Series 70 or 80?

[357mag]

I am just becoming interested in 1911's and have noticed that there are 70 and 80 series and was wondering what the differences are between them and if one series is better to have than the other?

[dclark]

Over the years there have been a number of variations to the 1911 in terms of sights, safeties, hammers, frames and slide serrations.  One of the major changes was the addition of a "firing pin safety" in the 80 series Colts.  That safety has been also used in a "similar" fashion in the latest series Kimbers and S&W's.  A large number of people believe that the "safety" feature 0n the series 80 is unnecessary.  Many remove it.

The series 70's did not have that "firing pin safety", but utilized a "fingered bushing" as opposed to a "solid bushing" in the earlier, and later, Colts.  The fingers have a tendency to break if not properly fit.  Many folks replace them.

The earlier Colts had neither of these features, although there are a few with a similar firing pin safety called the Schwartz safety.  

In general terms, the distinction is between the ones with a "firing pin safety" and without such.  Which is "better" has been, and will be, argued for years.

dclark

[Dusty Miller]

DON'T EVER REMOVE A SAFETY FROM A HANDGUN!!!!!!!!!!!!  If you ever have to use that gun in a self-defense situation that missing safety could be your undoing.  Liberal prosecuters just LOVE to grab onto that sort of thing and hang somebody who has made a legitimate self-defense shoot.

[Iowegan]

I wouldn't recommend removing the Series 80 firing pin safety either. Not because of liability, but it truly is a safety device. Some 1911s will occasionally slam fire. This happens when the slide slams home then comes to an abrupt halt. The firing pin will continue movement and leave a slight dent in the primer. If you just happen to have a sensitive primer, BANG. This happens more with Commander or Officer sized slides due to stronger recoil springs. Heavier firing pin springs will help but are not 100%.  Besides slam fires, the firing pin safety prevents the gun from going off should it be dropped. The only way it will fire is to have the trigger pulled.

I've heard many shooters complain about a heavier trigger or more creep with a series 80. If you polish the friction points on the Series 80 parts, you can't tell the difference between a series 70 and 80. Personally, I prefer the series 80 safety.

[BamBams]

Okay, I'll offer a differing opinion.

The series 80 safety is a totally unncessary contraption that just adds something else to the gun that can go wrong.  As if the gun wasn't already totally safe without it?

Let's see here:  With a series 70 model, you've already got THREE safety devices.  The thumb safety, the grip safety, and the half cock notch. The series 80 safety is kaka.

For a slam-fire to occur, something is either out of whack with the firing pin, or the firing pin spring.

Proper removal does not make this pistol unsafe in any way, shape or form.

If a shooting is justified, nobody in a court room is going to care one bit about whether or not you disabled the safety or what type of ammo you've shot.  This is Massad Ayoob paranoia.  I challenge anyone who reads this to cite me a single case where either of these things has ever been used by a prosecution in the history of this country.

[Mikey]

I will agree with Bam Bams here, especially in regrds to his last statement about Massad Ayoob paranoia.

I once wrote that gentlemen about removing the improperly functioning safety on my Type 54-1 Tokarev, describing in detail the inherent design safety features of that hammer/trigger system.  His response was that 'unless you know more about guns that current handgun manufacturers you shouldn't...'.  Well, I must know more about those things than either he or the current manufacturers because within days of getting his response the Shotgun News ran a detailed article about the Tokarev and its safeties and stated that the post-initial-design of including a slide safety was a BATF requirement.  I kept that article just in case I needed courtroom documentation.  

I will also agree with the Iowegan regarding the fine tuning of those internal safety parts of the Series 80 pistols.  The first concerns when they came out were for the heavier trigger pull they created but I have handled some that are very smooth and the difference can not be discerned.  Also, I have never had a slam fire on any of my 1911s, Commanders or full size.  

If you may be concerned about a slam fire, run a firing pin test with a pencil eraser (see posts below) to assure yours is not too long.  Just my 3 cents worth.  Mikey.

[williamlayton]

Adding some more thought to this equation, pro bono.
Many of the opposition/much of the " have a concern with the complication of the series 80 safety and say that under stress it can be a cause of malfunction.
Other forums which have full time smiths responding to thoughts will, without so much as a warning/disclaimer remove the series 80 safety and some will even go as far as restoring the 1911 to original function.
I am not in either camp, well much, anyway, but I do not see the need for as many safety features as the series 80 has----And I really don't think the makers do either.
Last I checked, LAWS never stopped accidents from happening or Idiots/stupidity from overcoming anything.
Blessings

[Iowegan]

The firing pin safety is not essential.  Colt now makes new Series 70s without the extra parts so that tells me something. However, in a Series 80, I would rather smooth up the parts than remove them. If you do remove them, a spacer must be added else the sear and hammer will drift. I've seen hundreds of Series 80s and have never seen or heard of a single incident where the firing pin safety failed or caused a problem.  I consider any safety feature worth having as long as it doesn't create other problems.

I had a Series 70 Colt LW Commander that would leave a small dent in the primer each time it cycled. It slam fired on me once when I was charging the first round. I replaced the firing pin with a light weight titanium pin and the dents went away. I just finished working on a customer's fairly new full size Charles Daly that would occasionally "double tap". Things happen to fast to determine if the hammer was releasing or the firing pin was slamming forward. I removed the chambered live round after cycling it and found a significant dent in the primer. After removing the firing pin and spring, it was obvious that the spring was way too soft. I replaced the spring with a Colt part. The primer dents stopped and no more double taps.  Charles Daly is not in the same quality class as most 1911s but it did slam fire!

As for the other safety features of a 1911, the thumb safety and grip safety address totally different issues.  John Browning did a good job when he designed the piece. It's probably one of the safest autos ever made, with or without the added firing pin safety.

[BamBams]

Yep Gary.  I'm definitely a believer in stronger firing pin springs than what comes stock for most 1911s.  The Wolff's "extra power" have worked fine for me, and so far, no problems.  I don't trust the titanium firing pins too much yet.  I'm always be afraid of breakage with titanium. I used to work with that stuff back in my old Air Force days and have seen titanium snap a time or two - hence my current hesitation in a "reliability equation."

[Iowegan]

Know what ya mean... I'm not sold on titanium either. It was a "fix" on the Commander and seemed to hold up well. I sold the gun a few years later and have never used a TI since. Besides, they're pricy little things. On that particular Commander, a Wolff spring wouldn't prevent minor primer dents. Got real paranoid when the gun went bang on the firing line. Makes you look like a fool besides scaring the hell out of everybody. I had everyone at the event looking at their primers. A few shooters found light dents.

I've seen a few other 1911s have slam fires but never a Series 80 where the firing pin is held back until the slide goes to battery. By then, the firing pin momentum is gone.