45 long colt vs. 44/40 WCF?

[Will52100]

performance wise which is better balisticly and terminal performance wise, the 44/40 or 45 colt?  They will be loaded with black powder and a flat pointed bullit.  Or is the differance even noticable?

I'm getting ready in the near futur to purchase an 1860 Henry, and the sticking point is the ammo.  I know 45 colt gets more blow back than 44/40, but the original round was a straight case, not bottle neck, and I've got a couple other guns chambered in 45.

I'm realy wanting one chambered in 45 colt, but is there enough differance in performance to warrent the 44-40 over the 45?

Thanks,

Will

[The Shrink]

Will

Everything I've read says that you have problems with a failure to seal with he straight .45 Colt case and black powder, and don't with the necked 44-40.  This leads to fowling blowback into the action of the rifle.  That said, the 44-40 is more picky to load, you have to lube the cases to resize them and the brass is thin.  It's much more like loading necked rifle cases than straight pistol cases.  

Performance goes to the .45 Colt with a heavier bullet at similar velocities.  I see this as a distinction without a difference, though, given the uses they see now.  Functionally they are very similar.  

Wayne the Shrink

[John Traveler]

Will,

Here's my two cents:

1.  The popularity of the .44-40 on the western frontier had more to do with it being chambered in the M1873 Winchester rifles and Colt's Peacemaker than anything else.  One cartridge for both weapons simplified the cowhand/frontierman/ranchers' logistics.  The M1873 Winchester was never chambered in .45 Colt.

2.  Blowback problems in .45 Colt with blackpowder has more to do with reloading technique (bullet selection, chamber and bore fit etc).  It's not a characteristic of the cartridge anymore than it is for another big-bore pistol cartridge.

3.  You can easily load lighter bullets in the .45 Colt, but you can not easily load heavier bullets in .44-40.  .45 Colt bore and chamber dimensions are more uniform too.  

4.  The .45 Colt was the choice of the US Army for it's closeup stopping power and longer range capability for the Cavalry.

5.  A .44-40 chambering with your existing .45 Colt guns makes this an odd duck.  Did you read about the cowboy that was busy fighting off Indians during an attack and he loaded a .45 Colt round into his '73 Winchester by mistake?  He had to disassemble the sideplates with his pocketknife in the middle of a gunfight to clear the jam!!

6.   Neither round is authentic chambered in the M1860 Henry.  The only reason for specifically buying a .44-40 is for ammo compatibility with other guns.

HTH
John

[Will52100]

Thanks, I didn't think there would be much differance in performance, we are only talking about .01" or so differance and they both hold the same charge.

The reason I say the 45 is more authintic is because the 44 Henry rimfire was a straight case, not bottle necked.

The reason I ask is because I am too poor to have a gun that can't pull double dutty, the Henry will be used for brush deer out to about 70 yards along with CAS.

I asked this question befor, but never got a good answere on ballistics.  Sounds like the 45 has the 44/40 beat by a small margin.

Thanks

[HWooldridge]

45 is .452 in diameter and can easily go to a 265 gr bullet.  44-40 is .427 in diameter and is hard pressed to fire a bullet past 210 grs.  44-40 is a very thin case and will not last as many reloads as a 45.  45 is much more versatile with smokeless.  There is no advantage to the 44-40 unless you just happen to prefer the caliber.  I own both and really like them but if I had to pick just one, it would be the 45.

[Ray Newman]

I agree w/ Poster Wooldridge. @ one time, I had a ‘60 Henry in .44-40 & the cases didn’t last very long. Seemed I lost more to problems w/ reloading/seating the bullets than to just case deterioration & this was w/ BP as well as White Powder (AKA Smokeless). Lead or jacketed bullets. If you do try the jacketed bullets, just make sure that the dia. is .427“. The case wall isn’t very thick & it is easy to distort the case while resizing, crimping, &/or bullet seating.

I never had a problem w/ the .45 Colt in my SAAs, but then again I did utilize a stout load.

One thing about the Henry is that you must be careful w/ the crimp. If you don’t adjust the crimp to securely hold the bullet & the follower slips from your grip as you release it, you can run the risk of seating the bullets deeper in to case. Been there & done that…. Another problem is the primer seating depth, w/ all of those rounds, you don’t want a high premier causing a potential chain fire. You must be careful handling/releasing the follower.

If you do utilize the Henry for hunting, I strongly advise working up a load very gradually. The Henry linkage system is not the strongest. I once observed a Fellow Shooter tie-up a brand-spanking new Henry because he shot some Ruger Vaquero loads thru it….

[Will52100]

Thanks, I'll go with the 45, but a question Ray, doesnt' the Winchester 66 and 73 have the same toggle action?  Not a real concern for me as I only reload black powder and shoot cowboy loads in smokless.  The hottest load would probably be a case full of 3f swiss black.  What exactly was damaged on your friends Henry?

[Ray Newman]

Yes, the Henry, the 1866 & the 1873 basically have the same design.

You said: “Not a real concern for me as I only reload black powder and shoot cowboy loads in smokless.” ??

Your comment & this thread rang a bell in my mind. I started to dig through my back copies of Garbe’s  “Black Powder Cartridge News”. In the Fall 1997 issue, #19, Red Meinecke’s “Ruminations on Cowboy Shooting” column discusses a blow-up of a Uberti .44-40 ‘73 Winchester. The determined cause was that the rifle fired before the lever & bolt had locked in battery--there is no firing pin retractor,  the tip of the pin protruded, & fired the cartridge as it was being chambered. This was conclusion of the gunsmith who investigated the incident & examined & tested the parts.  

According to the author, the investigating gunsmith regularly did cause & effect consultations about firearms accidents & had @ that time investigated 200 + firearms accidents & provided dispositions. Meinecke further stated that such accidents were not of unheard of in the past & that he knew of several gunsmiths who were familiar w/ the frozen firing pin phenomenon.

Meinecke also related a similar incident about a Henry, which had fired when the bolt was about three-quarters in battery. In that case, the Shooter  was not injured & the rifle suffered no ill-effects.

Reading of these two incidents are what caused me to “retire” & later sell my Henry. Not only because the toggle link design is not the strongest, but because: (a) I did occasionally shoot some rather stout loads in a Ruger .44-40 Vaquero & didn’t want to inadvertently mix the ammunition;  & (b) I realized that I needed to keep the firing pin, bolt face etc., scrupulously clean so as the pin would function normally--esp. when I shot BP.

As for the problems w/ the new Henry, I did not know the Shooter. A group of us were talking about rifles & he showed off his new Henry. From what I recall, he was going to “polish” the barrel by firing about 50 jacketed rounds to smooth it out before going to lead. The 1st few shots were OK , then the after firing one more ejection became difficult, & it locked up after firing the next round. I don’t know if he was shooting the .427” Rem jacketed bullet or the larger .429” .44 Spec/magnum bullet or the powder load. But IIRC, the rounds were those he loaded for his .44-40 Ruger. I never heard or could find out what damage--if any-- was done to the rifle.

I do know of a know deceased Shooter who “lost” a .44-40 ‘73 Win. to a blow up. @ the time, we all thought that it was “operator reloading error” as he was an elderly Shooter & Reloader. Now I wonder if the frozen pin syndrome claimed another firearm.

Just something to be conscious of….

[Will52100]

Thanks, I've so far only had one round pre-ignite and it was memorable enough to be very carefull in the future and that was only a 22 TC classic.

I wonder if a good polishing of the pin and bolt wouldnt help?

Thanks for all the info,

Will

[John Traveler]

Accidental discharge from an unlocked breech are not peculiar to the Henry/Winchester '73 designs.  Several other rifle designs without firing pin retractors also had them.  They were sorta common place during the blackpowder cartridge era.

The problem is that firing blackpowder loads leaves the firing pin, action,  and breech dirty with hygroscopic residue.  Complete disassembly, cleaning, and oiling prevents the "sticking firing pin" phenomenon.  In the old days, knowledgeable shooters cleaned their weapons promptly and thoroughly after use.  Apparently modern BP shooters may not be so careful.

[Ray Newman]

John T: my regimen was to apply RIG grease or TC Bore Butter (both are always in my Shooting kit) to keep the fouling soft & easy to remove between shooting relays  as well as provide some lubrication to the pin. bolt, etc.

I learned the value of these products when I once had difficulty removing the nipple from a Browning Mtn. Rifle during my ML shooting days.

[Pogue]

Because of the thin case mouth of the 44-40, you'll end up loosing some brass when you reload, because the case mouth gets dented when they hit the ground after cycling your lever action rifle.  Not so much a problem with a pistol.  I chose 44-40 for my cowboy action shoot just because it was kinda uncommon at the matches, but if I had it to do over again I'd go 45 Long.  For CAS, they're both good ballistically.