Author Topic: Powder and Sabot Question  (Read 1726 times)

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Offline squirrel_hunter6

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Powder and Sabot Question
« on: June 01, 2004, 07:13:32 AM »
:D

I am new to muzzloading. I have shot my friend's T/C Renegade and Hawken rifles. I enjoyed shooting them and decided to get in the game myself. I wanted to try an in-line muzzleloader so I did some research and bought a 50 Caliber Winchester X-150 Mag. I went ahead and paid a little extra and got a stainless steel barrel. According to Randy Wakeman, it was a good gun for the money.

Before I start my questions, I will give you an idea of my hunting conditions. I hunt in a thick woods with a lot of brush and I will never have a shot that exceeds 100 yards. More that likely, my shots will be about 50 yards. I am hunting deer.

My friend always used black powder in his guns. I belive he was loading 90 grains of powder and shooting round balls. I know that there are substitutes for black powder out there. I was looking at Pyrodex on the Hodgdon website and I noticed that there were two kinds of granular powder for rifles, RS and Select. They also have pelletized powder that is made of in-lines. Along with the pellets was a warning to never exceed 100 grains. I thought that if the rifle was designed to handle 150 grains that it would be alright to use 3 pellets but, after seeing that warning I'm not sure. Is there a preference between using pellets and granular?

I have seen that there are a lot of different sabot choices like Powerbelt, Hornady XTP, and Dead Centers. I was thinking about using sabots in the 180 to 240 grain range because I am guessing that they will expand quicker on deer sized game.

How should I go about developing a load that my muzzleloader will like? I plan on sighting it in at 50 yards and then find out what it does at 100 yards.

 :money: Thanks for your two cents worth.

 :grin: SAFETY FIRST
Squirrels are my game but, Jesus is my LIFE!   8)

Offline RandyWakeman

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Re: Powder and Sabot Question
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2004, 08:42:15 AM »
Quote from: squirrel_hunter6
:D

 Is there a preference between using pellets and granular?




For 100 yard use, a 348 grain Powerbelt and 100 grains of Triple 7, Pyrodex, or a pair of pellets is likely a good choice. Depending on your barrel, the 300 gr. .45 / 50 Dead Center is also a very good candidate.

Powder is far cheaper, pellets are convenient.

Offline AndyHass

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Powder and Sabot Question
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2004, 09:55:35 AM »
Welcome to the sport.  First, are you using open sights or a scope?  I find scopes hard to use for thick woods and close shots; I have quick-release bases on my scope and remove it when I go in the woods.
   250 grain-range bullets are a good size for deer.  I use 195 grain Dead Centers, but you can't go wrong with 240-250 grains.
   For close shots like you describe, there is no real reason to spend all the extra money on Dead Centers/Precision Rifle bullets in general.  Maybe some of their cheaper hollow points, but no the poly-tipped bullets.
   I have killed 20+ deer with the Hornaday 240 grain HTP.  That or the XTP would be a good bullet to start with, they shoot well in a large number of guns.  It will also kick less than a heavy Powerbelt with a similar powder charge.
   I would suggest Triple Seven loose powder.  All pellets are expensive and limit the grain charge you can use.  Loose powder lets you adjust it to your gun.  Triple Seven is, by far, the easiest of the powders to clean out of your gun.
   For each bullet you want to try, start at about 60-70 grains and shoot 3-shot groups, moving up by 10 grains each group.  At some point you will likely begin to lose accuracy.  Back off 5 grains and try again to determine which charge gives you maximum power and still maintains accuracy.  If it kicks too much for you, you can always reduce the charge a bit as long as you are in the accurate range.  You MUST repeat this for each type of bullet, each will probably shoot well at a different charge.

Offline sabotloader

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Powder and Sabot Question
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2004, 12:49:07 PM »
squirrel_hunter6,

Randy probably gave you the easiest and quickest formula in the world to get started shooting.  I think it is pretty expensive though and I not a fan of power belts, but they work.  As you get more experiance I am sure you will change evrything more than once.

My favorite basic load is a Hornady 45cal 300 grain XTP with a Nosler Sabot pushed by 100 grains of loose t7 powder.  I buy a box of Hornady bullets and Nosler sabots separately.  Be careful of the bulet sabot combinations thay are expensive and the sabot may not go down your barrel very easily.

The most important thing is to have fun....
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline squirrel_hunter6

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Powder and Sabot Question
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2004, 06:31:54 AM »
Quote
First, are you using open sights or a scope?


The 2004 hunting season in Alabama will allow scopes on muzzleloaders for the first time in history! COOL! I prefer to hunt with scopes over open sights because it seems that there is less margin for error. I don't want to put an expensive scope on the gun because I'm afraid that it will end up getting covered in powder residue from blowback. I can squirrel hunt this area with a 4x scope on my 22lr with no problem. What do you think about a cheap 3x9 scope? I saw a Bushnell 3x9x40 scope at Wal-Mart for $60.

I will go ahead and try Powerbelts and Hornady XTP's. The Dead Centers are expensive; about a dollar apiece!

Quote
I buy a box of Hornady bullets and Nosler sabots separately. Be careful of the bulet sabot combinations thay are expensive and the sabot may not go down your barrel very easily.


Where do you buy yours from?


 :P Thanks for the info  :P
Squirrels are my game but, Jesus is my LIFE!   8)

Offline RandyWakeman

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Powder and Sabot Question
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2004, 06:54:29 AM »
Quote from: squirrel_hunter6
Quote
First, are you using open sights or a scope?


 What do you think about a cheap 3x9 scope? I saw a Bushnell 3x9x40 scope at Wal-Mart for $60.


 


Not sure how to comment on that one. :oops:

Offline sabotloader

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Powder and Sabot Question
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2004, 07:34:03 AM »
squirrel_hunter6,

if you do not have someone to work with in learning to shoot and clean your muzzleloader, keep asking question here, they will be answered.  

I still think if you are just starting Randy's suggestion of the power belt - and Pryo pellets may be the best way to start.  If you have help then maybe shy away from the pellets (expensive) and maybe the powerbelts again because of expense.

If I were helping you I would suggest getting a box of Hornady 45 cal 250 grain XTP or 45 cal 300 grain XTP Mags (pistol bullets).  Wal-Mart will have these on the shelf probably.  Next buy a package of Thompson Center 45/50 cal Mag sabots - they should be black.  Only buy one package until you are sure that they will go down the barrel, if they are to tight there are other brands out there.  Pick up a jug of T7 2f powder and a powder measure.  Set the measure for 80 grains.  That will get you loaded.  I assume you are using 209's load a cap and pull the trigger.  You have just begun to have great fun. if you are going to use the rifle for more than than hunting - you might want to purchase a range rod with a brass bushing to protect the lands and grooves of the muzzle.

The $60.00 scope? what kind of Bushnell is it? if it is a Trophy go for it, it will serve you well.  Of course there are better and worse models out there also.

There are thousands of bullet and conical combinations out there each of us will give you different combinations, likes and dislikes - it all comes down to you making the final decision.  I shoot a lot so I tend to keep the expense down as much as possible.  The only time I use the expensive bullets in when I am hunting and then I am stuck on Nosler Partitions.

Good luck - keep shooting it is a blast....
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline simonkenton

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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2004, 07:52:37 AM »
I like the Bushnell's. I have a 3x9 $90 Bushnell, it is the Banner grade, one step up from the Trophy. Give the Trophy a try, if it breaks take it back for a full refund, and send off to Cabelas for that "expensive" Bushnell Banner.
Most guys with the Trophy are happy with it.
Aim small don't miss.

Offline DEPUTY

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Powder and Sabot Question
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2004, 05:39:31 PM »
ACTUALLY THE BANNER IS A STEP DOWN FROM THE TROPHY SERIES THEY USUALLY RUN OVER A 100 AND UP IF I RECALL RIGHT, ALSO THE CHEAP SCOPE MIGHT WORK AND MIGHT LAST A FEW SEASONS, BUT IF YAH CAN GET A MID LINE SCOPE LIKE A MUELLER, SIGHTRON.

Offline grouse

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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2004, 07:07:30 PM »
The Dead Centers are expensive; about a dollar apiece!

     The only place DeadCenters are a $1.00 a piece is Cabelas.
www.prbullet.com

 I would also try out the T/C shockwaves if DeadCenters arent in
the budget.

Offline big6x6

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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2004, 02:01:55 AM »
"What do you think about a cheap 3x9 scope?"

Can I substitute the word "inexpensive" for "cheap?"

There are SEVERAL really good scopes out there for not a lot of money.  One I would consider is the Swift 3-9X40 #656.  Really good optics for the money.  The optics on this scope are in the same league as the Bushnell 3200 3-9X40.  $89.95 plus shipping at Stecks.  This would be my first choice.
http://www.stecks.com/656Swift.htm

Another good choice would be the Bushnell Trophy 3-9X40 #73-3940(gloss)/73-3948(matte).   $82.54 at dnr sports.
https://www.dnrsports.net/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=DSC&Category_Code=scopesbsn
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Offline AndyHass

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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2004, 03:44:56 AM »
Until very recently I used a Bushnell Sportsman (I think that's what it was called), 3X9-35mm.  It killed a lot of deer and I don't feel too bad that it is marred with residue.
  I think Bushnell is the best bang for the buck.  I'd not go below the $60 model though, and higher if you can do it.  The 40mm objective is desireable too.

Offline Wolfhound

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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2004, 04:13:17 AM »
I've got a Millett BuckGold that is pretty awesome for the price, however I have heard raves about the Buck Silver 3-9X40 model. Perhaps Randy will comment as he's used both models.

http://www.grafs.com/shopRegularproducts.cfm/startItem/1

Offline RandyWakeman

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Powder and Sabot Question
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2004, 04:30:37 AM »
No comparison, the Buck Gold is a far brighter, clearer scope than the Buck Silver.

The only scope I've tested recently that might be considered a "value scope" of sorts-- street price sub $130, is the Bushnell Legend 2 x 7 x 32mm. This is one terrific scope for the money: 3-1/2" eye relief, 91% light transmission, fast focus, fingertip click adjustments, etc., with a huge field of view as you might imagine.

Offline squirrel_hunter6

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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2004, 11:01:19 AM »
Well I went ahead and bought all the supplies that I will need to begin shooting. Unfortuanetly, Wal-Mart only carries muzzleloading supplies seasonally and I had to go to a local sporting goods store to get what I needed.

I bought a bottle of Triple Seven Powder, Flask, Powder Measurer, 245 gr Powerbelt HPs and 240 gr T/C sabots. (I would have bought some other types but the store prices broke me!) I also went ahead and bought the Bushnell Sportsman 3x9x40 scope at walmart. Unfortuanetly, I had to take the rear ramp sight off the gun so that the scope would sit right. I don't like see-thru mounts and I didn't plan on using the open sights anyway.

The guy at the sporting goods store sold some T/C Bore Butter to me. He said it would help accuracy. I haven't applied it yet and I was wondering what it does to the barrel. What is the proper way to apply it?
Squirrels are my game but, Jesus is my LIFE!   8)

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2004, 11:14:01 AM »
Quote from: squirrel_hunter6

The guy at the sporting goods store sold some T/C Bore Butter to me. He said it would help accuracy. I haven't applied it yet and I was wondering what it does to the barrel. What is the proper way to apply it?


Don't! :shock:

Actually, if you put a dab in the base of your Powerbelts, it should allow several shots before swabbing. Underclocked is right-- "Crisco tastes better."

Offline Wolfhound

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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2004, 11:15:24 AM »
Quote
The guy at the sporting goods store sold some T/C Bore Butter to me. He said it would help accuracy. I haven't applied it yet and I was wondering what it does to the barrel. What is the proper way to apply it?

I would take it back. Bore butter is garbage for preserving barrels. If your using it as a bullet or patch lube for shooting round balls it'll work fairly well, but I would never put it in the bore for storage. Use a good oil to preserve your barrel.

Offline SURVEYOR

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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2004, 11:22:10 AM »
Quote
The guy at the sporting goods store sold some T/C Bore Butter to me. He said it would help accuracy. I haven't applied it yet and I was wondering what it does to the barrel. What is the proper way to apply it?  


You're better not to use it at all. Bring it back if you haven't oppened it. Back in the old days when barrels were cast of iron Bore Butter was used to season the poures metal as one would do with a cast iron frying pan. But now barrels have better metal and Bore Butter is not needed. In fact the use of Bore Butter may rust the bore before you know if. As far as helping accuracy, well I've not found that to be true. Treat your barrel as you would treat your CF rife barrels. A good cleaning, and a light patch of some good rifle bore oil.

You may need to go here,

http://www.realtree.com/bluelk/index.tpl

good reading, a must read.

Jules J.
I''m A Dirty White Boy and I''m Proud Of It!

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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2004, 11:24:57 AM »
ZERO VOTES FOR BORE BUTTER!

Does that tell you something?

Jules J.
I''m A Dirty White Boy and I''m Proud Of It!

Offline AndyHass

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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2004, 04:52:57 PM »
I used bore butter one time before I knew better.  I had a hell of a time getting a sabot down the barrel the next time I went to use the gun.  It's CRAP.

Offline squirrel_hunter6

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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2004, 09:43:57 AM »
I took the gun to the range this morning. In 4 shots, I got it to hit the bullseye at 25 yards. I took it to the 50 yard range and it hit high left. I figured that I may have pulled or something to make it shoot like that. I shot again and it hit close to the same place so, I adjusted the scope. The next shot it close to the bullseye and I decided to go over to the 100 yard range. My first shot hit low and to the left and my next shot hit high in the center. I shot several more times and sometimes I would hit paper and other times I wouldn't. I was beginning to get worried.  :(  I started to run a cleaning patch down the barrel and noticed that the scope moved! My scope mounts had come loose!  :roll:

By the time I figured out what the problem was, it was time for me to go to work. Altogether I shot 16 times. I was shooting 70 grains of Triple Seven with 245 gr Powerbelt Hps.

I will use some Loctite on the mounting screws and hopefully this will fix the problem.

Quote
ZERO VOTES FOR BORE BUTTER!

Does that tell you something?


Thanks for letting me know not to use Bore Butter.  :D
Squirrels are my game but, Jesus is my LIFE!   8)

Offline big6x6

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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2004, 03:15:50 PM »
"I started to run a cleaning patch down the barrel and noticed that the scope moved! My scope mounts had come loose!"

Been there, done that! :(
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Offline squirrel_hunter6

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« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2004, 07:13:49 AM »
The place where the 209 primer sits in the breech plug was very filthy. I tried to clean it the best that I could but I didn't have a brush that was really stiff enough to clean up the caked on residue and I didn't want to put a screwdriver tip down there to clean it. I'll look for a steel brush that I can put in the slot to clean it out.

Now, to my question, is it possible for the tiny hole at the end of the breech plug to get stopped up? How do I go about cleaning this little to ensure that it won't get stopped up?
Squirrels are my game but, Jesus is my LIFE!   8)

Offline big6x6

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« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2004, 07:31:26 AM »
Soak the breech plug in hot soapy water for a while.  I use pipe cleaners to clean the breech plug center.  Sounds like you may need a nipple pick too to clean out the ends.  You'll also need a good stiff brush.  Usually a stiff toothbrush will take care of things. You can get it clean.  You'll have to get it clean or risk corrosion.
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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2004, 02:04:04 PM »
Quote from: big6x6
 I use pipe cleaners to clean the breech plug center.  


I wan't aware that you ever DID have to personally clean a breechplug, Chuck? :oops:

Offline Underclocked

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« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2004, 06:38:03 PM »
I have these plastic containers that are just about the right size to hold most breech plugs with a little slack space.  They have tops that almost seal liquid.  I fill one about half full with 624, drop in the dirty plug, do the tasmanian whirl, then leave it sit while I do the rest of the rifle.  Gets most of the stuff off and loosens up what is left.  Like Chuck, I use the pipe cleaners and sometimes squirt the plug with a bit of whatever else I have on hand if there is anything stubborn remaining.

http://www.techcheminc.com/order.html is where but not HOW I get the 624.   :-)
WHUT?

Offline big6x6

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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2004, 02:33:38 AM »
"I wasn't aware that you ever DID have to personally clean a breechplug, Chuck?

True that I Do typically have Kristel clean my breech plug.
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Offline squirrel_hunter6

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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2004, 07:56:31 AM »
I took the gun out to the range and I was getting 3/4" groups at 50 yards with 70 grains of Triple Seven and 245 gr Powerbelt HPs. I haven't tried any other type of bullets or shooting at 100 yards. I will hopefully be back at the range by the end of the week to find out what the drop at 100 yards will be and what kind of groups I can get.
Squirrels are my game but, Jesus is my LIFE!   8)