Author Topic: LeMat Revolver  (Read 5489 times)

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Offline mec

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LeMat Revolver
« on: June 07, 2004, 05:35:06 PM »
This is my second Lemat with a number of years between manufacture. They share some important similarities but the new one has a lighter trigger and hits just a bit closer to point of aim.

These revolvers cycle very well with no cap hang ups or other malfunctions during fairly long shooting sessions.  In order to get to shot barrel to work well, I had to slightly sharpent the nipple and it was also necessary to remove the nipple, prime and re-insert the cone to get first hit cap ignition and prevent hangfires.  
The rammer with inserted ramrod presents problems with recoil dislodging it and flinging the shot barrel ramrod out on the ground.  This can be prevented by wedging the rod inside of the hollow ram handle and tightening the rammer screw to reduce or eliminate the thing flipping up under recoil.

I've successfully used 60 gr equivalent with an approximate load of 7/8 oz shot.  Seven .315 balls will stay on the chest of a silhouette target at 20 feet but the pattern is very lean by 30 feet.  A charge of  #8 shot is dense enough for small game at 30 ft.



My first pistol would get 820 fps with a .451 ball over 30 gr/vol of pyrodex. This one averaged 701 with 30 grains of fffg and 699 with the same volume of pyrodex.  Chamber mouths are .448 with land to land measurements of .445".  


The sideplate bushing/nut required a specially ground screwdriver  blade for removal (split spanner} and a narrow ground blade was needed for the hammer screw.  These are impact driver tight. I had to heat the receiver and apply much force to turn first the side plate bushing and then the hammer screw.  - after removal of the mainspring

http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/lemathammer.jpg[/img]

Once past initial dissassembly, there are no problems and the gun goes back together without surprises.  

Much of the styling elements are common to the Webley Longspur, The Adams and Kerr Revolvers.  The hammer spring is necessarily strong to ignite the shot barrel. A bit of practice is required to get up to reasonable speed for repeat shots.  Originals frequently display broken hammer nose springs or the hammer nose is missing entirely.  The u-spring on the barrel that retains the rammer is also frequently missing.  

The grip angle is very acute and causes complaints from shooters who's main experience is with colts.  Nevertheless, it hangs steady on target and is capable of very good practical off-hand accuracy.

Many owner pressage their comments with " I.ve had one for a couple of years, but don't shoot it much. "  Apparently, and probably because they are not shot very much,  there arn't many spare parts in the United States.  Pietta told me that VTI GunParts " has all the parts you will need."  As a matter of fact, they have NO parts and are trying to back order some for me.  Dixie Gun Works lists several parts but they frequently zero out parts from orders and I haven't tested them yet.  Notably absent is any listing of the hand or hand spring.    

Navy arms tried to get an order of parts for me but after two years Pietta had not sent them.

This is an exceptionally well made revolver - well engineered except for the loading lever set-up.  It is presently being featured in several movies which generally sparks quite a bit of interest.  I certainly hope that Pietta will step forward and provide decent customer support.
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Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline Naphtali

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LeMat Revolver
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2004, 04:39:51 AM »
Finally a LeMat guy!

I own two of them. I have some set-up problems I hope you can help me solve.

1. Both pistols are so tightly assembled the barrels' assemblies appear to be forge-welded in place. How can I disassemble?

2. How to load center barrel so as to hold shot charge in place for long periods. I hike and ride mules. I am concerned the vertical motion will loosen this charge and render it into a grenade.

3. Have you experimented with revolver loads -- that is, RB and conical ball? Have you identified both optimum propellant-projectile charges AND maximum for LeMats? I also own several Pietta 1858 Remington "shooters'" grade target revolvers. Apparently LeMats and these (not other 1858s) revolvers use .456-.457-inch projectiles. But metal mass surrounding 1858 chambers is significantly greater than for LeMat. . . . Am I rambling??

4. Have you had to adjust timing of the LeMat yet? Please describe the process if yes.

5. I have small hands. I positively cannot cock the hammer one-handed. In the Forgett book there are numerous photographs of many different LeMat grip-hammer configurations. Are you aware of anyone altering these configurations? Anyone reducing hammer spring tension/strength?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline mec

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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2004, 07:28:01 AM »
By the way. The first paragraph should read " SHOULDN"T be a barrier."


The remington group is one-handed standing at 60ft
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Offline mec

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LeMat Revolver
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2004, 07:31:05 AM »
Let me see.... In spite of my wealth of ignorance on the subject I'm going to take a shot at your points one by one.  I used to be a gun writer, so my lack of information in some areas shouldnt be a barrier:
 own two of them. I have some set-up problems I hope you can help me solve.

1. Both pistols are so tightly assembled the barrels' assemblies appear to be forge-welded in place. How can I disassemble?

* I've had two of them and rifled barrel assembly unscrewed readily on both. The little lever at the bottom of the frame locks s the assembly to the frame and, on a brand new one takes some pressure to move downward.  Be sure to put the hammer at half cock, then just grab the barrel and do the counter-clockwise thing.  On my first one, I wasn't even aware that the shot barrel would unscrew and found it out by mistake after shooting this new one a bit.  

The good news is that, while the screws on these and other replicas range from extra loose to air-hammer tight, they are not welded or staked in-however much it may seem that they are.  

The side plate (donut shaped) bushing screw on the left frame is split with the nose of the hammer screw sticking through.  I had to file down the screwdriver blade in the picture to fit and then hope that it would not break under the massive torque required to loosen the screw.  I didn't heat the frame up nearly as hot as some recommend for this but did pass it back and forth over an open flame a couple of times.  

The hammer screw is also under tremendous torque and is one of those narrow, shallow deals that so delight custom gun makers because no 20th century screwdrivers will fit.  I thinned a screwdriver blad being careful to maintian the square edges at the tip and again was lucky enough for it to work.   Before undoing either of these screws, remove the mainspring as it applies some degree of pressure to the hammer.*

2. How to load center barrel so as to hold shot charge in place for long periods. I hike and ride mules. I am concerned the vertical motion will loosen this charge and render it into a grenade.
*
I worry about that too. Best bet would be to check it with a ramrod from time to time to see if it has jarred loose.  I found that news paper used as wadding puts a tight grip on the charge /shot column if you pack it in tight. Recoil so so mild with the .44 chambers that it might not prove a problem. I have more work to do on this.   I did find on both guns that ignition of the shot barrel is problematic because of short hammer fall.  The first gun would fire but only if the web of my hand did not even touch the rear of the hammer. It seems like the touch would speed the hammer up- but it slowed it instead.   My current one was taking two strikes to set off the primer until I took a file and increased the bevel on the opening of the shot barrel nipple.  So far, it works fine.   I also learned that I have to remove the nipple, dribble in pyrodex to prime and replace the nipple for positive ignition free of hang -fires. *

3. Have you experimented with revolver loads -- that is, RB and conical ball? Have you identified both optimum propellant-projectile charges AND maximum for LeMats? I also own several Pietta 1858 Remington "shooters'" grade target revolvers. Apparently LeMats and these (not other 1858s) revolvers use .456-.457-inch projectiles. But metal mass surrounding 1858 chambers is significantly greater than for LeMat. . . . Am I rambling??

* Its a rambling subject.  and the answer is a qualified yes.    On the lemat, the pietta book recommends .454 balls.  I measured my chamber mouths at .448 and find that .451s seat perfectly well and shave a ring off the bullet.  .454s would just overstress the ram.  Best to get one of the cheap but nice chinese communist calipers and check your own gun to make sure.  I am aware that the experts claim best accuracy with various whoop-de-doos such as wool or felt wads under the bullet, cream of wheat fillers between the ball and a light charge etc.   I have shot these loads but do not find them interesting.  The wads actually produced wider velocity spreads than  ball down on powder. The old guys used a charge that fills the chamber with enough room left to seat the ball and this method leaves a bit of wiggle room for lighter charges if you like.  Here's a remington load I shot with the traditionl loading method and I've gotten the same degree of accuracy with Colts in the various calibers:

The load is a 30 grain measure with the volumn equivalent of pyrodex P.
Group is one handed standing at 60 ft.

As to powders.  FFFG works better than FFG even with the walkers and 50 caliber single shots.  One chronograph session will have goex fffg getting higher velocities and/ or better shot to shot consistency than pyrodex but the next might find pyrodex doing a bit better in both or either departments.  

Hodgdons 777 is higher energy and gets markedly higer velocities when full loads are used.  It also has produced some extremely wild velocity variations in my guns.  When I reduce the loads with this stuff, the velocities remain high and the shot to shot variation  becomes much more consistent.   One of my favorite loads for my .50 Great plains is 20 grains/vol. equivalent and the .490 ball.  It is extra accurate and gets the same low 800 fps velocities as 30 grains of pyrodex p.  This current Lemat was getting 700 fps with Pyrodex and fffg from the 30 grain spout and 815f with 777 from a 24 grain spout.  

4. Have you had to adjust timing of the LeMat yet? Please describe the process if yes.
The tiny screw on the right side of the frame presses against the internal sear which is a flat, circular spring with a sear on the end.  It can be screwed in and  out to effect timing.- I guess. I haven't done it.  With this revolver, the cylinder bolt drops into the locking points with  a "Snap" at full cock and is locking up consistently.  It appears somewhat glitchy until I get the grips on and then works perfectly.  I won't worry about it until I have to.- Hopefully, never.

5. I have small hands. I positively cannot cock the hammer one-handed. In the Forgett book there are numerous photographs of many different LeMat grip-hammer configurations. Are you aware of anyone altering these configurations? Anyone reducing hammer spring tension/strength?

* Reducing the spring tension would dewat the shot barrel to the point that it wouldn't go off (except occasionally when you don't want it to.) With that short throw, it needs all the whack it can get.  My first Lemat had a pretty heavy trigger and this one is lighter.  I believe that the first one also had a more massive mainspring but, even so, it was boarderline on shot barrel ignition.  

As to the small hands- grip thing- I have medium to medium large hands I suppose and really don't know. I do know that the Hammer stacks and is a bit hard to cock for me too.  Best plan is to shift grip get a good thumb contact on the hammer and cock on the downswing.  

In the same vein, the grip angle is steep and feels wierd if you are used to shooting just about any other handgun.  Once I got past that, I learned that it hangs on target well and actually points very well too.  The overall configuration did a lot toward letting me shoot accurate off-hand groups with my First Lemat which had a heavier trigger.   I would think with an open mind and a small amount of practice the shooters who consider the lemat awkward and not up to colt standards would find out that the revolver possesses good shooting qualities.

Hope all this makes some sense- I had fun writing it. And by the way, Its been a couple of decades since I've read a Fadala book or magazine article. Does he provide any interesting shooting information on the Lemat?
Guns are like the vote. They work best when everybody has one
Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline mec

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Bullets
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2004, 07:46:39 AM »
I've tried several different bullets in various revolvers.  We got 4-5" 60 foot groups with Colt Dragoons and a couple of different designs.  This was roughly double what we got with round ball.

Colt navy will keep off-hand shots within the 1 foot five ring of the texas police target at 25 yards but are not nearly as accurate as round ball.9This is with the traditional bullet cast from a dixie replica mould)

60 grain .31s went into 6-7" offhand group from 50 feet well within the five ring butagan, not nearly as accurate as a round ball.

Dixie has a replica bullet mould for the Lemat. It looks good and has a wide lube groove.  Unfortuately, it will not fit under the rammer an cannot be used.

I didn't mention American Pioneer powder above.  It is much milder than the other ones listed.   A chamber full of it in a .31 will get BB gun velocities and the balls bounce off tin cans.  Its a bit better but still very slow in the bigger guns.  I kind of like it for knocking around and velocities are consistent and groups small.
Guns are like the vote. They work best when everybody has one
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Offline Naphtali

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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2004, 02:48:35 AM »
mec:

I had similar problems getting Pietta parts on special order. I attempted to do it the easy way, via Dixie Gunworks. The few dealings I have had, or attempted, with Dixie have been unfortunate.

My next stop was to go directly to Pietta. They will accommodate you on a parts shipment that DOES NOT INCLUDE frames, barrels, cylinders for revolvers. The cost of shipping is very high for a special order as I describe.Following is my guy in Italy.
*****
Alfonso Puzzo, Export Manager
F. IIi Pietta
Via Mandolossa, 102
25064 Gussago
Brescia
Italy

Mr. Puzzo:
Thank you for your letter dated November 30, 1998, that responded to my query to purchase three (3) RXDT44, 1858 Remington .44-caliber stainless steel percussion revolvers for competition shooters, and additional spare parts. To refresh your memory, I quote in context from your letter.

… We are not allowed, by the Italian gun laws, to send via postal service, or UPS, or FED. EXPRESS, or DHL, the frames, barrels and cylinders of our black powder revolvers. To send these parts by air-freight through our forwarders in Brescia, would cost you a fortune.

May we take the liberty to suggest you to get in touch with our main Importer and Distributor of SPARE PARTS: …

After much difficulty and more than six months, Regina Jowers, Dixie Gun Works’ purchasing manager, furnished a “special order” quote that was unacceptable. I want to purchase the merchandise directly from you if your price with air-freight is acceptable. . . .
*****
Finally, I went to Cabela’s -- specifically, Ross Bryant. They are distributors for Pietta products. I must emphasize they did not catalog what I wanted. When they filled my order, it was a special order that was not available in the United States. The cost was high, but compared with Dixie’s quote, it was about 1/3 the price. My guy at Cabela's follows.

Ross Bryant, Products Specialist
Cabela’s
301 West Eugene Avenue
North Platte, NB 69101
*****
To obtain LeMat parts that are normally difficult to get in this country:

1. Try going through Cabela’s first.

2. You CAN obtain a special order directly from Pietta, but it’s gonna cost you.

3. If you decide to order parts -- just in case -- let me know. I’ll go in with you. This should reduce our product cost significantly by reducing international shipping costs.
*****************
*****************
My LeMats are, I think, Navy models. They have a "pull pin" release where yours has a pivoting lever. Pulling the pin and 35 cents will get you coffee. However, I believe your statement that the pistols appear to have been assembled by people who have run amok with a power wrench, safeties OFF, explains much.
******
I must leave for a while. I'll finish my thoughts within 48 hours.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline mec

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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2004, 03:24:19 AM »
I have definately saved your post ref LeMat Parts.  I have heard recently that Cabela's has stopped importing the LeMats and this may be the main reason.  

So far, I have placed a back order with VTI Parts and contacted Alessandro Pietta who acknowleged the order.   I am completely willing to pay a heavy sweetening fee-shipping fee-nuisance fee or whatever to get spare parts.  Otherwise, sooner or later the revolver becomes a paperweight.

This is just a small part of a long-term project I am working on- a non-industry driven book on percussion arms including historical perspective and practical handling/maintenance of the available replicas.  I would hope that decent customer support emerges but if not, the absence of it will suit my purposes just about as well.

What I seem to be learning so far is that parts and service are much more available than in the past.  I have found a couple of reliable sources for such oddities as the Texas Patterson  and the small pocket model colt copies. (Both from Ubertil).

The process of finding parts is easier with the availability of the internet. It's been a while since I revisited any of the industry driven Muzzleloading books but, as I recall, it is possible to read quite a few of them as well as the gun magazine articles and not learn that parts breakage and availability of spares is even a concern.

I have received a couple of parts orders from Dixie and they never fail report something out of stock.  In one case- the wedge screw for the Colt Navy by Uberti.  This would seem a most common part, yet they are out of them.  
On the other hand, Guns ordered from Dixie travel 1500 miles and arrive the next day. Can't complain about that.
Guns are like the vote. They work best when everybody has one
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Offline Dan Chamberlain

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Lemat and Remington
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2004, 02:24:52 PM »
Mec;

Great photos!  I've had some success writing about historical firearms, but my photo library is limited to Colt style firearms.  Is there any chance you'd consider letting me have a couple of "publishable" photos of that LeMat and Remington?  If so, let send me an email at:

danchamberlain@hotmail.com
danchamberlain@charter.net

I would give you the appropriate photo credits if an article was accepted using your photos.  

Dan C

Offline Naphtali

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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2004, 09:09:04 AM »
Sorry it took so long to get back.
***
Regarding the center barrel, I am considering buying a musket cap converter nipple. Musket caps are no more difficult to ignite than #11s, but the amount of energy available is substantially greater.

I’ve also been considering using two 20-bore over-shot wads to control shot movement. ID of center barrel is sub-20-bore -- nice tight fit.
******
I don’t have a problem pointing or shooting my LeMats. I find them comfortable, similar to a dueling pistol. I am uncomfortable relying on the weight of the revolver to cock the hammer -- with a downward throw.

If hammer spring must remain stiff to ignite center barrel’s cap, then altering the hammer spur to get a decent grip on it will make zero difference. I still will be unable to cock one-handed -- except by “throwing down.”
*******
Something I’ve wanted to try is to enter a “bowling pin” pistol shoot with the LeMat. Shooting two-handed, cocking is no problem. And there are five pins per relay. Revolver bullets will be reasonably efficient. And if one pin is knocked over, but stays on the table, the center barrel will be “fun at the old ball park.” I wonder if other participant would chuckle, groan, or cry foul?
************
The 1858 Remingtons I mentioned earlier are significantly different from others being manufactured -- Pietta, or any other manufacturer.

1. Rifling is accelerating twist.

2. Chambers’ and barrel’s bore are larger ID than usual -- about .004-inch.

3. Hammer-trigger assembly, hand, cylinder, barrel, and several other parts are purpose-built for this revolver and will not interchange with other Pietta 1858 Remingtons.

When I ordered them, only the non-stainless steel version was available in this country. I believe that the stainless version is currently available.

The sole purpose for manufacture of this variation is for exceptional accuracy in international percussion cap lock revolver matches.

Having been unable, so far, to disassemble my LeMats, I cannot confirm your evaluation of their quality. But I like to believe that the quality is comparable with their other limited edition revolver. The closest quality analogy I can furnish is that the RXDT44 (Remington special 1858) is as well assembled as pre-War S&W .357 Magnums or 1950s-era Colt Pythons.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline mec

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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2004, 11:10:36 AM »
Dan Chamberlain.  Just saw your post regarding pictures.  I've sent you an e-mail at your charter address.  I have been collecting pictures in three sizes ranging from 640-480 on up to the 2278/1700 4 megapixil range.  

Probably will publish some of these in a book in black and white and do not see any problem if we happened to duplicate a couple.  you can check your e-mail about details and a small sample of pictures on a photo host site.

Don' t really care about credit in articles as I have published enough of my own for all the excitement to have worn off.
Guns are like the vote. They work best when everybody has one
Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline Dan Chamberlain

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Got your email
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2004, 03:00:34 AM »
Photography is the hardest part of that business!  I was devastated my first article when they didn't use any of my photos!  They used photos from their library!  I'm glad they took the article, but it made me look at my art more critically!  

What kind of camera do you use for your shots?  I was 35mm slides, but have changed over to a 4mp Cannon digital.  

Dan

Offline mec

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LeMat Revolver
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2004, 11:33:19 AM »
I have a 4.1 MP sony d?? 85 S . I started out shooting slides and went to this.  It automatically records shots in the Jpeg mode and is capable of shooting several sizes of picture from 6440x480 up to 2272x 1701. Lense is a zeiss sonar and very good quality.  Lately I have learned that the mega pixil count is higher and the pictures do not loose quality under compression/opening and saving if saved in tiff mode.  

I have seen some of the larger pictures i have taken reproduced on magazine pages and the quality is very fine.  the pictures generally do not exceed 4" on the largest side. These were submitted in Jpeg mode and I got occasional complaints from the editor that they were "too small" "Photoshopped" etc.  I have seen some of the pictures in print that were the subject of these complaints and they looked fine.  

Photography is one of the aspects of writing that I enjoyed the most and confusing feedback from the editors is one of the factors that made me loose interest in writing as a hobby.  One thing I believe I learned is that they want the largest possible pictures for reproductions in the magazines.  This would square with what camera specialists have told me about the smaller pictures being good for standard prints while the 2278x .. sizes are adequate for color paper reproduction of 8x10 or 11x14 prints.

In general, I use diffuse oudoor lighting free of distinct shadows and frequently find flash pictures coming out very good.  One thing about the digitals, you can bracket, check and retake pictures until you get something that works for you.  The sony camera functions in several modes but i leave mine on automatic and use the exposure value wheel to arrive at the right exposure. Also use the vieing screen to zoom in and check image quality - a magnifying glass is handy for this.

nice thing about this rig is the good close-up capability in the macro mode
Guns are like the vote. They work best when everybody has one
Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline Dan Chamberlain

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Photos
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2004, 04:33:17 PM »
The heck with the photos...who did the engraving?

Just kidding.  thanks for the info.  I've had to cover my flash with tissue paper on occasion to diffuse the flash.  That works fairly well.  I've also turned off the flash and put the camera on a tripod and it exposes well with good light.  It's all a learning experience.  

Catch you later.

Dan