Mosin Nagant Model 44 in accuracy?

[His lordship.]

I bought a second Mosin Nagant Model 44, like new, 1948 production carbine about 2 months ago, sold my 1946 vintage arsenal rebuild Model 44 about two years ago, so I can compare the two as my memory allows.  As I recall my 1946 model was ok in accuracy, but nothing to get excited about.  My 1948 model is off on the windage adjustment, and I had to set the rear site up to the #"5" setting to get the elevation on.  But now that I know what ammo it likes (Hungarian light ball), I can see what it does at 100 and 50 yards.  The other brands were really off on windage and accuracy, my sympathies to the user of this rifle if he had to use what ever the sargent issues him.  

I have a 1942 wartime, roughly machined, Iszchevks model 91/30 long barrel that is definately more accurate than the nicely fitted and finished Model 44.  

My question is...just how accurate are these Model 44's supposed to be?  I had read that they were intended to replace the long barrel model 91/30 in Soviet army service due to the overall shorter length.  Both of my Model 44s would be quite a stretch to hit a soldier standing in the open in the 250 yards + realm.  My Model 44 (1948) groups were around 3" at 50 yards, and at 100 yards, a 6" to 7" spread, and I had to aim 15" to the left to get it to the impact area that I wanted at 100 yards.

Does anybody have some positive results with their Model 44s that rival the long barrel Model 91/30, etc?

Thanks.

[RB Rooson]

Wow, Chris, I almost don't know what to say?  I've never had to shoot ANYTHING at 250 yards (Heck, I dunno if I can even see that far!).  

The Mosin-Nagant M44 that I got is pretty good up to 100 yards (4" group) and alot depends on what ammunition I use.  I find the Czech ammo to be preferable.....

My M44 has a "K in a Circle" proof stamp and the Mosin-Nagant website indicated that this was indicative of the Russian Arsenal having accuracy tested the rifle and it passed.  l don't know what distances they were testing at, but I am very pleased with it as a brush gun (10 - 100 yard range.).

AND BESIDES it's just a bloody 60-year old, $65.00 rifle what can anyone really expect?

I have photos of Milsurp rifles posted in this forum under "Photos that I promised......"

[1911crazy]

Chris;  I have a brand new russian M44 to it was unshot/unissued when i got it.  I only shot it once and it sounds like yours too. It shot about 15" to the left and at 10 oclock but it did group tight at 100yds ya about 5"!!!!  I did move the front site to the left but i never went back to the range with it yet.  Its been growing roots in the safe all these years.      BigBill

I hope Mikey or S.Sumner chimes in since they has more experience with them.

[S.S.]

I have had problems with all of the sights on
my Nagant carbines My M38 has the rear sight set
to 700 meters to get it to shoot accurately at 100
meters. By accurate I mean hitting a 9 inch paper plate
at 100 meters! None of my Nagant carbines are tack drivers.

[Mikey]

Doggone it, I wrote up this detailed response about M44 accuracy and then could not post it.  

Anyway, a lot may have to do with the bayonet assembly if yor rifle has one or the way the barrel and action fit within the stock.  If you have a bayonet assembly, my brother and I found with his M44 that if you remove the bayonet, it groups better and if you remove the assembly base (leave the part with the pins) it groups even better yet.  Also, check the fit of the stock to the barrel and action.  We found with ours that we had to relieve quite a bit of stock at the end of the forened as it was pressing hard on the barrel.  That helped quite a bit.  Then we bedded the action and that M44 started grouping excellently.  His first shot left about a foot and his groups were watermelon size.  

Also, your choice of ammo has a lot to do with your accuracy (not to mention the condition of the bore) but we found that Barnaul ammo shot low, mil-surp was all over the place and S&B (200 gn) grouped well enough for 200 yd open sight shots.  

If your shoots so low that you need to raise your rear sights to 5 or 700m, then you need to work down that front sight to bring the poi to poa at 100 m, then your sights will work properly.  Also, as I recall, the front sight may be drift adjustable.  HTH.  Mikey.

[His lordship.]

Thanks for the input on the carbines.  I guess I like the challenge of trying to get all of my rifles to shoot well.  I looked closer at the Model 44 today and the barrel is not free floating like my Model 91/30 is, so there may be some binding pressure there on the barrel end.  I tried shooting both of the Model 44's that I have owned with and without the bayonet fixed, I had read that they were intended to be shot with the bayonet out.  With the bayonet folded, I use a small piece of rag next to the blade to keep it from banging against the side of the gun when it recoils as there is some play there.

It also has the circled "K" on the receiver for the accuracy acknowledgement.  It is really a nice specimen as far as collecting goes, nice like-new condition, and the last year the Soviets made them in Russia.

The Czech surplus stuff binds in the chamber of both of my rifles when the round is shot, this is a common problem from what other people have said on the Czech surplus steel cased cartridges, but it is one of the more accurate loads for the two guns.  I have not used the Barnaul or the Sellier and Bellot loads, I will attend the upcoming  guns shows and try some different stuff.

There is a variant called the 91/59 that may shoot better.  It is a cut-down of a regular 91/30 into a look alike of the Model 38.  I wonder if it is a good shooter as I could pick up one of those and see if it is any good.  Anybody have a 91/59, is it accurate?

I have owned numerous Mauser rifles over the years and they were generally very accurate.  The barrels do not seem to be free-floating as the typical Mauser nose cap is tight on them.  I wonder if there is some air gap inside that keeps the pressure off the barrel?

Thanks.

[1911crazy]

Chris;  The challange is up to us now to make them shoot accurate.  There is a difference between an unissued/brand new M44 as opposed to a well used military rifle that had the bugs taken out of the accuracy already.  I also have two M91/59's and an M38 mosin too which i never have shot yet either.  Since there is no bayo on the front of them it maybe a plus who knows.  Does your M44 have a laminated stock?? If it does it will have two stock reinforcement bolts one near the trigger as well as in the front forearm.                                     BigBill

[His lordship.]

I was checking another Mosin Nagant forum and got lucky as my question was offered today with responses.  Apparently, the long barreled Model 91/30's are about 2.25 times more preferred over the Model 38/44 in the shooter's opinions.  The main supporters for the shorter rifles were hunters who liked the short and compact guns for carry in brushy areas like the hog hunters down in Florida, etc.

As to why the Soviets would go with an inferior accuracy gun, but more compact to carry, the Russian army is different in tactical concepts than the US.  For instance they went with the Makarov pistol, nice pocket gun, but not in the league as a Model 1911 Colt, or the Browning High Power P-35, but they felt that the officer should concentrate his efforts on whole unit management instead if individual self-defense.  The Russian and communist Chinese have a history of infantry death waves, long cold steel out in front of the muzzle, firing their rifles from the hip charging enmasse.  :shock: Also, their sniper rifle was the long barreled Model 91/30 until the Dragonov replaced it in the 1960's.

But, I will keep on trying different ammo to improve my Model 44.

[1911crazy]

Chris;   I chose the russian M44 for a tree stand gun its short which makes it great for hunting in tight spots too and with the 7.62x54 round its no loss for power too.  I don't think there is a better game getter buy out there. You match this gun up with Barnaul "SP" ammo which the total is under $100 and your in the woods hunting really cheap. And yes the 91/30's were sniper rifles, along with the SVT-40 Tokarev which had problems, but the problems were caused by them not being taught how to maintain these first semi auto rifes being new to them.  They need more care and maintanence than the bolt actions to stay reliable.  I guess these rifles were just thrown at them with no training about them.  The two Tokarev's I have are reliable as an sks they have never failed me yet. Then the dragunov came along which is one awesome sniper rifle too. But getting back to the M44 there's nothing wrong with it but just sighting it in like we do with any new rifle just take your time and it will work great I'm sure.  I think its fun to figure out what wrong with it and then all of a sudden its in the ten ring constantly!!!!!                         BigBill