at the speeds you would want to (if you can find a 41 slug that will hold together at those speeds).  But, I'm not certain you would get much of anything more from a 44/41 mag neckdown than you can get from the 44 mag.

From an autoloader, necking down a case gives you increased velocity, as with the 400 CorBon and it's cousin the 41 avenger.  The 40 caliber/10mm bore diameter is midway between the 45 auto and the 38 Super in both diameter and bullet weight (at 180 grains) and gives excellent performance.  I think there is a bit of a minimum that you would have to neck down to in order to get the performance levels you want from a bottlenecked cartridge.  One other thing we need to consider is bullet performance, and whether the bullets at the diameter you would neck down to have the ability to perform the way you want them to at those increased velocities.

I think your idea of a 44 mag necked to 41 from a carbine, or the 357 Bain and Davis from a carbine would make for a great woods cartridge. In addition, I think the 7.62x39 straightcased to a 41 or 40 caliber or the 5.56x45 straightcased to a 358 caliber, in either a lever carbine or short action semi-auto would also make a good woods gun.

Ain't this fun?  Mikey.

[Yukon Jack]

The folks over at Beartooth were discussing this a while back.  Here's the link to the thread http://shootersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3085

Mikey,
there are some excellent .411 caliber bullets available that are designed for rifles.  Barnes, Swift, Woodleigh and others supply them.  Also, if you want to shoot hardcast, nearly all of those guys supply something for them.

[JOE MACK]

Advocate,

Check with Gary Reeder. He makes a .41GNR, .41GNR#2, and the .410GNR. The first is a .44Remington Magnum case necked down to .41 caliber. The second is the .445SM necked down to .41 caliber. The third is a .454Casull necked to .41Caliber. The later will fit a regular sized revolver frame.  :-) RKBA!

[Advocate]

HI JP:  The .357 Bain & Davis (.44 Remington Mag necked down to .357) is an established wild cat and dies  are readily available. Wish I could claim credit for the idea, but many others were there ahead of me.  

Best.