45.ACP Cart Barrel.....

[Hawkeye]

Is there anyone who still carries the Cart Barrels for the .45ACP?
I have one but would like another w/match bushing.

Mike

[Iowegan]

Brownell's stocks both the non-ramped and ramped versions but it's spelled KART.  See:  http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=7611&title=1911+AUTO+EASY+FIT+BARREL+KIT

[Hawkeye]

Thanks Iowegan. Feel like a dumb butt.  :? Read the name off the barrel and still typed it with a C.  :lol: I sure like the one I have in my bullseye pistol.
I have been looking for some time for the Kart and didn't even think to look at Brownells.  :shock:
Had a guy call me after posting this thread and he has two of them w/bushings. I think the only way he will sell them is buy both of them with some recoil buff pads and a clark custom sear spring. Don't need the sear spring or recoil buffs but need or want the barrel. :lol:

Mike

[Iowegan]

I could use a Kart ramped barrel & bushing if the price was right and they are new or near new.

The Kart Easy Fit kit comes with the barrel, barrel link, link pin, and NM bushing. My cost is $148 for a new kit ($185 retail).  The buffers cost about a buck each. I don't like them and won't use them on my own guns.  The Clark sear spring is worth about $5 new.

What's the asking price on the barrel kit?

I expect you know you have to mill out your frame to accommodate a ramped barrel (unless it's already milled).

[williamlayton]

Now I am not speaking from personal experience but from what I have read---so take it for what ya paid for it.
Some, especially custom folks, do not favor ramped or supported barrels, especially in .45 cal. The take I have read is that a supported barrel in a .45 is unnecessary as pressure is not that great and ramped barrels are not all that easy to get to feed reliable.
Some high pressure calibers do require them but not all. The 9x23 is a high pressure caliber but the use of Winchester brass makes the use of a supported barrel unnecessary--That said there are a number of manufacturers who make this caliber with a supported barrel and the reports are they feed very well.
Glad to muddy up the water fer ya.
Blessings

[Hawkeye]

I bought all of the stuff from the guy this weekend.  These are not the easy fit Kits. He said he bought the barrels w/bushing at Camp Perry a few years back from a Kart dealer then quit shooting due to tendon problems in his shooting hand/wrist. There is no link or pin. I'm keeping one of the sets. I will PM you Iowegan.

Mike

[BamBams]

As I surmise from yester-year:

The ramped/supported barrel thingiemajig became popular back in the early 80's.  Like many 1911 "improvements" we can thank the PPC shooting crowd for this one also.  Back in that day, seems like yesterday to me, the so-called "problem" was that an awful lot of commonly available 1911 barrels did not have fully supporting chambers.  I recall compensators were showing up everywhere, and well, some folks liked to play around with their max loads.  If you've got a good comp, why not try a faster cartridge and shoot a little flatter right?  Dillon presses were also all the rage (still are).  The dreaded "double-charge" of Bullseye powder was always looming in one's head (still is except now Vhitavouri).

Is a ramped barrel more "reliable"?  The answer:  I think it just depends on whether the pistol was built well in the first place.  I admit that 've never owned a ramped barrel, but my 1911s will shoot 200 rounds, every day for a week, with no cleanings or failures to feed.  The little devils are in the details with a non-ramped setup.  Proper barrel fitting and a properly throated and polished chamber  and feed ramp can do wonders.

In conclusion, I can see no advantage to a ramped barrel unless a person is changing out their barrel anyway for some tangeable reason.  Most 1911 barrels TODAY have fully supported chambers so even this is a non-issue for  folks with modern 1911s. There really is no "right" or "wrong" on this choice, so I think, "Whatever floats your boat!"  As for me, I won't mill my frame unless I've got a darn good reason for doing so.

[Iowegan]

There are a few good reasons to use a ramped barrel. For openers, the only barrels that offer a fully supported chamber are ramped barrels. All others have a little gap at the base. Brass heads are solid up to the case wall witch is mostly contained in a 45 ACP by a standard barrel's chamber.  The only time it might be an issue is with +P loads. If you notice a little "smile" in your brass where the case head meets the wall, then you know what I'm talking about. I have a Series 70 Colt 45 ACP with the factory unaltered barrel that produces smiles. This condition is much more obvious (and dangerous) with higher pressure cartridges such as 38 Super, 40 S&W or 10mm. I've seen several cases blow out causing gun damage.

The biggest reason for a ramped barrel is feeding. Hollow points, SWCs, lead, jacketed, they all feed flawless without distorting the bullet. It's very common for standard barrels to cause a ding in the bullet nose, especially with lead bullets. This opens your groups.  As magazines get dropped in combat shooting, it's normal for the "lips" to get bent a little. With a standard barrel, this almost certainly will cause feeding problems when the cartridge comes out of the magazine a bit "nose down". With a ramped barrel, a bent lip magazine will still feed flawless.

When I build a gun or install a match grade barrel, I always go for ramped barrels (Kart is my favorite). In collector grade guns such as my old Series 70 Colt, I wouldn't consider milling the frame. For competition and defense guns, it makes the gun nearly 100% reliable with any decent ammo.

[Iowegan]

BamBams, I just reread your post and picked up on: "Most 1911 barrels TODAY have fully supported chambers so even this is a non-issue for folks with modern 1911s."

Unless the barrel is ramped, you will never see a fully supported standard barrel, no matter who made it, new or old.  That carved out area at the bottom of the chamber that mates with the frame's ramp creates a void area that does NOT fully support the case.  Remember, the case head will be flush with the barrel's hood when fired. If you remove your barrel, insert a spent case, position the head flush with the hood, then squirt a shot of spray paint at the brass base. Remove the spent case and wipe off the paint from the barrel before it drys. Inspect the case and you will see just how much of the bottom of the case is not supported. It will surprise you! Don't worry about the solid head, it's the case wall that will give out. I've done this trick many time to prove the point. Again, this is NOT a problem for normal loads in quality brass. When you use inferior brass or load in the +P range, smiles may appear.

[BamBams]

Gary,

Without typing a mini-novel, all I'm going to say here is that I believe ramped barrels actually feed less reliably than non-ramped in a 1911.  There is a ton of information out there on 1911 barrels and I'm not going to try and repeat it all here as I don't want to wear out my fingers tonight.

Since I cannot take you to the pistol matches with me every weekend, all I can say right now is that I've got videos of $3000 race guns being shot by the top shooters in the world having FTF problems with ramped barrels. Now I'm not putting down ramped barrels persay, but I'm not convinced they are worth the trouble in a 1911.  With a 38 super or 40 S&W, sure - but not in a .45.

For great discussions regarding ramped vs. non-ramped in 1911s, you can read posts by some of the world's greatest 1911 gunsmiths at www.pistolsmith.com and www.1911.org.   Just do some searching on 1911 ramped barrel.  Most of what the experts say on these forums has also been what I've seen in real life.

[Iowegan]

BamBams, I agree that 45 ACPs rarely blow a case. I have only seen a few in my 40+ years of shooting them. The blown cases were probably old brass that had been reloaded once too many times or extra hot loads.  So case blowouts are pretty much a non-issue. And yes, ramped barrels got popular because of 38 Supers and other high pressure rounds that like to blow cases in unsupported barrels. When shooters realized how well they worked in other cartridges, they started getting popular in 45 ACP. I don't imply that ramped barrels are necessary, they just work better.

It's obvious from your remarks that you don't understand what "fully supported" means. It's not like a rifle where the complete case is surrounded by the gun's chamber. When the walls of the case are completely surrounded by the chamber, it is said to be fully supported. The extractor operates on the rim ... solid brass ... not even close to the case wall. What sticks out under the hood is solid brass head ... not case wall. What is exposed just above the bottom of the throat is mostly solid brass head ... but, here's where the non-supported area is exposed. When you throat a barrel to feed better, you remove metal that was intended to support the case walls. In a ramped barrel, this area fully surrounds the case wall leaving only the solid head exposed, thus fully supported.

What you say about properly throated chambers is very true. They do feed well. Problem is, many don't come from the factory that way and require some maintenance before they will feed SWCs and JHPs or not ding lead noses. Ramped barrels feed everything quite well. If malfunctions are noted, they are attributed to something other than feeding, ie: extractor, ejector, binding slide or bushing, etc.

Try one some day before you form an opinion. They really do work.

[BamBams]

HA!  I think we're playing tag here.  I deleted my original reply to you because it just seemed a bit acrimonious to me, and I didn't intend to come across that way at all.

If I ever take possession of a 1911 with a ramped barrel, I'll be very happy to put it through my kind of shooting hell!  *smiles*

I do understand what fully supported means, but I did a really poor job of conveying my type of logic on this issue which is another reason why I deleted my post.   From what I can tell though, even a ramped barrel does not fully support the case as the entire head is exposed to leave room for the extractor to grab the rim.  Do you see what I'm saying?  LOL!

Are you familiar with Dane Burns?

http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=14975&highlight=ramped+barrel+1911

[Savage]

The case rim is always exposed in a supported chamber or unsupported.. Case failures occur in the unsupported case wall where it joins the web. That's directly over the feed ramp of non ramped barrels.
Having personally witnessed at least four of these events, I assure you it does happen! Even in the low pressure 45ACP. Usually it just blows the magazine out and leaves you standing there in disbelief. One event I witnessed was a bit more dramatic when the grips were reduced to splinters. Yes, there was injury. These occurences are quite rare and are out of my thoughts as I shoot my nonramped 1911s, If I were in the market for a new 1911 platform IPSC gun, it would have a ramped barrel.
Not just for safety, but for the less radical feed angle for increased reliability. All that said, either one will work, but there are advantages to the ramped barrels.
Savage

[Iowegan]

BamBams, I guess we'll leave it with "I like um' and you don't." I can respect that.